Tissot Australian Grand Prix 2013

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Jumkie
3650371382468420

1near adverb \ˈnir\
: close to someone or something in distance
 
: not far away in time
 
: almost or nearly
 
Are you boys aware that before the pit sequence that all three riders (Pedro, Marc, and Jorge) were 'near' eachother, so close in fact that they were at one point separated by tenths of a second ? (So were VR, Cal, & Alvaro btw, but lets just stick to one point at a time).  That means when they exited pit, there was a reasonable expectation they would also re-join "near" eachother.  The process of leaving the pit and merging onto the track, as has been the case since pitlanes were invented, it requires of the rider to MERGE safely.  That means the rider merging had to take some special action not to cause an incident when re-joining. I almost can't believe I'm having to explain this. I almost can't believe (but PS has taught me otherwise) how many people here are of the opinion that exiting pit lane and the purposefully action of merging safely was somehow 'impossible' at PI.  ALL pit exits require the rider to take action!  There is no pit lane in all of GP that magically puts the riders safely on a hot track without the action of merging properly! 
 
Anyway, lets test your description of the space between them, comparing and contrasting Lorenzo's merging and Marc's. So Pedrosa, according to you guys, wasn't even in the same area code to Jlo (see what you said above), while you insist Lorenzo was on Marc's ... when he left pit lane.  
 
Side-by-side pics.  How in the world was Lorenzo able to 'merge' on to the track with Pedro approaching at "nearly" 150mph and within tenths? Some might say he did the 'impossible'. The second side-by-side is them after each "merged".  <span style="color:#ff0000;Marc not only collided with Lorenzo but crossed up Pedro too by overshooting (not uncommon for him).
 
attachicon.gif
Safe vs Reckless1.png
attachicon.gif
Save vs Reckless2.png
 
Pigsh, <span style="color:#ff8c00;how do you 'know' Jlo did not look over enough to merge?  You posted a pic of Marc looking back well in the middle of pit lane, which was nice of him, but looking to merge would have been better suited at the point of leaving the lane were it fed onto the track. 
 
Bat, you are still here.  So you are listening...
Click to expand...


hasnt Lorenzo said he ran wide causing the contact ? so he collected MM Causing DP To be involved


Pic / dont think there's one the TV Footage changed shot about that point but looking at what footage there is up to that point JL Didnt look back imo


did he look back while getting up to speed ? after the 60kmh signs who knows ?
 
Pigeon
3650401382471166

hasnt Lorenzo said he ran wide causing the contact ? so he collected MM Causing DP To be involved


Pic / dont think there's one the TV Footage changed shot about that point but looking at what footage there is up to that point JL Didnt look back imo


did he look back while getting up to speed ? after the 60kmh signs who knows ?
Click to expand...


Yes he has.
 
Geonerd
3650141382452948

As I've tried to explain, 'looking' while trundling along the pit lane is pretty much pointless, since both riders are still many seconds from entering the merge zone and it is impossible to predict their future position on track with sufficient accuracy.


 


Unfortunately, the video source you are trying to twist to your will ends before JL reaches the merge zone.


 


JL had no reason to assume that Pedro wouldn't be right there with him when he regained the track.  Show me a video where JL drives onto the racing line w/o a head check and I'll shut up about it.  :)
Click to expand...


see reply to Jumkie ^ afaik there's no footage only JL Well in front of DP After turn 1 Who had caught JL By MG Corner
 
Jumkie
3650371382468420

1near adverb \ˈnir\
: close to someone or something in distance
 
: not far away in time
 
: almost or nearly
 
Are you boys aware that before the pit sequence that all three riders (Pedro, Marc, and Jorge) were 'near' eachother, so close in fact that they were at one point separated by tenths of a second ? (So were VR, Cal, & Alvaro btw, but lets just stick to one point at a time).  That means when they exited pit, there was a reasonable expectation they would also re-join "near" eachother.  The process of leaving the pit and merging onto the track, as has been the case since pitlanes were invented, it requires of the rider to MERGE safely.  That means the rider merging had to take some special action not to cause an incident when re-joining. I almost can't believe I'm having to explain this. I almost can't believe (but PS has taught me otherwise) how many people here are of the opinion that exiting pit lane and the purposefully action of merging safely was somehow 'impossible' at PI.  ALL pit exits require the rider to take action!  There is no pit lane in all of GP that magically puts the riders safely on a hot track without the action of merging properly! 
 
Anyway, lets test your description of the space between them, comparing and contrasting Lorenzo's merging and Marc's. So Pedrosa, according to you guys, wasn't even in the same area code to Jlo (see what you said above), while you insist Lorenzo was on Marc's ... when he left pit lane.  
 
Side-by-side pics.  How in the world was Lorenzo able to 'merge' on to the track with Pedro approaching at "nearly" 150mph and within tenths? Some might say he did the 'impossible'. The second side-by-side is them after each "merged".  Marc not only collided with Lorenzo but crossed up Pedro too by overshooting (not uncommon for him).
 
attachicon.gif
Safe vs Reckless1.png
attachicon.gif
Save vs Reckless2.png
 
Pigsh, how do you 'know' Jlo did not look over enough to merge?  You posted a pic of Marc looking back well in the middle of pit lane, which was nice of him, but looking to merge would have been better suited at the point of leaving the lane were it fed onto the track. 
 
Bat, you are still here.  So you are listening...
Click to expand...


 C'mon Jum - don't be all Mr. Pedantic-Semantics here. In racing where the difference between 1st place and 4th can be less than half a second and safe passes are regularly made with only inches to spare - distance is clearly relative.
 
the-insider
3650251382463841

Because he got black flagged for doing an extra lap, acting under instruction from his employers. He lost 25 points, he did not get punished for colliding with Jorge, so I see no reason for any penalty points.
Click to expand...


 


Well sir, you did not give your rationale why its not necessary to add an addition point to the tallied  that record this latest transgression, the cumulative (ongoing) penalty point system.  All you said is the punishment for the infraction was enough.  However, these are separate issues!  1. the penalty for the infraction resulted in the DQ.  2.  The penalty point on his license which is supposed to keep track of these transgression still need to record yet another penalized infraction.  (Do you understand why there is a need to keep a ledge?  Well, that is exactly why the 'penalty point' system was devised, each point docked is not a penalty in itself but rather the accumulation of the docked points does lead to a consequence. )  


 


Here, let me help you out.  (You may know your .... about the new CBR1V;  ;) but friend,  the allow me to refresh your memory about the aspects of a cumulative penalty point system imposed as new regulations aimed at curtailing dangerous behavior, (Baturro, Sloth, take notes):


 


 

Sporting and Disciplinary Regulations 
Effective immediately: 
 
It has been recognised that there is the need to address the problem of riders who are constantly being warned or penalised for endangering other riders or committing other serious offences like assaulting marshals or other officials. 
 
To address this issue a new system of Penalty Points was approved. 
 
Race Direction can sanction a rider with a number of Penalty Points between one and ten. This can be instead of or in addition to any other sanction.
 
Points will "total up" during the season and when certain thresholds are reached the following sanctions will be applied automatically: 
 
Four Points - Starts next race from rear of grid. 
Seven Points - Starts next race from pit lane. 
Ten Points - Disqualification from the next event.
 
Click to expand...


 

And why was this necessary?  Oh yeah, because Marc Marquez has repeatedly been warned and penalized, but no cumulative affect had yet led to adequate curtailing of his behavior.  So prominent have been Marc's transgressions, that even fanboy Kropo admitted the system may have been devised with the lad in mind.  Irronically, here we are, still not much change.  
 


A statement from the Grand Prix Commission said: "It has been recognised that there is the need to address the problem of riders who are constantly being warned or penalised for endangering other riders or committing other serious offences like assaulting marshals or other officials.
"To address this issue a new system of penalty points was approved. Race Direction can sanction a rider with a number of penalty points between one and 10. This can be instead of or in addition to any other sanction." Autosport
 
Click to expand...


 

 
Perhaps repeating it wasn't enough buddy, so lets see what Race Direction explicitly stated in an example when it took action:
 


“ We are sending a message to Marc, very clearly, that we understand that he is an extremely talented rider but he is also intelligent enough to understand that there has to be some margin for error – … For us, that is a signal (even though the contact itself was quite minor) to make a formal warning by way of a penalty point to Marc to say he has to take more care.” RD
Click to expand...


 

 
That team that you say was to blame, rather than Marc (the guy operating the controls) well this rationalization as been attempted before too.  Most people blamed his team when he torpedoed Wilariot.  The deflection of the blame game.  Anyway buddy, his team are aware, that they review this with the lad is a different story.
 

“Marc has been penalised with one point on his license,” acknowledges Livio Suppo, Team Principal of Repsol Honda Team. “Basically, they said that in this particular case it was more or less okay, but they are taking Marc’s whole season into consideration and he has been close to touching the rider in front of him on more than one occasion. The message was basically, ‘This time it was okay but realise that you have been doing this quite often’.
Click to expand...


 

 

 
 
Pigeon
3650421382471511

a stopped reading after this "TOBY MOODY reckons the sport deserves credit for finding a solution"


 


Some ....... solution jeez Toby's been up Dornas arse too long ffs. ££ $$ €€

   
Click to expand...


Both Toby and Julian have imo. The only commentator i have heard makes digs at the series is Charlie Cox. "saying it as it is" in true aussie fashion.
 
the-insider
3650411382471339

Yes he has.
Click to expand...
Jorge Lorenzo

"I braked too late and Marc was coming out of the pit lane so we touched

and we were lucky to avoid crashing. We were both at fault. He did not

look who was coming, but it was 50/50. The one who is already on track

should have the priority. I don’t know exactly what happened to Marc

today, if it was a mistake from him or his team, or whether he did not

see the pit board."[/quote]


 

Source: http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2013/Lorenzo+Phillip+Island+2013+race+review

 

You've probably all read that anyway, but I felt it should be put here also. If anyone has an excuse to blame Marc, it's J-Lo, and he's prepared to say they both ...... up.

 

I prefer to say Dorna/Bridgestone ...... up and they're damn lucky to not have 2 deaths on their hands.

 

I'd like to see MM have to start at the back as much as anyone, but I freely admit this is because a: I want to see the championship go down to the wire and b: I'm a Lorenzo fan, of course I'm biased.
 
14X
3650391382470757

Jum I have to say you are completely and utterly wrong by suggesting we shouldn't be comparing this to F1 as the two sports are far too different.


 


You suggest this even after seeing with your own eyes, a promising race event being ruined because nobody took the time to test that the tyres were fit for purpose.


 


If that isn't exactly like F1 this year, I don't know what is.
Click to expand...


 


WTF, that is what I'm saying.  You need to be quoting Baturro who's longest post on this thread was the very premise you are refuting.


 
Keshav
3650441382472142

 C'mon Jum - don't be all Mr. Pedantic-Semantics here. In racing where the difference between 1st place and 4th can be less than half a second and safe passes are regularly made with only inches to spare - distance is clearly relative.
Click to expand...


 


I accept you concede the point. Ha!  To be clear, you tried to characterize Lorenzo's vs Marquez's details of the task to re-join as exceedingly and widely divergent, you were wrong (and so have been those who tried to make similar depiction).
 
Jumkie
3650481382472882

WTF, that is what I'm saying.  You need to be quoting Baturro who's longest post on this thread was the very premise you are refuting.
Click to expand...


#536
 
14X
3650471382472856

Jorge Lorenzo said
 
"I braked too late and Marc was coming out of the pit lane so we touched
and we were lucky to avoid crashing. We were both at fault. He did not
look who was coming, but it was 50/50. The one who is already on track
should have the priority. I don’t know exactly what happened to Marc
today, if it was a mistake from him or his team, or whether he did not


see the pit board." 




Source: http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2013/Lorenzo+Phillip+Island+2013+race+review

 

You've probably all read that anyway, but I felt it should be put here also. If anyone has an excuse to blame Marc, it's J-Lo, and he's prepared to say they both ...... up.

 

I prefer to say Dorna/Bridgestone ...... up and they're damn lucky to not have 2 deaths on their hands.

 
Click to expand...


 


Thanx. Its been repeated on this thread, we are aware of what Lorenzo said.  He was being generous, I think perhaps because he had just won a race and points gain that was a bit unexpected.  Regardless, if were too use the rider's opinions involved to incidents to issue or not issue sanctions, then VR would have long since been hung, Marc along side with him, not to mention Elias, Bautista, etc.  Lorenzo is coping some of the blame, while at the same time clarifying that he had the right of way and Marc was in the space that was not reasonable to avoid collision.  Look above to Race Direction's statement, they explicitly said Marc needs to be mindful of "a margin for error".


 


Not only was this situation cause by Marc not being mindful during exit of pit lane, but the whole thing was a result of him not pitting when the obligation required of him.  Compounded transgressions. We continue to take each incident as a stand alone, YET, again if you read the above, the penalty point system was introduced to curtail repeated dangerous behavior.  Are you going to make the case this is a stand alone event?  In that case, lets immediately do away with the new system designed to keep a ledger of such reckless tactics.  (Its not like its working anyway).


 


 


#536
Click to expand...



 


Ah, I see, you are saying we should be comparing MotoGP to F1.  Well, I have compared MotoGP to WWF, so I guess we are even.  I have not the energy respond further, as I pretty much made my case in the post you are referring to.
 
the-insider
3650411382471339

Yes he has.
Click to expand...


And I agree nothing to see here move on.


However seen as I am the one that brought the point up he should get at least a point on his license for getting the black flag.


Just to show where rules bad moves or whatever the Fcuk happened that was dangerous!


If I get stopped for speeding I get 3 points, No insurance 8 points 12 point I'm out for 6 mnths.


All I'd like to see is parity with the punishment system!


I'm not seeing this more and more these days.
 
lil red rocket pilot
3650551382475576

And I agree nothing to see here move on.


However seen as I am the one that brought the point up he should get at least a point on his license for getting the black flag.


Just to show where rules bad moves or whatever the Fcuk happened that was dangerous!


If I get stopped for speeding I get 3 points, No insurance 8 points 12 point I'm out for 6 mnths.


All I'd like to see is parity with the punishment system!


I'm not seeing this more and more these days.
Click to expand...


I do see what you and Jumkie are saying, but I tend to think the black flag was more of a punishment for Honda, as it was the fault of his team.
 
Jumkie
3650511382474568

Not only was this situation cause by Marc not being mindful during exit of pit lane, but the whole thing was a result of him not pitting when the obligation required of him.  Compounded transgressions. We continue to take each incident as a stand alone, YET, again if you read the above, the penalty point system was introduced to curtail repeated dangerous behavior.  Are you going to make the case this is a stand alone event?  In that case, lets immediately do away with the new system designed to keep a ledger of such reckless tactics.  (Its not like its working anyway).
Click to expand...


I'm saying nothing about a stand alone event. In my opinion, the pit exit incident (insofar as deserving punishment) is a non-event.


 


However, if you want me to say that we've only had one event of dangerous riding from Marc this year, then you're talking to the wrong guy. I've been watching the races with my eyes open (and even got to witness the joy of Marshall bowling live) and I agree with you on the other bits I've bolded. There was dangerous riding in this race that I attribute to MM, but it wasn't at the pit exit, it was the lap beforehand. We've all seen the pictures of his tyre I'm sure. That thing was not safe to ride on. The bike swap, while taking some enjoyment out of the race, was 100% necessary in the interests of safety, and by staying out, whether intentional or not, #93 risked the safety of himself and others riding on tyres in that condition.


 


The penalty points system seems to be a complete waste of time. Chiefly because there's far too much wiggle room in their distribution, and nobody seems to have the slightest ....... clue how to hand them out, especially those who's responsibility it is to hand them out.


 


As far as I understand it, as MM received a punishment for his offence (the black flag) it seems like they are free to either issue a penalty point or not based purely on whether they feel like it. As rule systems go, that's begging to be abused. So yes, they should do away with it if they aren't going to at least give it a concise set of rules everyone can read and understand.
 
lil red rocket pilot
3650551382475576

And I agree nothing to see here move on.


However seen as I am the one that brought the point up he should get at least a point on his license for getting the black flag.


Just to show where rules bad moves or whatever the Fcuk happened that was dangerous!


If I get stopped for speeding I get 3 points, No insurance 8 points 12 point I'm out for 6 mnths.


All I'd like to see is parity with the punishment system!


I'm not seeing this more and more these days.
Click to expand...


1pt on his license ? / Black Flag he got yes. BUT Surely with Honda's statement / and pic evidence he did nothing wrong his pit crew ...... up He followed his pit board
 
1 point for coming into the pits late and getting disqualified is wrong imo. That being punished for the same crime twice.


1 point for hitting lorenzo exiting the pits maybe but i do think he has a degree of mitigating circumstance.


I do think Perdosa should still face a punishment.  He committed 3 crimes yet was not punished.


1. crossed the line exiting the pits.


2. did not drop a place


3 ignored the marshals telling him to drop the place.


 


Just because mm got disqualified should not mean pedro goes unpunished imo.
 
chopperman
3650701382477081

1 point for coming into the pits late and getting disqualified is wrong imo. That being punished for the same crime twice.


1 point for hitting lorenzo exiting the pits maybe but i do think he has a degree of mitigating circumstance.


I do think Perdosa should still face a punishment.  He committed 3 crimes yet was not punished.


1. crossed the line exiting the pits.


2. did not drop a place


3 ignored the marshals telling him to drop the place.


 


Just because mm got disqualified should not mean pedro goes unpunished imo.
Click to expand...


Thumbs up ^^ MM Taken the limelight. CRIME PUNISHMENT / Bollocks DP Did more rule braking than MM And got away with it. MM Crucified
 
Jumkie
3650481382472882

WTF, that is what I'm saying.  You need to be quoting Baturro who's longest post on this thread was the very premise you are refuting.


 


 


I accept you concede the point. Ha!  To be clear, you tried to characterize Lorenzo's vs Marquez's details of the task to re-join as exceedingly and widely divergent, you were wrong (and so have been those who tried to make similar depiction).
Click to expand...


Concession? I don't think so. These guys are so precise that it's fair to believe that MM had calculated the line that Lorenzo (who is known for repeatedly taking the same line like clockwork) would take based on how Lorenzo rode in practice and during the first 10 laps of the race, and reasonably thought he could (as he's done so many times) if not get in alongside Lorenzo via the outside of the turn - then perhaps even pass him - but as he's not prescient he could not predict that Lorenzo would miss his braking marker and run wide; that's what's known as a racing incident pure and simple. His having gone out not knowing for sure whether he was DQ'd is irrelevant. All this melodramatic and prejudicial conjecture (despite being entertaining) isn't swaying anyone.
 
the-insider
3650571382475815

I do see what you and Jumkie are saying, but I tend to think the black flag was more of a punishment for Honda, as it was the fault of his team.
Click to expand...


....... astute!
 
the-insider
3650571382475815

I do see what you and Jumkie are saying, but I tend to think the black flag was more of a punishment for Honda, as it was the fault of his team.
Click to expand...


Sorry but like the traction control sensor that passed scrutineering?


Honda was punished there for something RC allowed on track!


So how many times have Honda to be punished before the real cause of the incidents are realised.


Sorry again I know the answer.


After MM wins the championship! ;)


I can tell the future ask the fantasy league ;)
 

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