There still has to be "smoking monies" involved?

Frizzle said:

But in all honesty who gives a fat rats who sponsors the team? As long as the teams have the funds to race i don't care.

Click to expand...

Roger does. I'm looking forward to how he'll get out of this one.

Oh, Jum, can you really condemn Rossi for having now a more sensible approach and think exactly like YOU about tobacco money?

J4rn0 said:

Oh, Jum, can you really condemn Rossi for having now a more sensible approach and think exactly like YOU about tobacco money?

Click to expand...

i think you don't get the point that its not about what any of us think about tobacco sponsors but only about the fact that rossi now uses what he condemned in public .

i don't really give a .... about this one but i can understand that a lot of rossi fans are very dissappointed because no matter how you put it : the guy sold out in that respect

J4rn0 said:

Oh, Jum, can you really condemn Rossi for having now a more sensible approach and think exactly like YOU about tobacco money?

Click to expand...

Yes the point is Rossi made public comments about what he wouldn't do and then did it. You can see how to some people like Roger or Jumkie that he has devalued his character by gaining the credit for having certain principles and not sticking to them. He sold out. I don't think it matters because he made those comments when he was much younger and much less wise than he is now, everyone has ideals when they are a teenager that they don't still have at 30. It makes no difference to me, but i will enjoy Roger 'doing a Rossi' and going back on his word

Tom said:

Yes the point is Rossi made public comments about what he wouldn't do and then did it. You can see how to some people like Roger or Jumkie that he has devalued his character by gaining the credit for having certain principles and not sticking to them. He sold out. I don't think it matters because he made those comments when he was much younger and much less wise than he is now, everyone has ideals when they are a teenager that they don't still have at 30. It makes no difference to me, but i will enjoy Roger 'doing a Rossi' and going back on his word

Click to expand...

Oh yes, and I'm sure Jum promised many, many times that he would stop drinking too much, and then didn't

cliché guevara said:

i think you don't get the point that its not about what any of us think about tobacco sponsors but only about the fact that rossi now uses what he condemned in public .

i don't really give a .... about this one but i can understand that a lot of rossi fans are very dissappointed because no matter how you put it : the guy sold out in that respect

Click to expand...

Or maybe he just grew up and became more realistic, like all of us.

I do not know anybody who is disappointed with Rossi for that reason -- maybe for other and more serious matters, like the tax issue... See, I can give Rossi's haters better ideas

J4rn0 said:

I see -- the whole point (for some) is this: we are not against tobacco money, all money is welcome, we really don't care BUT we want to condemn Rossi because he is taking money from Marlboro -- oh, we have nothing against Marlboro, for sure -- it's just because he once said, years ago, that he would not have any tobacconist sponsor: and now, gotcha! he has one. And he already had Gauloise and Camel before, so he's really shameless. We can safely despise him now.

Great

Click to expand...

If thats a dig at me then i suggest your read what i wrote because your way off base http://www.powerslide.net/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif

J4rn0 said:

Or maybe he just grew up and became more realistic, like all of us.

I do not know anybody who is disappointed with Rossi for that reason -- maybe for other and more serious matters, like the tax issue... See, I can give Rossi's haters better ideas

Click to expand...

When it comes to internet discussions of morals or ethics, eventually the lowest common denominator

factor of Adolf H will come into play. In this case - using your logic - we could say that in his youth Adolph

limited himself to merely disliking Jews - but later he became more realistic and acted according to his

more mature nature - which made it all okay.



Clearly Rossi stated that he'd committed himself to a heroic moral/ethical standard that he felt strongly enough

that he felt the need to state it to the press. Fans hailed the announcement. Now he's lapsed in his determination

to uphold that standard - hence he's less of a hero to those that thought so highly of the original decision.

End of discussion.



BTW - when did Jumkie ever say he was going to drink less? When he was drunk?

chopperman said:

If thats a dig at me then i suggest your read what i wrote because your way off base http://www.powerslide.net/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif

Click to expand...

Actually I wasn't thinking of you, but thanks for the consideration

Keshav said:

....

BTW - when did Jumkie ever say he was going to drink less? When he was drunk?

Click to expand...

Probably - and we do not know what the young Rossi had smoked when he made his own promise

If Jum in fact made a pledge to drink less - it must have been when he was recruiting

potential RV passengers for the annual pilgrimage to Laguna because you know what

the say: What the difference between a straight Mexican and a gay one?

























Three tequilas.

J4rn0 said:

Actually I wasn't thinking of you, but thanks for the consideration

Click to expand...

Well i have not read anyone else here share my opinion on this matter. My opinion has nothing to do with tobacco sponsor money as such, it has more to do with being a man of your word ! People do change their minds and that's fine. The decent thing to do especially when you have been so out spoken is to be just as out spoken as to why you have now changed your mind. For most people it would not be so much of an issue, but to be such a flamboyant media icon i believe it was necessary in Rossi's case. Well imo anyways !

You always know when Jumkie is scared he starts denouncing people like this is some kind of Soviet Republic, or he is Powerslides very own senator Joe McCarthy.



Life imprisoment in Jumkies yellow gulag.

Can't find the original link, lifted this off of another forum:



================================================

THE .....'S GUIDE TO MOTOGP: The Devil is in the details (Part III)

Written by: Dennis Noyes

Borrego Springs, Calif. – 1/4/2006



They will be retelling these stories for years to come and at least one of these strange tales will probably be studied by the Harvard Business School along with other confusing classic imbroglios like “Ducati & Texas Pacific Group---A ‘Wild Ride’ Leveraged Buyout” (Currently available from HBS.)



Today Sito Pons announced that due to the withdrawal of his major sponsor, Camel, the two-times World 250 Champion and owner of what has been clearly the most successful satellite team in the history of modern Grand Prix racing, the Pons Honda team will not take part in the 2006 MotoGP world championship. Apparently his attempts to bring in Postal, the Spanish mail service, as a sponsor, came up short. (Even Postal would have preferred Biaggi, who got his first two-wheel training as a motorbike messenger in Rome.)



At the same time stories are coming out of Italy about a possible move by Camel to the factory Yamaha team of Valentino Rossi and Colin Edwards…all this at a time when the two riders left without a ride due to the loss of sponsorship at Team Pons, Max Biaggi (who wanted to return) and Alex Barros (who wanted to stay) were both send scrambling to try and put together World Superbike rides.



Barros has just announced today that he found budget from “a global sponsor” (un-named) and Honda Brazil, and will ride in the Klaffi Honda team alongside young German Max Neukirchner. The bike will be prepared with full support from Honda Europe.



Biaggi has had very recent talks with Federico Minoli, CEO of Ducati Motorholdings (now controlled by the Italian investment group Investindustia who bought the shares owned by Texas Pacific Group holdings), with Francis Batta, owner of the World Championship winning Alstare Corona Extra Suzuki team, and with Carlo Fiorani of Honda Europe, the man in charge of support to World Superbike and World Supersport teams.



Ducati, with Troy Bayliss (riding for Camel Honda Pons in 2005) and Lorenzo Lanzi on the works Ducati Corse team and supporting the Austin Ducati team in the AMA, the Airwaves Ducati team in the BSB and also assisting the Carrachi Ducati team, with Roberto Rolfo, and the newly formed Sterilgarda Berik Ducati team which will be the new home from returning Superbike hero Ruben Xaus, probably have too much on their plate to make room for Max now in Superbike. In fact they probably feel they don’t need a rider who does not know the tracks or the bikes, especially after the very fast lap times put up in preseason World Superbike tests by veteran Bayliss and young Lanzi.



Barros, Bayliss, Rolfo, Xaus and possibly even Biaggi….a veritable diaspora of MotoGP talent…all displaced stars and winners with known names for the SBK posters and with strong fan support in their respective countries.



Now that we are up to date, let’s look at the details of the Camel decision to leave Team Pons.





Who Really Choked on the Smoke? Yamaha or Rossi?



The Altadis contract for Gauloises sponsorship that is still currently “active” would oblige Altadis to sponsor the “Yamaha Factory MotoGP Team” for two years, the already completed 2005 season and the up-coming 2006 season. Altadis signed this agreement when Yamaha had not yet confirmed Valentino Rossi (or Colin Edwards) for the 2006 season.



Sometime early in the season Yamaha notified Altadis that, although Valentino Rossi had signed to ride for Yamaha in 2006, the Italian would not be part of the “Yamaha Factory MotoGP Team” referred to in the Altadis-Yamaha agreement.



The idea was, then, that Gauloises would sponsor a “factory team” that did not include Rossi…possibly a team consisting of Edwards and a rider to be named later, perhaps even a French rider nominated by Altadis.



Needless to say Yamaha were unable to slip this sunrise past the Altadis rooster.



All hell broke lose in the Altadis offices and it wasn’t long before “Legal” was involved on both sides, but no suits were filed and still haven’t been as far as I know.



Yamaha’s Lin Jarvis kept mum, but Altadis’ executives were livid and spoke their mind. At the Japanese Grand Prix at Motegi Dani Hindenoch, Communications Officer for Altadis reporting to Central Marketing Director Drago Azinovic, and speaking on behalf of Gauloises and Fortuna, two of the family of over twenty brands of tobacco owned by Altadis, told me, “The matter regarding Yamaha and Valentino Rossi is now in the hands of our attorneys and we are waiting for a response from Yamaha. Speaking frankly the situation is one that anyone can understand. Altadis agreed with Yamaha to sponsor the factory Yamaha team. It was understood that Yamaha did not have Valentino Rossi contracted for the 2006 season but it was understood that if Rossi signed it would be with the factory team. The possibility that Rossi would go to another team was an accepted risk, but not that he would ride for Yamaha on a “private” team. There are only two acceptable conclusions to this matter for Altadis: that Rossi returns to the Gauloises Yamaha team in 2006 or that Yamaha compensates Altadis. Until this matter is resolved satisfactorily all of our involvement in the MotoGP class, both as Gauloises and Fortuna, are frozen. Fortuna’s agreements in the 250 class are not affected.”



Hindenoch would not be drawn into speculating as to the motives behind Yamaha’s decision. The credible Italian motorcycling press carried several very similar versions. The most diaphanous version theorized that Valentino Rossi simply did not want to be associated with cigarette publicity and had included a clause in his contract that left him free to reject tobacco advertising. A more cunning version of the same story also said that Rossi’s contract included a clause that allowed him to reject a tobacco sponsor, but went on to suggest that Rossi had already signed some kind of agreement with Philip Morris in connection with the Ferrari Formula One team…either that he had already agreed to drive for Ferrari as a tester in 2006 or that his agreement extended to a full F1 driver’s contract for 2007…but in both cases with the stipulation that he carry no branding that would rival Marlboro.



The third and more conspiratorial version of the story is that Yamaha agreed to all this willingly because the Japanese members of the MSMA (Motorcycle Sports Manufacturers’ Association) had already agreed to wean their members from tobacco advertising over the next two years…honoring existing contracts but looking for any loopholes of escape.



But both these theories are blown sky high if it is true that some sort of discussions have recently taken place between Yamaha and Camel about the possibility of a Rossi-Camel-Yamaha team.



Could it be, and I am only speculating, that there are issues between Rossi and Gauloises that have nothing to do with tobacco? Does Gauloises rub Rossi the wrong way?



Or is it that Yamaha believed that Rossi would put together his own sponsor package with Alice (the broadband internet provider of Telecom Italia), and Nastro Azzuro? There was even talk of McDonalds. Italian sources said the Alice deal was rejected because Rossi would be testing with Vodafone publicity on the Marlboro Ferrari in 2006. Is the Camel possibility being considered because, without a sponsor, the team will be short of funding?



The funniest and scariest theory offered by credible Spanish and Italian journalists is that Rossi, who loves the color yellow, wants to have a yellow bike and yellow leathers. The meanest theory is that Valentino wants the satisfaction of driving Max Biaggi from the paddock and taking his sponsor.







The Camel Caper/ How Max became a non-person



The whole Biaggi affaire is so bizarre that anything seems possible. We’ll probably know who killed Kennedy before we learn what really caused Honda to, as the British say, throw their toys out of the pram (lose their cool).



The paddock story is that Honda became so angered by Biaggi’s statements to the press and, the Italian press suggests, by his verbal abuse of Honda staff, that they decided, after an especially acrimonious episode in Istanbul, not just to fire the four time 250 World Champion, but also to refuse to supply machines for his use to any of Honda’s satellite teams.



Biaggi carried personal sponsorship from Camel (Japanese International Tobacco) even after leaving the Camel Honda Pons team at the end of the 2004 season to join the full factory Repsol Honda team. Sito Pons had allegedly been told by Camel that they would renew their sponsorship with the well-established and successful Pons team only if Biaggi was signed for 2006.



Normally Honda HRC’s approval of a factory Honda rider moving to a satellite Honda team would be automatic, as when Barros moved from the Repsol HRC works team to the Camel Pons satellite team last year. But not this time.



In fact, even though he carried a considerable Camel sponsorship package under his arm, Biaggi was turned down by Suzuki. This was because Suzuki had already signed an agreement with Rizla (the Dutch cigarette paper company), but the fact that there were discussions at all indicates that some kind of accommodation might have been possible.



Things went further with Kawasaki until Bridgestone nixed the deal for a third bike for Max alongside Shinya Nakano and Randy De Puniet, stating that they did not have the capacity to produce tires for an additional rider. (A slightly more credible reason for Bridgestone’s refusal to supply Max might be the fact that, due to his peculiar riding style, Max heats tires less than other riders and that to develop a tire for Max would take Bridgestone down a path very different that the one that aggressive riders like Sete Gibernau, Loris Capirossi, Chris Vermuelen and John Hopkins prefer…but, on the other hand, Kawasaki’s lead rider, Shinya Nakano, has a style similar to Max and Randy de Puniet, up from 250, will probably also prefer a 250 style more like Max’s.)



Max also spoke to Team Roberts about the possibility of bringing Camel sponsorship to the team and riding as team mate of Kenny Roberts Junior on Honda powered KR machines. These talks did not prosper probably because of Honda’s objections to supplying RC211V five-cylinder engines for Biaggi. Or was it the tobacco thing again?



If there is an ulterior anti-tobacco motive behind all this on Honda’s side, why did Honda accept the Altadis brand Fortuna to sponsor the Gresini satellite team (Marco Melandri and Toni Elias)? Perhaps because Fortuna is not an internationally known brand and, therefore, is not a “blatant” tobacco sponsor…perhaps because otherwise Fausto Gresini would not have had the money to run this team and Honda would have had to bail him out in order to keep the young and talented Melandri on competitive Honda machinery. (Fortuna would not have gone to the team without Elias.)



Clearly there is more to Max’s sacking than simple dissatisfaction with his results. If the dismissed Honda factory rider had been fired simply because of performance, as was the case with Alex Barros at the end of 2003, no one in HRC would have refused an outstanding satellite team like Honda Pons its choice of rider. Clearly the Biaggi veto and its disastrous effect on the economy of Team Pons invite us to wonder. Tobacco is, after all, a legal product still, with growing restrictions and a very limited future, but while factory teams may prefer to move away from tobacco branding, it seems extreme that Honda would deprive a satellite team of a sponsor just to avoid distant association with a tobacco company when that same factory, Honda, will even continue running Lucky Strike branding on their BAR Formula 1 team in 2006.



Max must have done something or said something that constituted the straw that broke the camel’s back…no pun intended…and Honda fired him. It would never have been necessary for a secret meeting to have taken place between Japanese factory bosses where it was agreed that the veto of Max would include the Big Four. In a country where “non verbal communication” often means more than actual words, the message travels fast.







Honda Youth Movement



Or maybe, at the end of the day, Honda just decided that they had given the veteran riders a shot and it hadn’t worked. Now it was time to move veteran riders on. Barros, Bayliss, Gibernau, Biaggi and now Checa, all thirty-somethings with, in Honda’s view, their best days behind them, replaced on the Honda V5s by a new generation of fast and compact riders, Pedrosa, Elias, Stoner, joining Hayden and Melandri, and hedging their bet on youth by providing motors to Team Roberts for former 500 World Champion Kenny Roberts Junior to use in the KR chassis.



(If Honda were obliged to form a basketball team of RC211V riders in 2006 Nicky Hayden would be the big man on a team averaging about 5’4. And they’d probably win too, because only Honda has enough riders to put five men on the floor.)



I prefer to believe this is all just a Honda youth movement. But Camel rejected the option of returning to team Pons without Max and sponsoring young Australian Casey Stoner along with journeyman Carlos Checa.



It seems that Camel Europe has very specific interest in sponsoring an Italian superstar, not a kid from Australia and an ex-Marlboro veteran (Max was also a Marlboro rider, but several that was three seasons back). Left out of the Honda youth movement, rejected by Kawasaki and Suzuki and also by Team Roberts (due to Honda’s allergy to Max) it appears that Camel are still interested in staying in MotoGP and are talking to Yamaha. How ‘ bout Rossi for an Italian superstar?



But if Altadis, as they say in their press release, quoted here yesterday, really have language in the contract that obliges Yamaha to refrain from involvement with any sponsor that competes with Gauloises, a Yamaha-Camel deal can only be possible if some compensation agreement is reached.



So, do Camel and Gauloises have any pieces to trade on the worldwide monopoly board or does Japanese International Tobacco have to write a big check not just to Yamaha Motor Company but also to Altadis/Seita?



Let’s go on to something a lot more simple…as simple as two Spanish companies fighting over a Spanish superstar in the making.







The Telefonica-Movistar Saga



Honda HRC signed a contract with Telefonica-Movistar’s MotoGP rider of the future, two times and current 250 World Champion Dani Pedrosa, and agreed to assign him to the Repsol Honda team as team mate of American Nicky Hayden. This angered Telefonica Movistar, the company that ran the talent search Movistar Cup that discovered Pedrosa and developed his talent in 125 with former GP 500 star Alberto Puig as mentor.



Their idea was to bring Dani into the Telefonica Movistar Honda Gresini team along with Sete Gibernau, but Honda had decided to go back to their old game plan of concentrating almost exclusively on the one true HRC factory team…and this was a condition of Repsol’s renewal. Repsol executives say that they signed on with HRC as sponsors of the “factory team” with reason to believe that Pedrosa would be signed by HRC, but with no language in the contract that assured this.



A verbal, then, is all they had at that time, and perhaps a letter of intent.



Honda had tried last year and continued to try early this year to get Repsol and Telefonica Movistar to work together, with Telefonica Movistar as secondary sponsor on the Repsol team and perhaps with Repsol as secondary sponsor on the Gresini Telefonica team. Past attempts to work together had poisoned the well and it was soon clear to HRC that this would not work. Then, before the final Repsol – HRC deal was signed, Telefonica-Movistar executives made Honda their famous “offer they can’t refuse” which consisted in tacking on a few million more, hoping Honda would break allegiance with the sponsor that they have worked with since 1995, the year of Doohan’s second title.



Fat chance. Honda is a tough company to deal with but they are they known to be loyal. I remember Soichiro Honda wearing a Rothmans Honda jacket at the Spanish GP at Jarama in 1985, instead of the generic Honda uniform. It was an extraordinary thing at the time and set Honda policy toward sponsors based on close ties and long term relationships.



Unable to displace Repsol, Telefonica made one last run at Repsol but Honda had informed Repsol of Telefonica’s attempted end run and a Reposl executive told the Spanish press at Catalunya, “We will always talk to other companies, but it is difficult to negotiate with a company that tried unsuccessfully to take our place with a team we have sponsored for ten years.



Telefonica Movistar, foiled again, decided to pull out, announcing this on the very day that Pedrosa won his third world title in three years at Phillip Island, Australia. (Pedrosa won the 125 title in 2003 and has taken back-to-back 250 titles, always riding in Telefonica-Movistar blue.)



Antonio Lombardia, Sponsorship Director of the Spanish phone and cell phone company, admitted that, following the breakdown of the Repsol-Honda talks, he has discussed the possibility of moving in to take the place of Gauloises in the factory Yamaha team, but had declined saying, “Our involvement with Rossi would only be for a single season and then we imagine that he would join Ferrari where one of the sponsors is our direct rival Vodafone. We want more than a one-year involvement.”



Instead Telefonica decided to concentrate their motorsports sponsorship exclusively in Formula 1 and on Renault’s new World Champion and Spanish national hero Fernando Alonso.



Ironically, however, Alonso has signed with McLaren Mercedes for 2007 and with Vodafone as the new sponsor…meaning that another Spanish superstar will leave Telefonica after the 2006 season just as Pedrosa left them at the end of this season.



While six of the eleven MotoGP teams are still un-sponsored as we move into 2006, three big sponsors with the firm desire to continue with specific riders have been shunned and driven away.



What is really happening here, I believe, is that the Japanese manufacturers are sending a strong message that sponsors are welcome to back teams, but not to choose riders. It is also clear that, in spite of efforts by Dorna to prolong the agony of the death of tobacco sponsorship in televised motorsport, the Japanese MSMA members have decided to discourage tobacco advertising. (Remember, the Winston-sponsored Ten Kate Honda team in World Superbike has no direct contact with Honda HRC and is backed by Honda Europe, outside the sphere of influence of the MSMA.)



It was a Honda HRC executive who, off the cuff at a Tokyo press dinner in 2004, said it best: “With the amount of money that MotoGP costs, the contributions of the sponsors are like tips.”



That sentence takes on an even deeper meaning when you take into consideration the fact that Japanese culture, unlike that of every other country that racing has taken me to over the last thirty years, does not solicit, welcome or, in most cases, even accept tips.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You do have to wonder if certain stories have become fact over time, rather than being true.

chopperman said:

Well i have not read anyone else here share my opinion on this matter. My opinion has nothing to do with tobacco sponsor money as such, it has more to do with being a man of your word ! People do change their minds and that's fine. The decent thing to do especially when you have been so out spoken is to be just as out spoken as to why you have now changed your mind. For most people it would not be so much of an issue, but to be such a flamboyant media icon i believe it was necessary in Rossi's case. Well imo anyways !

Click to expand...

Interesting choice of words. Next you'll be calling on Rossi to come out of the closet. The worm has turned.

chopperman said:

Well i have not read anyone else here share my opinion on this matter. My opinion has nothing to do with tobacco sponsor money as such, it has more to do with being a man of your word ! People do change their minds and that's fine. The decent thing to do especially when you have been so out spoken is to be just as out spoken as to why you have now changed your mind. For most people it would not be so much of an issue, but to be such a flamboyant media icon i believe it was necessary in Rossi's case. Well imo anyways !

Click to expand...

It depends what the word was about... Is this something so important, and are you sure you would like others to be so exacting with you on similar matters? Anyway, Rossi has been much less "flamboyant" in recent years,and after the tax scandal he learned to keep a lower profile and concentrate more on being a rider. Which is all he has to do imho.

J4rn0 said:

It depends what the word was about... Is this something so important, and are you sure you would like others to be so exacting with you on similar matters? Anyway, Rossi has been much less "flamboyant" in recent years,and after the tax scandal he learned to keep a lower profile and concentrate more on being a rider. Which is all he has to do imho.

Click to expand...

Ahh Paisan... it may be all he has to do, but he's gone to great lengths to - using all sorts of antics and

showbiz ploys to position himself at the epicenter of the MGP world. He's very deliberately stepped into

the role he currently plays.

J4rn0 said:

It depends what the word was about... Is this something so important, and are you sure you would like others to be so exacting with you on similar matters? Anyway, Rossi has been much less "flamboyant" in recent years,and after the tax scandal he learned to keep a lower profile and concentrate more on being a rider. Which is all he has to do imho.

Click to expand...

Not because he's any less "flamboyant", but rather, he's had less reasons to put on a production Bollywood celebration. Its kinda hard to go and have some 'look at me' production when your teammate is handing you your .... Don't think for a minute, if he were winning, he'd be back to the 'its all about me' fabrication of Bopper highlight moments.

chopperman said:

Well i have not read anyone else here share my opinion on this matter. My opinion has nothing to do with tobacco sponsor money as such, it has more to do with being a man of your word ! People do change their minds and that's fine. The decent thing to do especially when you have been so out spoken is to be just as out spoken as to why you have now changed your mind. For most people it would not be so much of an issue, but to be such a flamboyant media icon i believe it was necessary in Rossi's case. Well imo anyways !

Click to expand...

I applaud your consistent response on this issue and the clear difference in your stance to anti-tobacco.