There still has to be "smoking monies" involved?

cliche guevara · Jan 22, 2011

J4rn0 said:
Or maybe he just grew up and became more realistic, like all of us.

I do not know anybody who is disappointed with Rossi for that reason -- maybe for other and more serious matters, like the tax issue... See, I can give Rossi's haters better ideas

maybe if i was italian i'd take that as a reason for hate

i personally don't care very much, like tom said you lose your ideals when you get older and i never idolized rossi to the level that i thought he was perfect

J4rn0 · Jan 22, 2011

Jumkie said:
Not because he's any less "flamboyant", but rather, he's had less reasons to put on a production Bollywood celebration. Its kinda hard to go and have some 'look at me' production when your teammate is handing you your .... Don't think for a minute, if he were winning, he'd be back to the 'its all about me' fabrication of Bopper highlight moments.

Recent years include 2008 and 2009, Jum.... I've seen Rossi' attitude changing since 2007, when he was beaten by Stoner in a way he's never been beaten afterwards, and when there was the famous tax scandal. I think he grew up after that. In 2010 you cannot say Lorenzo handed him his ..., considering all the circumstances -- but I know you love to say that

stiefel · Jan 22, 2011

J4rn0 said:
Recent years include 2008 and 2009, Jum.... I've seen Rossi' attitude changing since 2007, when he was beaten by Stoner in a way he's never been beaten afterwards, and when there was the famous tax scandal. I think he grew up after that. In 2010 you cannot say Lorenzo handed him his ..., considering all the circumstances -- but I know you love to say that

uhhhhhhh.... why can't he say that? ..... were handed most definitely. What do you mean by 'considering all the circumstances'?

....ah, what am I stirring here, it smells funny....

Mick D · Jan 24, 2011

I believe J4nr0's idea of ... handing would have been accomplished if Jorge had beaten the field by the same points differential and having all four aliens competing at full health at every race... I'm not so sure I disagree with him.

Mental Anarchist · Jan 24, 2011

Mick D said:
I believe J4nr0's idea of ... handing would have been accomplished if Jorge had beaten the field by the same points differential and having all four aliens competing at full health at every race... I'm not so sure I disagree with him.

Next we will be saying that the mistakes made by the riders which damaged their health were not their fault. Oh that is right some of you are saying that. Rossi's broken leg was Barbara's fault and Bridgestones fault and his motocross accident which damaged his shoulder was Dorna's fault for not having enough testing forcing the riders to cross train to get bike fit and sharp.

Lorenzo made NO mistakes the others did. I would say therefore Lorenzo handed the others their ......

J4rn0 · Jan 24, 2011

If in 2010 Lorenzo "handed everybody their .....", how is one to define Stoner's victory of 2007? One would be lost for lack of words capable to define further ...-handing levels. So words are important. There is a world champion each year and he's always worthy because he wins under the rules and it's hard to do that under any circumstances -- but it is obvious that still there are circumstances... This is true for Rossi and is true for Lorenzo as well.

Tom · Jan 24, 2011

J4rn0 said:
If in 2010 Lorenzo "handed everybody their .....", how is one to define Stoner's victory of 2007? One would be lost for lack of words capable to define further ...-handing levels. So words are important.

Lorenzo was more dominant than Stoner was in 07 against tougher competition.

cliche guevara · Jan 24, 2011

Tom said:
Lorenzo was more dominant than Stoner was in 07 against tougher competition.

I'm not so sure about that, i mean how was the 07 grid less competitive than the 2010 grid?adding to that i think most people would agree that the yamaha was the best bike in 2010 whereas the 2007 duc...well lets not start this again

i personally don't rank one above the other,a world championship is a world championship for me

but yeah, lorenzo handed everybody their ..... undoubtfully last season,one could argue that lorenzo rode so incredibly well last year that he forced his competitors into costly mistakes...maybe except pedrosa who was screwed by a malfunction in the throttle system

Tom · Jan 24, 2011

cliché guevara said:
I'm not so sure about that, i mean how was the 07 grid less competitive than the 2010 grid?adding to that i think most people would agree that the yamaha was the best bike in 2010 whereas the 2007 duc...well lets not start this again

i personally don't rank one above the other,a world championship is a world championship for me

Oh i agree, i don't think any world title is worth more than any other. Lorenzo's title is worth no more than Hayden's, but you would agree that Lorenzo's was more dominant. Of course 2007 was not dramatically different to 2010 but Lorenzo scored more points, won by a greater margin and did so against 3 other Aliens (rather than 2) and 3 motogp champions (rather than 2).

cliche guevara · Jan 24, 2011

Tom said:
Oh i agree, i don't think any world title is worth more than any other. Lorenzo's title is worth no more than Hayden's, but you would agree that Lorenzo's was more dominant. Of course 2007 was not dramatically different to 2010 but Lorenzo scored more points, won by a greater margin and did so against 3 other Aliens (rather than 2) and 3 motogp champions (rather than 2).

well okay theres a point

only thing i'd put forward as an counterargument would be that lorenzo argubly had the better bike, but regardless, he was the man in 2010 just as stoner was in 07

Tom · Jan 24, 2011

cliché guevara said:
only thing i'd put forward as an counterargument would be that lorenzo argubly had the better bike,

I think Lorenzo definitely had the better bike.

J4rn0 · Jan 24, 2011

Tom said:
Lorenzo was more dominant than Stoner was in 07 against tougher competition.

Nope, because the tougher competition in 2010 self-destroyed. That does not detract from his title, but he actually rode many races pretty much alone, with his main competitors at the hospital. Again, no fault of him -- but the "tough competition" wasn't physically there on the track in those races, and that does matter.

Tom · Jan 24, 2011

J4rn0 said:
Nope, because the tougher competition in 2010 self-destroyed. That does not detract from his title, but he actually rode many races pretty much alone, with his main competitors at the hospital. Again, no fault of him -- but the "tough competition" wasn't physically there on the track in those races, and that does matter.

Lorenzo was more dominant, it isn't an opinion. The competition in 07 self destroyed anyway. Rossi was mentaly not there because he was too busy complaining about his bike to try and work on his riding.

Jumkie · Jan 24, 2011

Tom said:
Lorenzo was more dominant, it isn't an opinion. The competition in 07 self destroyed anyway. Rossi was mentaly not there because he was too busy complaining about his bike to try and work on his riding.

As I recall, the competition self destroyed in 06 too. Something about being distracted contemplating a Ferrari right was it?

The competition self destroyed in 08, 09, 10, 11 too (Yeah I know 2011 is in the future, but I'm being preemptive).

Tom · Jan 24, 2011

Jumkie said:
As I recall, the competition self destroyed in 06 too. Something about being distracted contemplating a Ferrari right was it?

The competition self destroyed in 08, 09, 10, 11 too (Yeah I know 2011 is in the future, but I'm being preemptive).

Exactly, many riders on the grid are good enough to be world champion in any given year, but when its over one is champion and all of the others have not achieved at their highest level, or have 'self destroyed'.

J4rn0 · Jan 24, 2011

Jumkie said:
As I recall, the competition self destroyed in 06 too. Something about being distracted contemplating a Ferrari right was it?

The competition self destroyed in 08, 09, 10, 11 too (Yeah I know 2011 is in the future, but I'm being preemptive).

I'm sorry, in 2008 the two main contenders (i.e. Rossi and Stoner) did not self-destroy. Lorenzo did but he was a rookie, and Pedro was the usual Pedro.

In 2009 Stoner self-destroyed, but Lorenzo didn't and he and Rossis fought it out until almost the end. SO again the two main contenders stood on their feet for the entire season.

In 2010 two out of four main contenders were hospitalized for serious injuries, only Stoner stayed healthy in spite of many crashes, but inconsistent. The main competition for Lorenzo at a certain point of the season was Dovi... That tells a lot. We didn't have two main contenders throughout the season as in the previous two years.

Re. 2011 we all certainly hope (you included I'm sure) that nobody self-destroys.

Tom · Jan 24, 2011

J4rn0 said:
That tells a lot. We didn't have two main contenders throughout the season as in the previous two years.

Yes it does tell us a lot, there wasn't two main contenders because one man stood a cut above the rest leaving the main battle for 2nd place. That is the nature of domination

J4rn0 · Jan 24, 2011

Tom said:
Yes it does tell us a lot, there wasn't two main contenders because one man stood a cut above the rest leaving the main battle for 2nd place. That is the nature of domination

Unfortunately, that is not the nature of an interesting (leave alone exciting) season.

2007, 2008, 2009 were much, much better than 2010 my dear Tom. Dominating on hospitalized rivals does not make a championship, or a champion, the greatest. Maybe Lorenzo will truly dominate this year, then you can truly celebrate.

Tom · Jan 24, 2011

J4rn0 said:
Unfortunately, that is not the nature of an interesting (leave alone exciting) season.

2007, 2008, 2009 were much, much better than 2010 my dear Tom. Dominating on hospitalized rivals does not make a championship, or a champion, the greatest. Maybe Lorenzo will truly dominate this year, then you can truly celebrate.

2007, 08 and 09 were much better in your opinion. I don't think it was the most exciting season in terms of action, but i think there is more to the seasons value than that, but that is besides the point. I never mentioned greatness, but Lorenzo is a champion without a doubt and he truly dominated 2010 weather you like it or not.

dwoodhouse · Jan 24, 2011

J4rn0 said:
Unfortunately, that is not the nature of an interesting (leave alone exciting) season.

2007, 2008, 2009 were much, much better than 2010 my dear Tom. Dominating on hospitalized rivals does not make a championship, or a champion, the greatest. Maybe Lorenzo will truly dominate this year, then you can truly celebrate.

I'm impressed with your patience J4rno at arguing your point without losing your cool.

There still has to be "smoking monies" involved?

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