Tissot Australian Grand Prix 2013

chopperman

3650701382477081

1 point for coming into the pits late and getting disqualified is wrong imo. That being punished for the same crime twice.

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Compa, Not at all.  The system was devised to keep a tally on transgressions, including those that have been sanctioned.  (See my post on it above).  The 'penalty point' system are not "penalties"!  They can be.  In other words the 'penalty point system' are actually serving the purpose of tallying 'warning' (an a point doesn't necessarily carry an immediate penalty to be served, as happened for Aragon) AND it serves to keep a ledger on incidents that indicate poor  behavior and habits.  They are a running total of deemed infraction and punished infractions!  When the points accumulate, then further consequences are issued.  


 


Do you have a driver's license?  What happens when you get an infraction?  Is there a penalty in the form of a fine for that immediate infraction?  Now, in addition to that as separate issue to that fine/penalty; Is there a system that records these infractions?  We call it points on your license here.  And each infraction carries with it a corresponding tally on the privilege to have said license.  Can you repeat the same infractions without further sanctions to your driving privileges?  


 


Such is the nature of the  GP 'penalty points system'.  I didn't make it up. And frankly, it was devised to curtail dangerous fuckers from getting away with it.  You are suggesting more of the same?  If Marc is not issued a 'penalty point' then the system is worthless as it would be literally circumvented.  It would only be a big deal given that Marc has already accumulated 3 point, which means the system is working if he were to receive another point.  Now, next time you get an infraction and a penalty point is issued on your license, send a letter to the DMV and tell them you don't deserve it while everybody else has to live with it.  Explain to them why the logic behind it, being to keep a record on everybody's driving habits to weed out the dangerous fuckers in your community, doesn't make sense and should not be applied.  Then send me a copy of it.  

Keshav

3650741382477715

Concession? I don't think so.  

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Well dude, what can i do? You are the one who described the space and task to merge between Marc and Lorenzo as wildly divergent.  I showed you pictures that unequivocally prove you are wrong.  I'm reminded of the song "it wasn't me".  You can deny it all you want man. 

Jumkie

3650851382479643

Compa, Not at all.  The system was devised to keep a tally on transgressions, including those that have been sanctioned.  (See my post on it above).  The 'penalty point' system are not "penalties"!  They can be.  In other words the 'penalty point system' are actually serving the purpose of tallying 'warning' (an a point doesn't necessarily carry an immediate penalty to be served, as happened for Aragon) AND it serves to keep a ledger on incidents that indicate poor  behavior and habits.  They are a running total of deemed infraction and punished infractions!  When the points accumulate, then further consequences are issued.  


 


Do you have a driver's license?  What happens when you get an infraction?  Is there a penalty in the form of a fine for that immediate infraction?  Now, in addition to that as separate issue to that fine/penalty; Is there a system that records these infractions?  We call it points on your license here.  And each infraction carries with it a corresponding tally on the privilege to have said license.  Can you repeat the same infractions without further sanctions to your driving privileges?  


 


Such is the nature of the  GP 'penalty points system'.  I didn't make it up. And frankly, it was devised to curtail dangerous fuckers from getting away with it.  You are suggesting more of the same?  If Marc is not issued a 'penalty point' then the system is worthless as it would be literally circumvented.  It would only be a big deal given that Marc has already accumulated 3 point, which means the system is working if he were to receive another point.  Now, next time you get an infraction and a penalty point is issued on your license, send a letter to the DMV and tell them you don't deserve it while everybody else has to live with it.  Explain to them why the logic behind it, being to keep a record on everybody's driving habits to weed out the dangerous fuckers in your community, doesn't make sense and should not be applied.  Then send me a copy of it.  

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I think you're missing the point.  By all accounts the teams were warned that missing the pit stop window would result in qualification. NOT disqualification and points. Marquez got disqualified which all things considered is war worse than 1 or 2 more points. To get both a disqualification and points would have been contrary to the rules laid out before the race.


 


A point or 2 for the dangerous exit of pit lane is another thing. As i said their are mitigating circumstances to this and personally i find myself sat on the fence. 

chopperman

3650881382480236

I think you're missing the point.  By all accounts the teams were warned that missing the pit stop window would result in qualification. NOT disqualification and points. Marquez got disqualified which all things considered is war worse than 1 or 2 more points. To get both a disqualification and points would have been contrary to the rules laid out before the race.


 


A point or 2 for the dangerous exit of pit lane is another thing. As i said their are mitigating circumstances to this and personally i find myself sat on the fence. 

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Absolutely not compa.  The disqualification was issued for the failure to comply.  The penalty point system is devised to keep a tally on such incidents/transgressions  ("sanctioned or not")  


 


Agree that the pit lane exit incident is harder to sanction, not that it doesn't merit it, but rather as you say mitigating circumstances would be used for particular discretion.


 


http://powerslide.net/forum/index.php?/topic/16049-tissot-australian-grand-prix-2013/?p=365045

Jumkie

3650891382480418

Absolutely not.  The disqualification was issued for the failure to comply.  The penalty point system is devised to keep a tally on such incidents ("sanctioned or not")


 


http://powerslide.net/forum/index.php?/topic/16049-tissot-australian-grand-prix-2013/?p=365045

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It's my understanding the penalty point system is so the more minor infractions could be tallied up and a punishment once a pre determined number was reached. But for the more serious infractions a punishment would be handed out forthwith. MM had the latter for the late pit stop. This is why i say a point added after dsq is being punished for the same offence twice.


If i were to get a driving ban for speeding, i wouldn't expect points to be added to my licence once i had served the ban. I maybe ordered to take a re-test though. This has only happened once to my limited knowledge in gp-motogp. in 1988 Taru Rinne crashed at Paul Rickard. While recovering she received a letter from Bernie Ecclestone (poison Dwarf) stating she was banned from racing motorcycles because "she is not qualified to compete next season".  This is what happens when we go on the witch hunt, She was more than "qualified" with good results .Now if we start making up the punishments as we please rather than stick to the agreed we could be in danger of repeating that sorry episode.  A disqualification was agreed for the pit stop window infraction. Points were not .Points were designed for dangerous moves but which did not deserve black flagging / ride through / drop a place ect. So points designed to punish for offences not deemed serious enough to warrant immediate punishment. I don't believe points were to also follow immediate punishment.

Jumkie

3650871382480101

 

Well dude, what can i do? You are the one who described the space and task to merge between Marc and Lorenzo as wildly divergent.  I showed you pictures that unequivocally prove you are wrong.  I'm reminded of the song "it wasn't me".  You can deny it all you want man. 

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I don't recall anything about "wildly divergent". I said that Lorenzo is known for consistancy and that MM's


entry into that turn was in all liklihood predicated on the belief that Lorenzo would not greatly diverge from that pattern. So - quite the opposite really.


 


A photo can illustrate the event - but is not proof of intent. Your main premise for this prosecution is that the occurance was pre-meditated and of that you have no evidence.

So what's the current situation ? I didn't follow motogp news lately.


 


Is a penalty being discussed for Marquez dangerous pit lane exit, or has this been forgotten like all the other ones this year ?

tobalsan

3650941382482068

So what's the current situation ? I didn't follow motogp news lately.


 


Is a penalty being discussed for Marquez dangerous pit lane exit, or has this been forgotten like all the other ones this year ?

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Nah, just here hahaha.

tobalsan

3650941382482068

So what's the current situation ? I didn't follow motogp news lately.


 


Is a penalty being discussed for Marquez dangerous pit lane exit, or has this been forgotten like all the other ones this year ?

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MM Got DQ / Because Honda ...... up on the laps when he needed to come in to change the tyre's (playing the game ?) no Dangerous pit exit / Forgotten

Pigeon

3650971382482721



MM Got DQ / Because Honda ...... up

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He was in the room when they all agreed to it. Can we place some blame on him? Or are we now always going to blame Honda for his own .... ups?

An apology to jumkie.  He was correct in stating penalty points can be given as well as other punishments given. I thought they were only used as an instead of.


 

To address this issue a new system of penalty points was approved. Race

Direction can sanction a rider with a number of penalty points between

one and 10. This can be instead of or in addition to any other sanction

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^The integrity of this man knows no bounds. Compa we are all trying to figure out together what the hell Dorna is doing with their rolling rule book.



I would also like to point out something very insightful that chopper said to me. As the season bears on the penalty points system actually becomes less effective. What happens if you have an infraction in the last two rounds not enough points are accumulated and the transgression goes unpunished.

Jumkie

3650871382480101

 

Well dude, what can i do? You are the one who described the space and task to merge between Marc and Lorenzo as wildly divergent.  I showed you pictures that unequivocally prove you are wrong.  I'm reminded of the song "it wasn't me".  You can deny it all you want man. 

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I don't quite get your point on Lorenzo re-entering in front of Pedrosa. I agree the race video doesn't show his exact point of entry, and as he is imo both a great and smart rider my default position is that he would have joined safely if proximity had been close, unlike the only other 2 riders who rejoined in similar circumstances, DP and MM, both of whom had problems, and the 2nd of whom should not have been rejoining in the first place as perforce everyone acknowledges having already incurred disqualification by not pitting a lap earlier.


 


However Jorge rejoined some distance ahead of DP,  out of his control except by him doing a quicker changeover than Dani as far as I can see, and meaning that either he had a sufficient lead, or that Dani slowed down,  for safety reasons or because he knew he had already incurred a penalty.


 


Both people who usually agree with you, and MM partisans, would likely concede that the pit lane exit thing is a further example of him pushing close to the edge, differing in their opinions as to whether this is a good thing or not. My contention is that race organisation set up a situation where there was a potential, and perhaps to some extent even an expectation, of such an incident  occurring,  and Jorge's post race comment was imo a tacit admission that he was racing to stay ahead of MM as well, hence him going off line. The entire potential for a speed differential disaster could have been avoided by making them all stop on the same lap, which would seem like the most sensible thing to have done, or not having the pit lane exit  next to a blind corner on one of the fastest parts of the track, as most posters familiar with the track say should have been the case. At the very least the way things were organised had a preordained consequence of riders re-entering a high speed part of the track on cold tyres, with the potential of this being in traffic since bike changes were allowed if not on 3 different laps definitely on two. 


 


MM has a record of carelessness, extending to recklessness on some occasions imo, but I don't think this particular incident is all down to him.

Jumkie

3651041382488665

He was in the room when they all agreed to it. Can we place some blame on him? Or are we now always going to blame Honda for his own .... ups?

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Do you dream with MM?  See him DQD for the next race, sitting on the pit wall watching his buddies ride by him and MM with a pouty sad face with handcuffs on?  


 


Relax Jum, this sport is watched for enjoyment.  

Jumkie

3651041382488665

He was in the room when they all agreed to it. Can we place some blame on him? Or are we now always going to blame Honda for his own .... ups?

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I agree that MM should have been fully aware of the rules and would / should keep count of his own laps, so therefore his .... up . Even if he had the wrong lap on his pit board he should have known what lap he was on . If he cant keep track of his laps i'm sure the mighty HRC could fit a lap counter to his bike.


 


As for being in the same room when they all agreed to it. As far as i have read there was no meeting where they all agreed to it. I heard it was a piece of paper delivered to each garage . Hence my quip about Dani or Puig relaying the message to Marquez's side of the garage.

baturro

3651081382490004

Do you dream with MM?  See him DQD for the next race, sitting on the pit wall watching his buddies ride by him and MM with a pouty sad face with handcuffs on?  

 

Relax Jum, this sport is watched for enjoyment.  

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haha, wait I thought u were gone. MM should have been doing exactly what u describe after he attempted murder on Wilairot. Seriously. Sat out the rest of the season. The reason we are still talking about Marc being dangerous is because no impression has been made. Quite the contrary, hes got more defiant. Even after the last episode he declared he would not change. So absolutely he should be docked another point on his license. The only thing is that would create a danger for those he would have to pass starting from the back.


I do enjoy myself buddy. I wasn't the one threatening to leave the circuit had this happened while in the stands. That was U.

chopperman

3650701382477081

1 point for coming into the pits late and getting disqualified is wrong imo. That being punished for the same crime twice.


1 point for hitting lorenzo exiting the pits maybe but i do think he has a degree of mitigating circumstance.


I do think Perdosa should still face a punishment.  He committed 3 crimes yet was not punished.


1. crossed the line exiting the pits.


2. did not drop a place


3 ignored the marshals telling him to drop the place.


 


Just because mm got disqualified should not mean pedro goes unpunished imo.

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But Rog, if one is to say that DP was NOT punished as MM was DQ'd and he therefore did not drop position to teh eventual third place getter it is to overlook that MM had not been DQ'd at the time of the DP punishment and was, in effect still in the race thus MM's overtake of DP into turn 4, within the allowed number of laps was the drop in position. Yes, I agree in that DP likely ignored as I do not believe that he ceded position willingly to MM but was overtaken, but irrespective he did drop one position.


 


To argue/state that because MM was DQ'd that it makes the position drop null and void is incorrect in terms of the racing sequence and raises a question of what if after ceding to (Rossi in this case as the example), Ross were then to crash or have a mechanical and fail to finish. Would DP be expected to Cede position to the next in line and so on.


 


The point that MM was DQ'd because he entered and then left the pits one lap to late is a mute point as NO punishment was issued until Race Direction made the formal decision of the penalty and advised the team officials. Essentially, irrespective of the 'crime' the punishment had not been determined and as such and until that is done, MM was free to compete.


 


To go a step further, MM actually is credited with the fastest lap of the race on lap 13 which reinforces that he was still in the race at that point in time (from memory he was black flagged on lap 14).


 


With regards to ignoring marshalls as I understand it there was no indication from the finish line marshalls to DP of any penalty (none shown), only his board that did clearly show a -1 signal at one point but, for ignoring marshalls direction what of Cudlin?


 


Ask as Cudlin was DQ'd just as MM and Staring but he ignored the black flag as he knew better than race direction (since confirmed) as he had entered the pits , changed bikes on lap 9 and re-entered. He then came back to teh pits due to a brake issue a few laps later and swapped again but also changed the rear tyre only (he had changed all tyres previously by the bike swap). He then rejoined but received a black flag for not changing tyres or bikes in the alloted time ............... an official stuff up as he had done so.


 


However, he knew he had played by the rules and continued until teh race completed but he did ignore the marshall ........................ should not he be summarily punished as well (not having any digs either mate as you know)?


 


IMO and from my past knowledge, a rider is in the race up until such time as that race ends, or circumstances lead to their exit from teh race (black flag, crash, mechanical etc). All aspects, application and impositions made by that rider during this time are valid for themselves and all competitiors, with all penalties applied being valid and current. What happens when that rider has left the track is not of their concern and plays no bearing on the race as it were at the time of that rider's exit


 


For me, DP's punishment was wrong in as much as I have never seen or heard of a 'drop a position' penalty applied for a pit lane infringement nor a crossing a blend line. Generally the penalty applied (and I refer to car racing as bikes are rare to use pits in races) is a time penalty or a ride through with the 'drop a position' generally applied to overtaking under caution. It was a very strange penalty that one..


 


 


 


EDIT.


Rog, one that I have not seen verified is that the teams KNEW the punishment for exceeding the window was a DQ. Have not seen it reported nor written and have chatted briefly to some I know who ifficiated at the Island on the weekend and they advise that they had not heard at any officials briefing etc that the offence was a DQ. Maybe Krop or otehrs with connections can confirm if DQ was known but if Edwards tweet is a guide ................ he did not know

Jumkie

3651101382491115

haha, wait I thought u were gone. MM should have been doing exactly what u describe after he attempted murder on Wilairot. Seriously. Sat out the rest of the season. The reason we are still talking about Marc being dangerous is because no impression has been made. Quite the contrary, hes got more defiant. Even after the last episode he declared he would not change. So absolutely he should be docked another point on his license. The only thing is that would create a danger for those he would have to pass starting from the back.


I do enjoy myself buddy. I wasn't the one threatening to leave the circuit had this happened while in the stands. That was U.

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I'm not going anywhere.  Just tired of going around in circles with the same conversation.  I get dizzy after so much of the same banter.  Just a couple more races left.  Then the rookie excuse can't be used.  But I have a good feeling MM won't need it next year.  Boy learns quick.  


 


Un dia en persona tendremos unas buenas risas, birras y porros.  

Gaz. Firstly, when your pit board is telling you to drop a place that is basicly a marshal telling you. Race direction would have told the team who would have told the pit board man to give such order. This order should be followed immediately,especially in such a short race. but i'm sure dani thought he would ignore it hopping his team would appeal like they normally do. Dani chose to take the pit board message as a request rather than an order. Also dropping a place or ending up being overtaken by the rider in that place are 2 different things imo. He should have slowed off the race line until mm had passed, not wait to be beaten to the position. I also think that mm's place should have been disregarded with danis place drop because of the DSQ. Once MM passed dani and mm was DSQ'ed dani had lost nothing in way of punishment. Race direction gave away a place only to give it back. Actually by DSQ'ing mm race direction have helped Dani secure 2nd in the wc. Rather than drop a place they gave him 4 pts.

chopperman

3651131382492246

Gaz. Firstly, when your pit board is telling you to drop a place that is basicly a marshal telling you. Race direction would have told the team who would have told the pit board man to give such order. This order should be followed immediately,especially in such a short race. but i'm sure dani thought he would ignore it hopping his team would appeal like they normally do. Dani chose to take the pit board message as a request rather than an order. Also dropping a place or ending up being overtaken by the rider in that place are 2 different things imo. He should have slowed off the race line until mm had passed, not wait to be beaten to the position. I also think that mm's place should have been disregarded with danis place drop because of the DSQ. Once MM passed dani and mm was DSQ'ed dani had lost nothing in way of punishment. Race direction gave away a place only to give it back. Actually by DSQ'ing mm race direction have helped Dani secure 2nd in the wc. Rather than drop a place they gave him 4 pts.

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Rog, I don't disagree with the essence of what you are saying btw, but essentially a rider (driver0 gets a set number of laps to act when ordered/requested to do so by officials (in Bike racing I understand it is 3 complete laps). During this time, the rider must undertake the action as deemed approprirate by Race Control otherwise he faces a harsher penalty (usually a DQ as experienced by Biaggi in WSBK at Imaola a year or so ago -- funny enough for a blen line issue at T1)


 


Can I ask, if MM was not DQ'd, had overtaken DP and then crashed, would that have meant that DQ still had to drop the position?


 


Asking as IMO the fact that (in this case) MM did not finish the race has no bearing on the penalties applied to others (if acted upon) whilst he was in the race.


 


On the championship finish position, personally I hope not as for mine the two exceptional riders of season 2013 are Lorenzo and Marquez and to see them not finish 1 and 2 in whatever order is or would be a major travesty