Tissot Australian Grand Prix 2013

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michaelm
3652951382587461

He didn't need to . That is the whole point. He didn't even need to win the race, and certainly didn't need to take any risks to win the race. I was tending to think it was a simple error, perhaps related  to him nearly coming of the bike just before he should have gone into the pits, but David Emmett has written a quite detailed article concerning it being a deliberate tactic from him and his crew. They still could be covering up for an error by MM I guess


 


If an article has so be so detailed, convoluted and full of Machiavellain intrigue to refute the suggestion that it may just have been as simple as a Marquez screw up, then....


 


In any case, if Marquez read the ruling and agreed to the 'tactic', then he's an ...... If he didn't read it, and agreed to the tactic, he's an ......


Every single person at the track that I was around knew that the limit was 10 laps. Including the rather inebriated guy who showed it to us on his iPad. Hence the immediate reaction of HA! when Marquez overshot the pit entry.
 
Dr No
3653011382593699

If an article has so be so detailed, convoluted and full of Machiavellain intrigue<u> to refute the suggestion that it may just have been as simple as a Marquez screw up, then....</u>


 


In any case, if Marquez read the ruling and agreed to the 'tactic', then he's an ...... If he didn't read it, and agreed to the tactic, he's an ......


Every single person at the track that I was around knew that the limit was 10 laps. Including the rather inebriated guy who showed it to us on his iPad. Hence the immediate reaction of HA! when Marquez overshot the pit entry.
 
Jumkie
3653101382596713

If the man has to explain, you might not understand buddy.


Then again, MM and presumably these same guys came up with the Willairot incident, which similarly involved going out at the wrong time.
 
Tom
3652621382567368

You said Lorenzo had a motive, this is not something you have when you do something by accident!  Your words '<span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;JL saw him and went a bit wider towards him just to show he wasn't afraid at all.'  


 


That means his attitude was to go towards MM in a confrontational mood, same as what MM was doing. Their intention wasn't to bump into each other, but that followed as a consequence or the sum of their two attitudes. Not much time to think and plan. If it was just a MM screwup, Jorge would have complained loudly, be certain of that.
 
michaelm
3653121382597922

Then again, MM and presumably these same guys came up with the Willairot incident, which similarly involved going out at the wrong time.
That was 2 years ago. Has he leant SFA?

Did he or did he not read the same ruling that was winged around the world, for all of us to read and understand, before the race?

Some things a rider can't control - such as warmers stuck in the front wheel, or the ECU getting the corners wrong, or the whole GPxx Ducati - but at what point do you abbrogate 25 points to a bizarre 'tactic'?

He can tell them to put more rebound on the rear suspension but can't question how many laps to put in?

It is very simple: ask him how many laps HE planned to do.
 
Dr No
3653461382612048

That was 2 years ago. Has he leant SFA?

Did he or did he not read the same ruling that was winged around the world, for all of us to read and understand, before the race?

Some things a rider can't control - such as warmers stuck in the front wheel, or the ECU getting the corners wrong, or the whole GPxx Ducati - but at what point do you abbrogate 25 points to a bizarre 'tactic'?

He can tell them to put more rebound on the rear suspension but can't question how many laps to put in?

It is very simple: ask him how many laps HE planned to do.


I think it is entirely conceivable they (which very much incIudes MM) have learned nothing. He quite recently said the incident 2 years ago was partly Willairot's fault.
 
Jumkie
3652941382587320

He didn't walk in like a guy who was confused about why he was black flagged.


Apparently you haven't read Kropo's article...


 


"<span style="background-color:rgb(252,252,252);color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px;After the race, Marc Marquez told reporters that it had been deliberate strategy to ride for the extra lap. The strategy had been decided by a small group. 'We made the plan together, with three or four guys, with Santi [Hernandez] and with Emilio [Alzamora],' Marquez said, but the plan had backfired. 'The biggest problem was that we thought that it was possible to make that lap,' Marquez said, expressing his surprise at being black flagged. He had thought the penalty was for speeding in the pit lane or crossing the white line too early."
 
Jumkie
3652941382587320

This here like J4rno's suggestion is equally unbelievable and unreasonable.  (Kesh, you agreeing with this ....).  These are motorcycles, not Narcar--where they try and make macho statements by bumping with their rolling cages.  Lorenzo is far too aware of his mortality (unlike Marc) to pull some ........ like run 'slightly' wide to collide 'ever so gently' with his rival.  "way off line"? Are you kidding? I've come to expect head-scratching stuff from you BM, you've made a forum career of it.  You've  had your decent takes (honestly), but in your attempt to be witty, you post some real odd stuff.  Lorenzo was within the "raceline"! No doubt about it.  As proof, take a look at his exit.  If he would have mucked up that turn as you boys suggest, and on purpose no less, that whole turn would have been screw up on exit (such is the forgiveness, or better described 'lack there of) of a MotoGP machine.  You screw up and you'll pay for it dearly. Are you, J4rno and Kesh declaring he was 'outside the raceline'?  Kesh, you have club raced bro, you know damn well what that space means, as its a space on the track where every rider is reasonably expected to operate.  <span style="font-size:24px;That Lorenzo is usually very consistently precise doesn't mean he doesn't mean he has given up rights to that 'parameter within a margin' of  space in which to operate. Do you understand?  Just because he uses very little deviation doesn't make that margin of space available to him.  He is reasonably expected to operate within a space that we term the "raceline", and its much wider than you boys think.  Was he out of that space?  .... no.  Did Marc come into that space?  .... yeah.  You guys act like all riders use the same line, they don't.  And Kesh, tying to make the case that Marc was acutely cognizant that Lorenzo would be within some imaginary space, within a few centimeters, to justify him dive bombing into the few centimeters adjacent to that space is frustrating to read  from you.  As I said, as little as we disagree on, I figured it best to agree to disagree because the debate was going nowhere.  


 


I was thinking about Marc's behavior when he walked into the pit after being black flagged.  He didn't walk in like a guy who was confused about why he was black flagged.  He got off his bike and walked in with resignation.  I honestly wonder if he thought he was black flagged for colliding with Lorenzo.  If we are to believe those who are arguing he was innocent in all this and was 'just following his team's pit signal' there would have been expression of confusion for getting flagged IF he didn't know why.  He rode in like, '...., I screwed up again, I hit another rider again, oh well'.  Climbed off his bike, sat down, the gimp next to him whispers something, THEN we saw some emotion where he stormed out.  Many ways to interpret this, all of them bad.  If he thought he screwed up by hitting Lorenzo, then his initial calm dejection signals he accepted his culpability.  It could also mean he was aware that his team ...... up and gaming the rules was for once punish.  Or he ...... up and lost his concentration on the track just before on the entry to pit lane, perhaps after being distracted in the moment where he experience a moment on the bike, and the red mist of racing Lorenzo blinded him from the immediate obligation to pit, at which point he had all the lap to think about it, realizing his error.  It seems Marc has many people ready to downplay his responsibilities in all this, even Mat Oxley good article above glosses over Marc and his team's obligations (not just to obey the rules, but I'm talking about fair play on the track).  


And it logically follows that Lorenzo's fellow competitors are equally allowed to make a calculated close pass (to the best of their ability) using the same parameters. You're making it sound like Lorenzo (who has pulled a few hairy passes himself lately) has some kind of rule book defined bubble of safety margin that nobody may approach without written permission. It's racing dude.
 
michaelm
3652951382587461

He didn't need to . That is the whole point. He didn't even need to win the race, and certainly didn't need to take any risks to win the race. I was tending to think it was a simple error, perhaps related  to him nearly coming of the bike just before he should have gone into the pits, but David Emmett has written a quite detailed article concerning it being a deliberate tactic from him and his crew. They still could be covering up for an error by MM I guess


This is essentially what I said earlier. Being on the top of the podium at PI was not crucial to his winning the championship.


Yes... he's impulsive etc... but with all this close to the end of the season - it would make no sense to pre-meditatedly


commit an infraction that would cost him the race. He's shown how calculated he can be all season long. He's young


but not as stupid as he looks.
 
Mr Squiggle
3653221382605553

Can you give us the executive summary........... if I am gonna pay those .........s for a spin-doctored version of their own incompetence.


 


MM.  Showered, in street clothes, siting in pit chair. 


HRC goon, possibly Alza. (Krop, can you ID?) to our left, his right.


 




MarcMurder: How were we counting the laps?


HRC Grunt: We've added it up wrong.


MarcMurder: ("WTF" expression)


HRC Grunt: We should have done everything one lap earlier.  By the time you got to the box, lap 10 had gone.


MarcMurder: I came in when you told me to.


HRC Grunt: You did what you had to do.


HRC Grunt #2: You came in at the moment we planned, but we had calculated it wrong.


MarcMurder: (1000 mile stare.)  It's a shame because I felt so strong....

 
 
Someone is spreading the ...... In one quote he says he was in on the plan (with 3-4 others - obviously not Gabbarini) and in another filmed exchange he appears to have no clue. As michaelm alluded to this is the same group of fuckwits who sent him out full-bore when practice was over to demolish Wilairot, which Marc still believes was partially Wilairot's fault. Alzamora = Puig. Peeps saying Marc should know better but when you are virtually raised by fuckwits - lead by a manager who is at the helm of HIS career ahead of yours it is not entirely surprising that the kid has some issues.
 
Mike, Kesh, please read this.  It summarizes my feelings about the MM pit exit clash quite nicely.  (And, more importantly, validates my assumptions!  :D )


 


http://motomatters.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2532&start=150#p62968


 


It sounds like every rider EXCEPT Marc (now there's a surprise! :rolleyes: ) managed to exit the dreaded "Pit Lane of Eternal Peril" in a manifestly safe manner.  Wow, imagine that...


 


I'd also like to clarify my objection to your logic.  You deduce that because JL was admittedly off line, that means he deliberately went out there to get cute with MM. I don't think he would.  It's too risky; he has nowhere to go if MM further tightens his line.  It's also somewhat slower than the more direct line; not by much, but I don't think JL would want to give DP so much as an inch.  Unless you can post substantial evidence supporting your conclusion, I reserve the right to call 'wishful thinking' and BS on you line of reasoning.  K?  :)
 
I'm not entirely sure if 'Mike' is me or michaelm but I'll respond anyway! My first (and often most honest) take of MM vs JL was that MM cut in way too quickly BUT Jlo wasn't having any of that and trundled right on out there to say .... you. To believe that a racer wouldn't hit another at speed and in race mode is naive at best and downright dumb at the worst. I have whacked into other riders on the road in my youth if I felt they were impinging on my piece of tarmac. To think that MGP riders would never do it in a race is just plain blindered. MM is the product of both nature AND nurture and it appears his 'nurturing' has been by a group of fucktards that, along with the invincibility of youth, have convinced him that he can do no wrong. What is happening now is that others (JLo specifically) have decided to fight fire with fire and are not gonna yield. This will eventually end with someone getting hurt. But it is totally understandable on Jlo's part and well with the parameters of racing that I have been involved in.
 
BarryMachine
3652821382576095

Thats what it was ....... how can you folk be so blind ......... at that level I'd say Lorenzo is a "canny" bugger ......... all sorts of stuff are tried in racing. You have to remember again that the riders perspective is much slower than the spectators. Where you see 350km/hr they are actually only experiencing a speed differential in that case of maybe 20kph at point of Lorenzo "shoulder barge"?


 


Lorenzo went way off line ....... accept it.


 


You are dense.  Everyone knows Lorenzo was a little wide, he said so himself.  'way off line' is clearly not correct, and my objection to J4rno was not that Lorenzo didn't go wide, it's that he didn't go wide on purpose.
 

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