Tissot Australian Grand Prix 2013

Jumkie

3651101382491115

haha, wait I thought u were gone. MM should have been doing exactly what u describe after he attempted murder on Wilairot. Seriously. Sat out the rest of the season. The reason we are still talking about Marc being dangerous is because no impression has been made. Quite the contrary, hes got more defiant. Even after the last episode he declared he would not change. So absolutely he should be docked another point on his license. The only thing is that would create a danger for those he would have to pass starting from the back.


I do enjoy myself buddy. I wasn't the one threatening to leave the circuit had this happened while in the stands. That was U.

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Marquez has accomplished what he sat out to do. Get into the heads of the competition. He seems to have gotten into yours as well.

chopperman

3651091382490547

I agree that MM should have been fully aware of the rules and would / should keep count of his own laps, so therefore his .... up . Even if he had the wrong lap on his pit board he should have known what lap he was on . If he cant keep track of his laps i'm sure the mighty HRC could fit a lap counter to his bike.


 


As for being in the same room when they all agreed to it. As far as i have read there was no meeting where they all agreed to it. I heard it was a piece of paper delivered to each garage . Hence my quip about Dani or Puig relaying the message to Marquez's side of the garage.

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Are you serious?

the-insider

3650121382450741

No a completely different take, if you go back and read my initial post, and posts from others, I stated Bridgestone had failed to do the necessary R&D on the new surface, and the whole .... pile was at their feet, looking at Toby's article, that is exactly what happened. case closed for me.

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Except the tone of Moody's article was that Dorna did the right thing. Can't see many on here agreeing with that.


 


And don't take it personally, I wasn't pointing the article at you... I don't know (or care) who started this thread.

Pigeon

3650421382471511

a stopped reading after this "TOBY MOODY reckons the sport deserves credit for finding a solution"


 


Some ....... solution jeez Toby's been up Dornas arse too long ffs. ££ $$ €€

   

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I went looking for the 'This has been a paid advertisment of Dorna SpA', but couldn't find it. So I guess they are uncredited Probably in Moody's contract that he gets to keep copyright.

tobalsan

3650941382482068

So what's the current situation ? I didn't follow motogp news lately.


 


Is a penalty being discussed for Marquez dangerous pit lane exit, or has this been forgotten like all the other ones this year ?

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What dangerous pit lane exit? He exited the pits just fine, kept to the speed limit, kept within the lines, then dived down onto the racing line for the corner in front of a 170mph M1.


 


Nothing wrong with his pit lane exit at all, it was after that he lost the plot.

Gaz

3651181382494442

Rog, I don't disagree with the essence of what you are saying btw, but essentially a rider (driver0 gets a set number of laps to act when ordered/requested to do so by officials (in Bike racing I understand it is 3 complete laps). During this time, the rider must undertake the action as deemed approprirate by Race Control otherwise he faces a harsher penalty (usually a DQ as experienced by Biaggi in WSBK at Imaola a year or so ago -- funny enough for a blen line issue at T1)


 


Can I ask, if MM was not DQ'd, had overtaken DP and then crashed, would that have meant that DQ still had to drop the position?


 


Asking as IMO the fact that (in this case) MM did not finish the race has no bearing on the penalties applied to others (if acted upon) whilst he was in the race.


 


On the championship finish position, personally I hope not as for mine the two exceptional riders of season 2013 are Lorenzo and Marquez and to see them not finish 1 and 2 in whatever order is or would be a major travesty

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An interesting point gaz and one which i think highlights the point of penaltys only being given post race rather than on track. But to answer this question, i think if dani pulled off line to let mm through but mm then went on to crash DP would have still obeyed RD and his penalty was served (even though he got the place back). But if he conceded that place under a race scenario rather than yielding it then the penalty is not served. What i find disgustful in this race was the timing of MM's black flag. RD had the whole lap to know mm was DSQ and could of stopped him leaving pit lane. Instead they waited until he had passed DP to issue it. This went to DP and Repsol Honda's advantage because it gave DP a valuable 4 pts. While mm should win the wc those 4 pts will be very important in securing 2nd with only 2 races remaining. Some punishment eh ?

Holy ....... I'm not getting into this

Ok, I will.


 


MM - ...... up on the pitting, black flagged, fine with me.


 


Doohan Corner Incident


 


- MM was technically in the lead but was coming onto a hot track. Could have done better.


-JL was traveling much faster than than MM and ran a touch wide. Could have done better.


 


When the bikes came together I was thinking they were both lucky and both could have done a little more to avoid it happening. Marc will be Marc and Jorge probably would have taken that corner slightly differently if it was Stoner coming on to that track. My .02 cents.

bluegreen

3651821382546052

Holy ....... I'm not getting into this

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bluegreen

3651831382546602

Ok, I will.

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:lol:  I know right?  Its ....... irresistible.  


 


Anyway, bro I don't think Jlo has to be inch perfect, it is NOT a reasonable requirement, as the responsibility was in the rider leaving pit and "merging" to do so without incident.  Race Direction has specifically said, and I quote Marc needs to be mindful of a "margin for error".  When Lorenzo is a foot or so off his normal race line, he admitted that.  This has been used by people to say he is copping all kinds of blame...because he is human.  These people fail to understand what in fact is a 'raceline'.  Marc ...... up as it was his responsibility to merge safely, period.  Marc hastily entering the raceline as he did with such a speed differential was boneheaded, people just can't accept it was his fault.  Whats crazy is that Lorenzo WAS STILL WITHIN the raceline--that is not a mistake; as the raceline is NOT some white line on the track that is 2 inches thick, and that is the space Marc entered at a point that he shouldn't have. Jlo described it as a mistake for his own standards.  Now people want to point to this as his fault in the incident.  This is the point that most arguing in favor of Lorenzo's culpability have FAILED to address understand frankly, and still don't.  Marc had no business within that raceline (space)!


 


Who here thinks Marc did not enter the "raceline"  when the collision occurred?  Anybody?


 


Regarding the idea that he was in the lead, as Kropo has argued?  Incorrect sir.  That lead was gained through illegal means, similar to cutting a chicane.  Marc was not in the lead when the obligation to pit was to be fulfilled.  He 'appeared to be in the lead when he exited pitlane, but that was gain by illegal means.  That was in fact the rule he violated.  Cutting a chicane is also a similar violation, so is jumping a start.  The advantage is deemed to be gained through illegal means.  Marc on many counts did not have the 'right of way' and should have yielded.  Either way you put it:


 


1. Riders on the hot track have right of way.


2. Rider exiting pit lane has the responsibility to yield.


3. Merging rider has reasonable responsibility to do so without incident.


4. Merging into what? The raceline, which is reasonably a parameter of space.


5. No lead is to be gained through illegal means.


 


 


On all counts Marc was wrong and at fault.  


 


My 20000000000 cents.  

Jumkie

3651851382549413

:lol:  I know right?  Its ....... irresistible.  


 


Anyway, bro I don't think Jlo has to be inch perfect, it is NOT a reasonable requirement, as the responsibility was in the rider leaving pit and "merging" to do so without incident.  Race Direction has specifically said, and I quote Marc needs to be mindful of a "margin for error".  When Lorenzo is a foot or so off his normal race line, he admitted that.  This has been used by people to say he is copping all kinds of blame...because he is human.  These people fail to understand what in fact is a 'raceline'.  Marc ...... up as it was his responsibility to merge safely, period.  Marc hastily entering the raceline as he did with such a speed differential was boneheaded, people just can't accept it was his fault.  Whats crazy is that Lorenzo WAS STILL WITHIN the raceline--that is not a mistake; as the raceline is NOT some white line on the track that is 2 inches thick, and that is the space Marc entered at a point that he shouldn't have. Jlo described it as a mistake for his own standards.  Now people want to point to this as his fault in the incident.  This is the point that most arguing in favor of Lorenzo's culpability have FAILED to address understand frankly, and still don't.  Marc had no business within that raceline (space)!


 


Who here thinks Marc did not enter the "raceline"  when the collision occurred?  Anybody?


 


Regarding the idea that he was in the lead, as Kropo has argued?  Incorrect sir.  That lead was gained through illegal means, similar to cutting a chicane.  Marc was not in the lead when the obligation to pit was to be fulfilled.  He 'appeared to be in the lead when he exited pitlane, but that was gain by illegal means.  That was in fact the rule he violated.  Cutting a chicane is also a similar violation, so is jumping a start.  The advantage is deemed to be gained through illegal means.  Marc on many counts did not have the 'right of way' and should have yielded.  Either way you put it:


 


1. Riders on the hot track have right of way.


2. Rider exiting pit lane has the responsibility to yield.


3. Merging rider has reasonable responsibility to do so without incident.


4. Merging into what? The raceline, which is reasonably a parameter of space.


5. No lead is to be gained through illegal means.


 


 


On all counts Marc was wrong and at fault.  


 


My 20000000000 cents.  

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I agree with everything you say but am unsure exactly what you mean by #5. Do you mean illegal means as in he was due to be DSQ ?  I look at it slightly differently in that ,


1. he was not yet DSQ


2. he was not in the lead as he was only in front of lorenzo while in the 60kph pit lane area. By the time he entered the live track lorenzo was in the lead as he was committed to his line around Doohans. Marquez was not on the race line until he collided with lorenzo.

chopperman

3651941382551917

I agree with everything you say but am unsure exactly what you mean by #5. Do you mean illegal means as in he was due to be DSQ ?  I look at it slightly differently in that ,


1. he was not yet DSQ


2. he was not in the lead as he was only in front of lorenzo while in the 60kph pit lane area. By the time he entered the live track lorenzo was in the lead as he was committed to his line around Doohans. Marquez was not on the race line until he collided with lorenzo.

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What I mean is, he gained the "lead" illegally by virtue of flagrantly disregarding a rule.  Once you gain an advantage by violating a rule (regardless if the marshals have signaled you are not) that advantage is considered null and void.  See the part I highlighted above where you say "he [Marc] was only in front of Lorenzo while", well this is what people are saying constitutes "a lead".    Not sure if you had read, but Kropo made the case (which others have latched onto) that Marc had the lead and so Lorenzo was supposed to yield to Marc.  Crazy, I know.  (I'm laughing even thinking about this audacious attempt to spin).  Anyway, they are saying that when Marc left the pit lane he was "ahead" of Lorenzo (in space) and therefore was in "the lead".  Even though that "lead" wasn't anywhere near the raceline (see Marc at the moment he clears the 'white line' from the pit exit).  Of course Lorenzo was coming off 150mph while Marc was still accelerating to get near race pace).  


 


Regardless if he had been signaled to DQ, he had already violated the rule.  That is, he gained the "lead" by illegal means.  There was a reasonable expectation he should have known, but that is actually irrelevant, as knowing you have committed a crime/infraction is not a defense.  ('Officer, I didn't know I had did anything wrong.  Well, kid, here is the paper that told you the rules, you should have known...because its your job to know.'  Sidenote, if you been reading this thread, you will see some people using this as an excuse, that he didn't know, as if this is reasonable and even relevant).

 See the part I highlighted above where you say "he [Marc] was only in

front of Lorenzo while", well this is what people are saying constitutes

"a lead".    Not sure if you had read, but Kropo made the case (which

others have latched onto) that Marc had the lead and so Lorenzo was

supposed to yield to Marc.  Crazy, I know.

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That's actually quite ridiculous. The pit lane can not be seriously considered as the Race track so there for can not be considered positional. If it were it would not have a 60 kph speed limit. You are not considered to be "on track" until you have passed the speed limit zone and any white lines separating the pit lane from the track.

chopperman

3651991382553751

That's actually quite ridiculous. The pit lane can not be seriously considered as the Race track so there for can not be considered positional. If it were it would not have a 60 kph speed limit. You are not considered to be "on track" until you have passed the speed limit zone and any white lines separating the pit lane from the track.

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They are saying once he cleared the white line, he was 'ahead' of Lorenzo on the track, equating this with the "lead".  Btw, even more ridiculous is Kropo saying the speed differential is <u>"irrelevant"</u>.  hahaha, I swear, it gets better!  That means Kropo is saying that if Marc had been in the "lead" (which he was not anywhere near the race line at the moment he cleared the "demarcation line") but had Marc parked his bike 'ahead' of Lorenzo at say 5mph (its "irrelevant" according to Krops), its was still Lorenzo's responsibility to slow down enough to yield to Marc.  hahahaha.  .... me!


 


Enjoy:


 

...as once Marquez passes the white line demarcating the pit lane exit, he is on a hot track and racing. At that point, he is in the lead, and it becomes the responsibility of the rider behind - in this case Lorenzo - to only attempt to pass safely. The fact that Marquez is not traveling at the same speed which Lorenzo is moving at becomes irrelevant;...  Kropo

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Jumkie

3652061382556297

They are saying once he cleared the white line, he was 'ahead' of Lorenzo on the track, equating this with the "lead".  Btw, even more ridiculous is Kropo saying the speed differential is <u>"irrelevant"</u>.  hahaha, I swear, it gets better!  That means Kropo is saying that if Marc had been in the "lead" (which he was not anywhere near the race line at the moment he cleared the "demarcation line") but had Marc parked his bike 'ahead' of Lorenzo at say 5mph (its "irrelevant" according to Krops), its was still Lorenzo's responsibility to slow down enough to yield to Marc.  hahahaha.  .... me!


 


Enjoy:

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That's some very creative spin. Reminds me of the good old days back in 06 hahaha

I'm not sure if anyone has already pointed this out, but a friend said to me at work this week regarding the Marquez pitstop blunder...


 


If the Honda team understood the rules in a way that made Marquez's pit stop legal in their eyes, they must also have been convinced that Pedrosa's chosen pit stop lap was illegal and would result in a black flag for Dani.


 


Are we supposed to believe that the Marquez side of the garage made their strategy without anyone bothering to check that Dani wasn't pitting on the same lap?

Tom

3652131382557217

I'm not sure if anyone has already pointed this out, but a friend said to me at work this week regarding the Marquez pitstop blunder...


 


If the Honda team understood the rules in a way that made Marquez's pit stop legal in their eyes, they must also have been convinced that Pedrosa's chosen pit stop lap was illegal and would result in a black flag for Dani.


 


Are we supposed to believe that the Marquez side of the garage made their strategy without anyone bothering to check that Dani wasn't pitting on the same lap?

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Thats right, that would have made dani miss the window by being early. This is why i wonder which side of the garage received the piece of paper with the rules and how those were relayed to the other side of the garage. I said in jest it was a Puig / dani stitch up on Marquez but to be honest i'm really starting to wonder. Or they did try to "game" the rules which would have been very silly.

Tom

3652131382557217

I'm not sure if anyone has already pointed this out, but a friend said to me at work this week regarding the Marquez pitstop blunder...


 


If the Honda team understood the rules in a way that made Marquez's pit stop legal in their eyes, they must also have been convinced that Pedrosa's chosen pit stop lap was illegal and would result in a black flag for Dani.


 


Are we supposed to believe that the Marquez side of the garage made their strategy without anyone bothering to check that Dani wasn't pitting on the same lap?

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Please elaborate.

Jumkie

3652321382560835

Please elaborate.

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Because there was a 2 lap window. But there was 3 laps between Dani and marc's pit stops.

chopperman

3652341382561178

Because there was a 2 lap window. But there was 3 laps between Dani and marc's pit stops.

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Exactly, but I was thinking about this earlier while I was doing the washing up and now I'm thinking my own statement might not be true.  If they understood that Marquez could complete lets say 10.9 laps and then do the last 8.1, does Dani's system not work out as doing 8.9 laps followed by 10.1? (assuming that the Honda garage was 0.1 laps away from the start/finish line)

Tom

3652401382563008

Exactly, but I was thinking about this earlier while I was doing the washing up and now I'm thinking my own statement might not be true.  If they understood that Marquez could complete lets say 10.9 laps and then do the last 8.1, does Dani's system not work out as doing 8.9 laps followed by 10.1? (assuming that the Honda garage was 0.1 laps away from the start/finish line)

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Yes, quite possibly. I think i need to watch the race again and take notes lol. It still strikes me very unusual that HRC would of had a 2 lap difference between the 2 riders, especially given the safety issues with the rear tyres. I would have expected a 1 lap difference.