Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
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Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
If the class were to stay 800cc next year imo its very likely Rossi would end up on a Honda. But with the change back to 990, and new tires I'm not so sure. There's still a reasonable chance Ducati could pull off another 07. Rossi says he likes the GP12. The telling factor will be when we see comparative times for next years bikes. If Rossi is still slow, I bet he'll jump ship.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Joined Jun 2006
2K Posts | 20+
south wales UK
if this was true then i wouldnt if he did want to leave. like i said they never listen when stoner was there and if ducati are going to continue with there ignorance then vale should also leave.
stoner got out at the right time, well actually maybe he spent 1 season to much with them.
if there not going to atleast try a fresh design then they deserve to be at midpack.
stoner got out at the right time, well actually maybe he spent 1 season to much with them.
if there not going to atleast try a fresh design then they deserve to be at midpack.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
So, what is your take on this?
I suspect that there may be contractural reasons why this can,t happen, but if not, then can Dorna allow it to happen because Ducati may throw in the towel and therefore reduce the field to a negligible number of bikes and render motogp fatally wounded. Then again, the sport would love to have Rossi back near the front
. I suspect that the new generation (Stoner, Lorenzo, Pedrosa) offer enough to the sport that Rossi is no longer an essential ingedient (desirable, but not essential). I have little doubt that Rossi is looking at greener pastures, but doubt that he would be offered much in the way of income. Putting it bluntly, both Yamaha and Honda have riders at least his equal, and don,t need him any more, much as Rossi desperately needs them. I really don,t see Stoner objecting to Rossi as long as he does not receive favourable treatment. That has always been Stoners way. As long as Ducati are not miffed enough to quit, then I suppose it doesn,t matter either way. There is no doubt, though that such a departure by Rossi would reek of failure and further tarnish his legacy.
There once was a tyre company called Michelin....................new rule spec Honda
Simo dumps the Honda a lot... imagine him on the Duc. Not sure if Ducati could afford the repair bills.
Not sure Simoncelli would go to Ducati, unless there was no other option. Huge risk for anyone to go to Ducati, but also a huge opportunity if an unproven guy can make the bike competative (after Rossi / JB couldn't).
I will feel sorry for Ducati if Rossi bails early, and you have to wonder where this would leave Molboro sponsorship, and the Ducati MotoGP program.
I think Rossi will be on a completely redesigned Ducati next year, with aluminium frame and carbon fibre swingarm, and I think the bike will be more competative.
Rossi has come out and said that the GP12 with the full engine is not able to beat Honda's 800cc times and claimed that the full GP12 is not enough for next year.
What is an unknown in these claims is the capacity of the engine. It was rumoured that Ducati were looking at a 900-930cc engine.
Looking at what Ducati need to do for next year it would appear to be a huge mountain that needs to be conquered.
First they need to develop a new chassis with no history or data. Getting this right first time would be a long shot and there is little opportunity to test it properly and then the consideration of can Ducati keep rolling out new versions quickly enough to allow a fast development prior to the start of season 2012?
The next big question mark is will Ducati have enough engine to counter Honda and Yamaha who have most likely gone for the full 1000cc capacity allowed under the rules? What if Rossi, having already ridden the engine, knows that it is not enough engine despite having a better chassis, if Ducati got lucky and nailed the new design out of the box. In 2007 he had a better chassis but less engine and he could not compete.
Finally, it appears that Honda have nailed the 2012 bike first time out. Reports were that Stoner was significantly faster than Honda 800cc times. If Stoner wins the championship this year his motivation and confidence will be significantly boosted. Lorenzo is already mounting a hugely respectful defence of his title and will be hugely motivated to not let Stoner get away from him in WC stats and will be hard to beat in 2013 especially if Yamaha produce a great bike. Pedrosa will know that Marquez is coming and holding a Repsol seat against a 2x WC and the next Spanish Midget will be nigh on impossible without a MotoGP WC. 2012 will be his last shot.
All this does not paint a good picture for Rossi. Ii is pretty hard to make 'check mate' when you are playing with just Pawns so it will be interesting to see if he can get a Pawn into the end zone and claim back a Queen to take on all the obstacles that are in his way. If anyone can it is Rossi but personally I think the game is lost and a slow death or conceding are Rossi's only moves.
What is an unknown in these claims is the capacity of the engine. It was rumoured that Ducati were looking at a 900-930cc engine.
Looking at what Ducati need to do for next year it would appear to be a huge mountain that needs to be conquered.
First they need to develop a new chassis with no history or data. Getting this right first time would be a long shot and there is little opportunity to test it properly and then the consideration of can Ducati keep rolling out new versions quickly enough to allow a fast development prior to the start of season 2012?
The next big question mark is will Ducati have enough engine to counter Honda and Yamaha who have most likely gone for the full 1000cc capacity allowed under the rules? What if Rossi, having already ridden the engine, knows that it is not enough engine despite having a better chassis, if Ducati got lucky and nailed the new design out of the box. In 2007 he had a better chassis but less engine and he could not compete.
Finally, it appears that Honda have nailed the 2012 bike first time out. Reports were that Stoner was significantly faster than Honda 800cc times. If Stoner wins the championship this year his motivation and confidence will be significantly boosted. Lorenzo is already mounting a hugely respectful defence of his title and will be hugely motivated to not let Stoner get away from him in WC stats and will be hard to beat in 2013 especially if Yamaha produce a great bike. Pedrosa will know that Marquez is coming and holding a Repsol seat against a 2x WC and the next Spanish Midget will be nigh on impossible without a MotoGP WC. 2012 will be his last shot.
All this does not paint a good picture for Rossi. Ii is pretty hard to make 'check mate' when you are playing with just Pawns so it will be interesting to see if he can get a Pawn into the end zone and claim back a Queen to take on all the obstacles that are in his way. If anyone can it is Rossi but personally I think the game is lost and a slow death or conceding are Rossi's only moves.
It's fascinating that people think that Rossi is finished...
Basically, Rossi had these guys covered until he injured his shoulder, then leg. The Ducati does not seem to be in a great moment, so everyone concludes Rossi is finished. It's true, this is probably the lowest point of his career, but I think those who claim that his time is up, have a very short memory...The guy had almost completely dominated pre-season testing and only was a tad slower than Stoner at Qatar (Stoner/Ducati's most successful track).
I would love to see what Rossi would do against Stoner on the same bike. I'm not sure he would beat Stoner, but I'm not sure he'd lose either. I guess I just can't write a guy like Rossi off as easily as some on this board.
Basically, Rossi had these guys covered until he injured his shoulder, then leg. The Ducati does not seem to be in a great moment, so everyone concludes Rossi is finished. It's true, this is probably the lowest point of his career, but I think those who claim that his time is up, have a very short memory...The guy had almost completely dominated pre-season testing and only was a tad slower than Stoner at Qatar (Stoner/Ducati's most successful track).
I would love to see what Rossi would do against Stoner on the same bike. I'm not sure he would beat Stoner, but I'm not sure he'd lose either. I guess I just can't write a guy like Rossi off as easily as some on this board.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
Actually no, it wouldn't matter, as Rossi would no doubt finish the race. Stoner was fast on it sure, but his most recent time on the Ducati was very inconsistent, the bike has a limit which is behind Honda and Yamaha significantly, Stoner found it and went over it more often than not.
Rossi has found it and is just staying on to finish mid-pack. And as some other members have pointed out at some circuits Rossi has been just as fast.
Age is no doubt a factor when considering these things, Rossi has nearly ten years on these guys and I'm sure he wouldn't want to be going out a loser. The problem with staying at Ducati right now for Rossi is trust.
After the end of season test last year, Rossi was told how the bike would be improved and shown how it would become consistently competitive. No doubt this has also been said with each update throughout the season.
Up to this point there has been no improvement, at all. Making it very difficult to trust in the engineers to deliver on feedback (no doubt why Stoner left). I have recently read where Honda and Yamaha have come out and said that Ducati have
not reacted well to the calls for improvements in the machine from the team. There may be some good things on the way for 2012, but I'm sure it would be hard to believe this will change anything in Rossi's mind.
Until they change some of the ridiculous regs, then it will be ever-increasingly difficult for a smaller company to compete in this series, especially when the chief competition is making the rules.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
I have my doubts on this. If it wouldnt matter, then why didnt Stoner get a Yamaha factory ride for 07 as Rossi's teammate? Thats what Stoner wanted. Only now people are wanting to see them on the same bike, but we were robbed of that in 07 by Rossi.
Therefore the only comparison we have is on the Ducati.
Rossi vs Stoner results/consistency:
Stoner 2010 results were - dnf, 5th, dnf, 4th, 5th, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd.
Rossi 2011 results are ---- 7th, 5th, 5th, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 4th, 6th, 9th, 6th.
Stoner looks consistent to me, 5 podiums in a row. Rossi has had one race crash that was luckily not a dnf. Stoner had two race crashes. Not much difference.
I think Valencia testing was the most direct comparison of the two we have seen to date. Stoner jumped off, next day Rossi jumped on. Same track conditions, same bike. The shoulder injury was a problem but it might not affect outright lap pace, its more a problem in terms of endurance over a lot of laps.
At the end of 2010 I was hoping Stoner would go well on the Honda but in all honesty I thought Rossi was going to top all time sheets in testing on the Duc, while Stoner was going to be slowest of the Repsol Hondas, or at least no match for Pedro, on a bike developed specifically for Pedro. Instead I would say Stoner is capable of going quicker than Pedro.
Against Rossi on the same bike? Maybe we'll never know?
After 2008 I would never write off Rossi, and after 2007 I wouldnt write off Ducati either. Both can pull a rabit out of a hat.
Don't be ridiculous, stoner didn't go over the limit more often than not. That suggests he crashed more than 50% of the time, which isn't true. the fact is that Rossi will not be able to achieve anywhere near what Stoner did last year, despite Casey's crashes and the 3 significant updates Rossi has had (which Casey never got).
Also why should Ducati trust Rossi to be a top rider if they did have the right bike, they know damn well that Casey is better and some of them must still wonder how their bike would do with the right guy riding it.
Stoner and Rossi on the same bike, a few years ago i might expect Rossi to come in 1st, but now i have little doubt what would happen. Put Lorenzo in there too and i think Rossi would be 3rd
You may say that you want to see Rossi on the same bike as Stoner but do you want to see the results? Rossi was on the same bike as Lorenzo and Lorenzo beat him fair and square. Stoner is at least equal to Lorenzo and is arguably faster.
Rossi clearly would not want to be on the same bike as Stoner. My short memory clearly remembers the ultimatum Rossi gave to Yamaha when threaten by a talented rider in form. Rossi has never wanted to have a fast or faster team mate on equal machinery.
Rossi is past the peak of his career. His career has involved manipulations of the manufacturers he has worked for and many doors are closed. The competition are in their prime and are clearly not intimidated by nor are they awestruck by Rossi and due to the high bench mark Rossi created they have risen to heights that Rossi's former competitors never reached. Rossi has not lost his talent but unfortunately for him he is lying in the bed that he made and that bed has limited options at a time that he needs ALL the options if he is to compete against the new order at the front of MotoGP. It is for these reasons that in my opinion Rossi will not hold up a WC trophy again.
I am sure that Rossi made a few promises to Ducati as well. The 15million euro contract was not one sided and much as I agree that the Ducati is not a good bike it would appear that Rossi and JB have failed to provide the feedback that is needed to fix it. I am quite certain that the contract does not say "we will help you make an aluminium twin spar MotoGP chassis". Rossi and JB both implied that they would be able to make the bike rideable and would be able to win on it. They also implied that it was Stoner who was crashing the bike and when he was running in positions higher up the grid then Rossi is currently running he simply wasn't trying.
I think it is a stretch for everyone to be laying the blame solely on Ducati's shoulders and suggested that it is Ducati alone that has failed to deliver.
I will add that the Rossi Fan's language last year in the lead up to and after the announcement that Rossi was going to Ducati was that he would fix the Ducati easily and quickly and Ducati's problem was Stoner and his inability to do the same. Your comments (not that I suggest that you were one of those fans claiming such) highlight how that language has changed significantly.
I don't see how anyone with a rational mind can consider Lorenzo to be superior to Rossi, simply because he finished in front of Valentino in the points in 2010 after Vale broke his leg in half, and missed three races (and even when he returned, was riding injured!).
I'm not saying Valentino would or wouldn't have beaten him (we'll never know) if he hadn't broken his leg (or even injured his shoulder), but to claim that Lorenzo's superiority was proven due to last season is quite illogical. Especially when we view it in the context of the previous two seasons, where Vale consistently and clearly was better than Lorenzo.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. 'Clearly'? WRT Lorenzo, Rossi was disappointed that he took a pay cut when Yamaha asked him to, then all of that money went to Jorge. I don't think he fears any rider - and that goes for all of the top riders in this game. All of these top riders have an intense belief in themselves; they wouldn't be where they are if they didn't.
The source is quite reputable, a certain Marco Melandri...Let's not be too dismissive - unless you have information that we don't?
With this I entirely agree. Oddly not many rossi fans have agreed with me as I have argued for several years the unlikelihood of ducati having an unprecedented bike advantage for one let alone several years as the explanation for quite a large number of race victories by a certain ex-ducati rider.
Stoner showed himself capable of riding within the bike's limits for several races last year after his early season dnfs, and was roundly criticised for riding conservatively/"not pushing hard enough" not least by one v.rossi whilst still bringing the bike home in higher placings than valentino is managing currently.
I would really like to see valentino back at the front (or as high as second anyway) on a ducati or otherwise, but the latter would quite likely be at the price of ducati's demise, and probably leave 5 or 6 hondas and yamahas against a bunch of crt bikes, possibly not too different than the current situation in reality I guess anyway.
I am not a sufficiently blind stoner fan to think that offending stoner would be much of a consideration for anyone if this speculation has any basis in reality which is doubtful given kropotkin's seeming scepticism. As to how authoritative marco melandri is in this matter, I don't know how close he is to valentino but he certainly has no reason to love ducati.
The story on the website claims that Marco Melandri is the source. We only have the website's word that Melandri actually said any of these things.
