Joined Jun 2008
1K Posts | 365+
USA
LOL!!!!!
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LOL!!!!!
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I've always said it was a big mistake for rossi to ride for Ducati. One ofthe issues which I feel is most prevalent at present in this particular debate is the bridgestones.
Ducati have been complaining all season long about the rubber, tech 3 and the factory yamahas have both also complained heavily. And now vito has come out and said that this years rubber is very different to last years, adding serious weight to the whole Rossi/stoner debate. Interesting to note that many aren't referencing this rather valid issue.
Even stoner has had problems with thecurrent bridestone rubber, however Honda seems to be having the least amount of issue. Not surprisingly they also have the highest rubber order on their prod machines....
Ducati have been complaining all season long about the rubber, tech 3 and the factory yamahas have both also complained heavily. And now vito has come out and said that this years rubber is very different to last years, adding serious weight to the whole Rossi/stoner debate. Interesting to note that many aren't referencing this rather valid issue.
Even stoner has had problems with thecurrent bridestone rubber, however Honda seems to be having the least amount of issue. Not surprisingly they also have the highest rubber order on their prod machines....
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Joined Jun 2008
1K Posts | 365+
USA
Oh boy, the Rossi nut clinging continues with this bopper. So what IF, he does end up at Gresini next year & fail to beat Stoner??? Are you gonna continue making excuses for him?? I am sure we will hear the San Carlo vz Repsol excuse from you.
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Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Oh boy, the Rossi nut clinging continues with this bopper. So what IF, he does end up atGresiniDucati next year & fail to beat Stoner??? Are you gonna continue making excuses for him??
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Rewind a year and it was this
Whilst honda are undoubtedly the most influential player, the problem is the control tyre, which rossi with pedrosa and puig's assistance largely engineered by ensuring michelin's demise, when hrc by all reports were inclined to stick with their long term tyre partner. This is the problem with making short term decisions based on the events of one year (2007).
Ducati went radical because they knew they couldn't beat honda and yamaha with a conventional bike, particularly without the best rider of such bikes. They managed to develop a bike which was at least temporarily competitive but highly dependent on a tyre they developed over several years with the previous bridesmaid tyre company. This was taken away from them almost immediately they were successful, ironically given the current situation after much complaint of unfair advantage. I actually think the control tyre suits some riders (particularly lorenzo and pedrosa) better, as well as suiting the conventional Japanese bikes more, so I don't think the tyres are necessarily focused on honda, although I also would not say that couldn't happen. I think the tyres suiting pedrosa is counterbalanced by other aspects of the honda suiting stoner better and dani always being injured, btw.
Should ducati be able to have tyres developed to better suit their bike? Absolutely, but that is not the nature of a control tyre, with which as kropotkin says you have to make the bike suit the tyres. Ducati foresaw all this, hence their play to go to michelin to keep them in the game and avoid a control tyre.
I am not sure the control tyre rule even saves money for the teams; it certainly seems not to have done so for ducati. I guess it does for bridgestone, and to be fair michelin were financially straitened prior to their demise, such that the sns tyres became unviable for them prior to 2007 apart from anything else.
I don't think the control tires are an issue. According to all accounts, the tires are horrid, but they are horrid for everyone.
The issue is the headstock. Ben says Rossi's headstock development makes it feel like the front is shod with a soft tire. Rossi doesn't have his flexible front headstock, and he is not happy about it. I don't know if this Ducati thing is going to work out, but for the first time in his life, Rossi might actually have to be patient. New tires are on the way for next season.
In regards to Ducati's rider selection, they need to do what they inadvertently did in 2007. Ducati swore off the two-veteran-rider strategy and they went in search of young blood. Hayden was 25 at the time, and Melandri was just 24, but neither rider could/would go. Ducati ended up with 21-year-old newly-wed Casey Stoner who was known as a crasher. Ducati won their first title.
Maybe Phillip Morris and Ducati Corse need to spend some time on the therapists couch b/c they don't seem to be learning anything.
Joined Jun 2008
1K Posts | 365+
USA
It is true as you imply that a control tyre cannot be unfair, since if the tyre is horrid (which it would seem to be for most currently at least in terms of early race performance when cold), it is for everyone as you say.
Imo this does not mean it is not a problem for ducati and for some of the riders, notably tony elias, just that this is not due to a conspiracy; extreme tyre preferences or radical designs are not going to be suited by a control tyre which in the nature of things is going to have characteristics in the middle ground. It was always said before the control tyre that rossi's and stoner's preferred tyre could not be ridden by anybody else.
I have some sympathy with ducati who didn't want the control tyre and I think it does limit them if the tyre they are given also has to suit the aluminium space frame bikes of their competitors with ducati already up against against it in terms of relative engineering resources anyway. It also seems strange to have a control tyre, which militates against ducati, but allow whatever arcane engineering exercises however expensive honda/the msma choose to conduct otherwise.
I am sure that there are other aspects of the bike which just don't suit rossi as you say though, and the lack of testing time under the current rules makes it harder to address this.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Like all conspiracy ideas, the idea that Bridgestone may intentionally favor one manufacturer or the other is devoid of any foundation. As single suppliers, of course they'll have to strive to suit the majority of the grid. Those who have set themselves intentionally out of the mainstream will have to change their bikes to adapt to the tires, more than others -- if the bike lacks adaptability, it should be made more adaptable. This appears to be the case for Ducati, if they do not want to keep declining.
Jorge is very good. He rode that bike very close to its limit; no-one could go much quicker, even Valentino. Rossi had a slight edge on him almost everywhere, but as soon as Vale encountered issues in set-up, Jorge was hounding him relentlessly.
That's a pretty narrow view of matters. Any title (or points) are a mixture of rider, team, bike and fortune. Some years, you have more of one thing, and less of another. To attribute Jorge's win to the rider solely is misguided and unrealistic.
See this thread: http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=13478&hl=&fromsearch=1
Please do not attribute statements to me that I have not said. I never stated that I want to discount Jorge's achievement. I merely stated that Jorge's achievement in beating Rossi in 2010 cannot realistically be attributed to 'Lorenzo's superiority' over Rossi. He might have beaten him. He might not have beaten him. The point is, we will never know.
Unsurprisingly, you have failed to address my points - Valentino's broken leg and injured shoulder make any comparison between the speed of the two a little humorous. It's like saying Stoner was superior to Dani this year. Dani has been out injured for many races - the mere fact of Stoner's ascendancy in the points rankings cannot be solely attributed to Casey's superior talent as Dani has not been healthy to make any comparison between the two. We will never know, we can only speculate. Casey might still be in front if Dani were healthy. He might not be. The point is, it's all speculation! You too, are speculating.
Yes, then Rossi beat him senseless for the next few seasons.
No. As I stated, championships are won because of a multitude of factors. The weighting of each factor can only be considered properly against the context of many seasons. For example, when Rossi jumped on the hitherto pathetic M1 and won the title, then we can discount that the RCV was the major factor in his success. You seem to have a short memory.
I didn't suggest that this had no bearing, as you claim. You are imagining things. Anyway, experience is one asset, but so is youth, desire and hunger. You are the one making excuses for Jorge. Ultimately, in 2008 and 2009, he was clearly not up to the task of beating Valentino. Would he have been in 2010 if VR didn't get injured? Well, we will never know! Anyone who suggests otherwise, is merely speculating!
Not necessarily. You assume that each injury is exactly the same, and therefore comparable. Lorenzo crashed whilst overriding the bike, and trying to produce results that his skillset was not capable of producing (at the time) and by trying to match Rossi. Rossi crashed after his tyres cooled in Free Practice, as a consequence of trying to find clear track. It was a bit of a freak incident, whereas Jorge's ambition outweighed his talent, as Casey would say.
Mental Anarchist' timestamp='1312551496' post='289709 said:
I understand that. I never stated otherwise. Again, you are imagining things. Try to find a quote where I stated this. Here's a hint: you won't.
Mental Anarchist' timestamp='1312551496' post='289709 said:
Evidence, please.
Mental Anarchist' timestamp='1312551496' post='289709 said:
It is a fact that Valentino was asked by Yamaha to almost half his salary, due to 'financial constraints'. It is also a fact that Lorenzo's salary was increased by almost the same amount that Rossi's salary was reduced. Do you feel this is insignificant?
Jorge is an excellent rider with astonishing talent. But we must be honest in our statements and reasoning.
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
lorenzo was on different(some might say inferior) rubber than rossi in his rookie season.
concerning lorenzos rookie crahes and rossis mugello crash....i must admit i didn't see it that way before...
lorenzo crashed while being young and hungry, not accepting to play second fiddle,even on inferior machinery challenging the very best right from the start.
rossis crash looks mighty stupid compared to that
let it go
concerning lorenzos rookie crahes and rossis mugello crash....i must admit i didn't see it that way before...
lorenzo crashed while being young and hungry, not accepting to play second fiddle,even on inferior machinery challenging the very best right from the start.
rossis crash looks mighty stupid compared to that
anyone who doesn't like Rossi is someone who doesn't like success. every year, isn't the goal to win the WC? or is the goal to be liked by other riders the most or be the most determined rider, etc? I'd say it's to win the WC. well, he's done that 7 times in the top class while failing 4 times. whatever it took to get there, he did it. he succeeded! plain and simple. guess it must suck for fans of the other riders who fail more often than succeed. sure, Rossi will fail to win this year, but people hating on him for being a winner for so long is a bit ridiculous, IMO.
It is hard to agree that Rossi and Pedrosa with such a small amount of time on the tyres in 2008, were a major factor in the design of the control tyres. Or that they engineered Michelin's demise.
From what I remember of it, both Bridgestone and Michelin were against a control tyre, and Bridgestone's philosophy of 'endurance' over 'feel' which they surprised the world with in 2007,
just happened to work very well with the newly created electro bikes with the technical wizardry compensating for the flaws in the rubber, lets face it, without serious traction control, this rubber would be absolutely unrideable.
I believe Michelin actually created the control tyre situation by not becoming competitive across the entire 2007-08 seasons due to their corporate situation at the time, I believe they had the expertise and the passion to
start hammering Bridgestone once again, but were poorly managed and once their two flagship riders jumped ship they lost it. It would have been great to see them at least apply for the Sole Tyre supplier tender as it potentially
would have made for an interesting decision for Dorna, personally I think that they would have supplied a tyre which would have created better racing than bridgestones current woeful and unchanged efforts, they just needed time to adapt to the electronics and
supply regulations.
I believe it was Talpa who pointed out the criticism from a lot of the teams on this years supply being much different to last, I thought the control rubber has suppose to be unchanged since 2009? Anyone got any clarification on this? Whilst the Bridgestone
conspiracy theory is as ridiculous as many of the Rossi conspiracy's out there, I have also read where several major teams have openly criticized Bridgestone heavily this season, which is unusual. I think its more a case of Bridgestone
Dropping the ball in the manufacture to keep costs down. Especially in relation to what they would spend if they had competition.
I'm quite certain that the Control rubber costs the teams a lot more money. After reading about Yamaha's trials with having to revert back to the 2010 chassis in the factory team and of course Ducati having to reinvent everything
there is a lot of proof to back up this theory. Yamaha's fortune reversal after this was nothing short of extraordinary, at Le mans Lorenzo was beaten well by a factory Ducati, this has been impossible to even conceive since the chassis revision. Spies was
nowhere and then a race winner at Assen.
You want rumors? I'll start me some right here:
1. Casey Stoner refuses to go to Motegi, no matter what the FIM report says. This raises Honda's ire, and they sack him at the end of the season for gross insubordination.
2. With a sudden vacancy to fill, there is a rapprochement between Honda and Valentino Rossi. HRC immediately offer Rossi Stoner's now vacant seat, and Rossi gladly accepts, especially having seen the terrifying pace the Honda 1000 sets at the Brno test.
3. With a return to Ducati his last resort (Suzuki, after all, is completely unthinkable), Stoner makes some inquiries at Yamaha. Sensing an opportunity, Lin Jarvis snaps Stoner up at a bargain price. This provides two benefits - it allows Yamaha to retain the #1 plate (Stoner having wrapped up the title at Phillip Island), and restores the two-alien status which Yamaha previously had. Lorenzo is happy enough to accept the situation, as it gives him the chance to prove that he lost to Stoner because of the Honda, not because of his talent. Having two of the four aliens also improves Yamaha's bargaining power, and they finally secure a title sponsor, saving them from having to pull the plug on MotoGP.
4. Ben Spies is offered "the Dovizioso option."
5. With an unfilled (and much-feared) vacancy at Ducati, Bologna goes shopping for the Next Big Thing, and lines up Mr Big Hair himself to take Rossi's place. Simoncelli is happy to take the Marlboro Money, having burned his bridges with HRC by destroying a lot of expensive factory equipment and still not setting foot on the podium. Simoncelli's 2012 looks a little bit like the first half of 2010 for Stoner, looking competitive but crashing out. The bike continues to suck. Nicky Hayden finishes as top Marlboro Ducati rider for the 2nd year running.
I am making all this up, but it is still within the realms of the possible. Will it happen? Probably not. Should it happen? .... yeah!
1. Casey Stoner refuses to go to Motegi, no matter what the FIM report says. This raises Honda's ire, and they sack him at the end of the season for gross insubordination.
2. With a sudden vacancy to fill, there is a rapprochement between Honda and Valentino Rossi. HRC immediately offer Rossi Stoner's now vacant seat, and Rossi gladly accepts, especially having seen the terrifying pace the Honda 1000 sets at the Brno test.
3. With a return to Ducati his last resort (Suzuki, after all, is completely unthinkable), Stoner makes some inquiries at Yamaha. Sensing an opportunity, Lin Jarvis snaps Stoner up at a bargain price. This provides two benefits - it allows Yamaha to retain the #1 plate (Stoner having wrapped up the title at Phillip Island), and restores the two-alien status which Yamaha previously had. Lorenzo is happy enough to accept the situation, as it gives him the chance to prove that he lost to Stoner because of the Honda, not because of his talent. Having two of the four aliens also improves Yamaha's bargaining power, and they finally secure a title sponsor, saving them from having to pull the plug on MotoGP.
4. Ben Spies is offered "the Dovizioso option."
5. With an unfilled (and much-feared) vacancy at Ducati, Bologna goes shopping for the Next Big Thing, and lines up Mr Big Hair himself to take Rossi's place. Simoncelli is happy to take the Marlboro Money, having burned his bridges with HRC by destroying a lot of expensive factory equipment and still not setting foot on the podium. Simoncelli's 2012 looks a little bit like the first half of 2010 for Stoner, looking competitive but crashing out. The bike continues to suck. Nicky Hayden finishes as top Marlboro Ducati rider for the 2nd year running.
I am making all this up, but it is still within the realms of the possible. Will it happen? Probably not. Should it happen? .... yeah!
Sorry, I meant, I liked this rumor so much I posted it three times, and got all asynchronous on your ......
I don't think the first two are impossible, particularly since the guys that were in dispute with rossi are gone, and honda made noises about being happy to sign rossi as well as stoner in 2009.
I think stoner and lorenzo either both go to motegi or both don't go though since jorge is driving the dissent at least as much as stoner, so I don't know how that will impact on the further aspects of your scenario. Yamaha have never shown any interest in stoner, and he is less appealing from a marketing viewpoint than spies, so given that they have jorge I don't know how much they would want casey.
