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Fantastic post. Lets face it, this debate ONLY exists because weak minded individuals are puppeting Rossi"s claim that Marquez integrity is dubious. Logical reasoning by any of us, even admitted explinations by Marc, or the reality of road racing is not the point of contention here. JP, Mike, Bird, we should know this, the debate is only about Marc's integrity, and we're not going to convince anybody that Marc was conducting himself in good faith to anyone who thinks otherwise. This is the crux of the discussion. And lets be clear, this point comes singularity from Rossi's mind.


The only other time I remember a person ever questioning a rider not willing to make a pass was Jeremy Burgess. He accused Casey Stoner's fortitude and unwillingness to attempt a pass on Rossi. I called him on it, and let him know he was full of ..... Face to face, at the Indy paddock, and in no uncertain terms. He didn't get the message at the time, and looked at me incredulously, with the facial impression that said, who the .... is this guy who would question me. Well, he later learned the message of my questioning. Then was unceremoniously thrown under the bus by the guy he thought was so superior to Stoner.

Seriously? You, a complete stranger, got in JB's face and expected him to give you a thoughtful, considered answer to that?
You bumped into one of the greats of the paddock, had an opportunity for dialogue...and *that* was all you could think to ask him about??
 
Seriously? You, a complete stranger, got in JB's face and expected him to give you a thoughtful, considered answer to that?
You bumped into one of the greats of the paddock, had an opportunity for dialogue...and *that* was all you could think to ask him about??
As usual u assume a lot. Were you there? Perhaps you can refresh my memory of our entire conversation. Maybe you can BJC it.
 
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Was there more to it ? Something about the evil Moooooslems? How hayden would've been a 4 time race winner had he had another year on a factory bike?
 
As usual u assume a lot. Were you there? Perhaps you can refresh my memory of our entire conversation. Maybe you can BJC it.

Your tale.
But since you raised it: what else was discussed?
Share it with us.
 
2013 and 2014 presumably constitute 2 of the 4 years when passing did occur, unless Oxley's whole contention is fictitious. I think 2013 could easily have been added to the 5 races with no passing had this been Jorge's wish; if you recall Jorge was desperately trying to get MM to race and hence have the potential to make a mistake, but MM wouldn't play and Rossi was unwilling or unable to compete with MM either and was content to stay 4th, and I am sure Jorge could have won flag to flag that year if that would have won him the championship.

MM could pass anyone any time in 2014; he won 10 races or so in a row. Assuming he could do the same this year on this year's bike against this year's opposition led to him crashing out of 5 races (Rossi crashed him out of a 6th obviously) putting him out of contention for this year's title and led to a changed approach in the latter half of the season.


The fact that 2013 and 2014 were years when passing occurred is significant in itself. More so because if you watch the videos it's Marquez who is doing the passing.
So we have a track where it is historically difficult to pass, a rider who quite commonly wins flag to flag who had the fastest qualifying time for and fastest lap of the race, and a rider who finished 2nd who had been admonished for racing championship contenders too hard. Explanations other than a conspiracy theory exist, although as Oxley says only MM will really know if he could have passed easily; even he might be wrong as he wouldn't know what Jorge's capability was.


I would contend rather that that's one interpretation - but to me - a more plausible explanation is that MM is simply a fierce contender who tried (unsuccessfully in the beginning of the season) to ride around the unwelcome "improvements" Honda visited on the 2015 iteration of the Honda.

While I am not a "fan" of MM - I don't consider myself of the hater ilk that have taken root here in PS. They remind me too much of the same ones who were so spiteful towards Stoner whenever he crashed. I got so sick of everybody with their lame-... theories and wise-cracks about why Stoner sometimes crashed for no apparent reason. IHO - there are some here who are so pleased that the Great Satan Rossi has been beaten that they simply cannot abide the mere possibility that Lorenzo's championship hinged on the spiteful acts perpetrated by Marquez.

Several folks keep saying how I "don't understand" Oxley's statement. I'm struggling to find a way to align it with the reality that's there for all to see in the videos showing MM passing Lorenzo at Valencia multiple times in the two previous seasons. Not one person has offered to explain why those videos show clear as day refutation of Oxley's statement. The naysayers completely ignore the videos, because there's no way to explain them away. The fact that they cannot disprove irrefutable evidence that passing is patently possible at Valencia is driving them mad; to the point that they are fuming and insulting me, whereas, I'm calmly making my point and not losing my temper. Bullying and insulting me doesn't make their case any stronger.

For the record; I'm fine with Lorenzo winning the championship. He was undoubtedly the better rider this year. It's a shame he had the issues with the helmet and whatever other thing it was that cost him those two races. Minus those two incidents his winning of the championship would be unquestionable.
 
I agree with you. In fact my initial gut instinct was something fishy going on ala is Marquez deliberately sitting behind Lorenzo not attempting to pass.

This is the nasty seed Rossi has implanted. Take Rossi's accusations away was there anything suspicious about Valencia? Not enough passes for the lead. Nope, sorry this is not admissible evidence in the court of motogp racing. In fact no passes for the lead can be proved to be the norm in a race won by Lorenzo. We conclude, to pass Lorenzo once he has seized the lead is a difficult task.

But now we must include into evidence that Rossi made accusations prior to Valencia. So there are two possibilities. Marquez went into the race a)determined to gift the win to Lorenzo, or b) Marquez went into the race to win. Are you saying you are sure it was a)? I find that surprising and totally out of character. I'm not a big Marquez fan but I would most definitely say he is one uncompromising person who I have yet to see display any particular concern for the achievement or even safety of others. Say rather than Lorenzo it was Marquez in the lead at Valencia. Do you think he would have deliberately pulled over to let Lorenzo past?

Therefore I am completely comfortable it was b), but with one most important consideration. Once Lorenzo was in front, and even though it was obvious Marquez was able to run a similar pace, I am of the opinion the one thing Marquez would have want to avoid under all circumstances would be to make a risky move taking out Lorenzo, thus gifting the title to Rossi. If that's how he raced Valencia, I am completely in agreement with him and actually applaud the young man for being able to resist all the pressure and ........ of previous weeks and simply ride a sensible race. If he keeps this attitude going I think there are plenty of championships coming up for him in the future.


I'm not one of the Custard Crowd. Never have been. Rossi's accusations have no bearing on my belief. It's based on human nature. Rossi insulted this young kid who for years idolized him and then made baseless accusations at PI. MM was undoubtedly upset and felt betrayed and used - which is motive enough for revenge. These riders are high-strung and narcissistic, so with no championship to defend, what would stop MM from ....... with Rossi? Whether Rossi deserved it is immaterial.
 
No, he isn't talking about that.

YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT.

Stop projecting your idiotic position on a writer who said nothing of the sort by trying to co-opt a clear statement into supporting your own .........

1 12 Australia Troy Bayliss Ducati 30 46:55.415 2 25
2 65 Italy Loris Capirossi Ducati 30 +1.319 3 20

That was 2006 when Bayliss led flag to flag, and there is no gap of 8 seconds, so guess what, you're wrong once again.

Instead of doubling down on an already indefensible and moronic position, you'd be better off just admitting you had no idea what Oxley said. You're doing the same ........ you always do; get proven wrong, then start trying to move your position by pretending you were misunderstood, and that you really meant this instead of that.

It's not Oxley's statement that I don't understand. What I don't comprehend is how you or anyone can maintain this as being absolute proof of something that is clearly refuted in the two videos. My position remains rock solid and has not changed in any way.

Races from 9 years ago by Bayliss and Capirossi have no bearing at all on this discussion. You're just clouding the issue. Since I never discussed them or in any way referenced them, how on earth can I be wrong about them?
 
Several folks keep saying how I "don't understand" Oxley's statement. I'm struggling to find a way to align it with the reality that's there for all to see in the videos showing MM passing Lorenzo at Valencia multiple times in the two previous seasons. Not one person has offered to explain why those videos show clear as day refutation of Oxley's statement. The naysayers completely ignore the videos, because there's no way to explain them away. The fact that they cannot disprove irrefutable evidence that passing is patently possible at Valencia is driving them mad; to the point that they are fuming and insulting me, whereas, I'm calmly making my point and not losing my temper. Bullying and insulting me doesn't make their case any stronger.

Yes, good thing no one was arguing that passing is impossible you dolt. So there goes another argument of yours down in flames.

Let's focus on the heart of the matter.

"At five of the last nine dry-weather MotoGP races at the track there wasn't a single overtaking manoeuvre at the front. Not one."

"At five of the last nine dry-weather MotoGP races at the track there wasn't a single overtaking manoeuvre at the front. Not one."

"At five of the last nine dry-weather MotoGP races at the track there wasn't a single overtaking manoeuvre at the front. Not one."


Dry-weather race constitutes a race where the track surface is dry.

You follow me?

Now what that statement means is that...

Of the last 9 dry-weather races...

4 of the races had an overtaking maneuver at the front.

That gives us the following equation: 9-4 = 5

We are now left with 5 races.

Those 5 races, had zero overtaking moves at the front.

Let me restate that again...

9 minus 4 equals what?

Keshav? Keshav?

That's right, 5. Or broken down separately in vertical lines where each vertical line is representative of the number one, it would look like this: | | | | |

Oh also, perhaps you are thinking Oxley meant there were no overtaking maneuvers in the last 5 races at Valencia. Let me also state, that is not what he is saying. He is taking the cumulative number of dry-weather Valencia races, and then looking at how many did have overtaking at the front (4 races) and how many did not have overtaking at the front (5).
 
Truth. It really is fascinating this point has to be made on this forum, where supposedly there are knowledgable people who understand motorcycle road racing. Passing Bautista who was 2 second a lap slower was one thing, passing Lorenzo, who won his races this year exactly like this, was quite another! Hey look, Rossi passed a bunch of slow guys, therefore Valencia has a big passing lane. How dumb do you have to be to make this conclusion? None of them were going to fight back anyway, Rossi made sure that wouldn't happened with his epic whine and tongue lashings.

About the unique thin race line at Valencia: It doesn't mean people can't pass, it means that passing a guy for the lead, who is generally the fastest guy on the track is a special proposition! Hence why Oxley made a point of saying for the LEAD! Did he say, hey, you can't pass at Valencia for 5th place? I'm laughing thinking how this razor thin line isn't being understood here. In order for Marc to have attempted a pass on Lorenzo, who was practically at the limit, would have required Marquez to go off the race line. Why is this true? Because Lorenzo was occupying that ideal race line, and he wasn't going to move out of the way. So the best strategy for Marc was to be on his ..., push him to the limit, then if a mistake happened (that means going off the race line) then Marquez was there to make up the space! What does that mean in terms of racing? This means the rider then loses time when attempting a pass, because to go off the race line isn't ideal, the consequence is to lose time. So to gain the position, there has to be time made up somehow. Its simple mechanics. Therefore an extra risk must be taken to make up this time as a consequence of going off the ideal race line, in this case a very small narrow space. Is this risk possible, reasonable (and given the pace of the guy in front of you) worth the extraordinary action? This is why pointing out LAP TIME, as has been done on this thread means .... all!!! (Oh, I know the people pointing out Pedro and Marc's lap time won't understand this point.) This means the rider behind needs something to compensate for going off the ideal line. Either a better drive out of the corner or brake deeper into the corner, or just blow the braking marker and punt the rider, like Rossi did at Jerez 05. Lorenzo had them both covered. In fact this absurd idea that because Pedrosa had greater pace and riding the SAME equipment to then draw the conclusion-- therefore Marquez failed to attempt a pass, is mind boggling when you consider the observable fact that Pedrosa wasn't even able to pass his teammate. What happened when Pedrosa tried a pass? The answer is: Pedrosa, with his better pace still had to do something to gain the position, the simple mechanics of the action caused him to go wide. WHY? Because that was the consequence of trying to make up time and the space, the consequence was to go wide, that is how hard it is to pass when the guy in front of you is riding within similar pace combined with a THIN RACE LINE. Marquez then occupied that space, because again, Marquez was running a similar pace, at least fast enough to capitalize on Pedrosa going off the ideal line. WHY? WHY?

WHY?!!! Because that is the characteristic and consequence of a fine race line. Pedrosa was not able to execute a pass on Marquez! Yet Pedrosa had slightly greater pace, these are facts! So how in the sane world anybody would say Marquez was sandbagging by not passing Lorenzo, who had better drive is pure stupidity and or a failure to appreciate the pace at which Lorenzo was going. You see what is happening is that people are comparing a pass at other tracks or a pass in other conditions, for lower positions, not considering the stakes that were on the table either. If the question is, could have Marc made a bonsai lunge to attempt a pass, the answer is yes. The thing is people assume this would have stuck. Add to this, Marc was under orders, thanks to ..... ... Rossi and his Race Direction friends, not to do something stupid. And add to that, he had learned before Rossi's tainted of people's minds, that he needed to be more measure, as he admitted at the award show (that 'graceless' Rossi snubbed). That is the .... these fools can't get into their head. What they are thinking as a failure for Marc to attempt a typical Marquez pass was no longer on the table. Again, thanks to ..... ... Rossi who put a chilling effect on spirited racing, because he no longer like it. They expected Marquez to bonsai like he did at Jerez. Except imagine if he had done that to Rossi? Oh lord, the internet would have broken, and a petition to lynch Marquez wouldn't have been needed, they would have invaded the track and clubbed him to death on the spot! Could Marquez have done that? Yes, anybody can. Just blow the braking marker. Is that a clean pass attempt? No. I seriously don't think the racing line is being understood here and what that means for the mechanics of a pass. Now add to this Lorenzo's pace. To say Pedrosa or Marquez passing Lorenzo would have been a given is absurd to the nth degree. Not only was Pedrosa not able to pass his own teammate on the "same" equipment, but think about what Lorenzo would have been capable of doing to preserve his championship.

I'm reminded of the movie, Morons in Space. "Morons, I'm surrounded by Morons!"

I would reply to this - but it's so larded with irrelevancies that it's like wading though quicksand.
 
It's not Oxley's statement that I don't understand. What I don't comprehend is how you or anyone can maintain this as being absolute proof of something that is clearly refuted in the two videos. My position remains rock solid and has not changed in any way.

Races from 9 years ago by Bayliss and Capirossi have no bearing at all on this discussion. You're just clouding the issue. Since I never discussed them or in any way referenced them, how on earth can I be wrong about them?

2006 actually falls into the range of dry weather races Oxley is discussing.

The last 9 dry-weather races at Valencia are as follows: 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015

The one non dry-weather race was: 2012

2012 doesn't factor in.

You're wrong again.
 
Yes, good thing no one was arguing that passing is impossible you dolt. So there goes another argument of yours down in flames.

Let's focus on the heart of the matter.

"At five of the last nine dry-weather MotoGP races at the track there wasn't a single overtaking manoeuvre at the front. Not one."

"At five of the last nine dry-weather MotoGP races at the track there wasn't a single overtaking manoeuvre at the front. Not one."

"At five of the last nine dry-weather MotoGP races at the track there wasn't a single overtaking manoeuvre at the front. Not one."


Dry-weather race constitutes a race where the track surface is dry.

You follow me?

Now what that statement means is that...

Of the last 9 dry-weather races...

4 of the races had an overtaking maneuver at the front.

That gives us the following equation: 9-4 = 5

We are now left with 5 races.

Those 5 races, had zero overtaking moves at the front.

Let me restate that again...

9 minus 4 equals what?

Keshav? Keshav?

That's right, 5. Or broken down separately in vertical lines where each vertical line is representative of the number one, it would look like this: | | | | |

Oh also, perhaps you are thinking Oxley meant there were no overtaking maneuvers in the last 5 races at Valencia. Let me also state, that is not what he is saying. He is taking the cumulative number of dry-weather Valencia races, and then looking at how many did have overtaking at the front (4 races) and how many did not have overtaking at the front (5).

Yes - so that leaves four where there were passes. So what? There was passing at Valencia during the last two seasons and that's more pertinent than races in which Marquez never participated in.
 
Yes - so that leaves four where there were passes. So what? There was passing at Valencia during the last two seasons and that's more pertinent than races in which Marquez never participated in.

There's a 55.5% chance you will not get overtaking at Valencia, which is roughly 2 to 1 odds.

MM participating or not is irrelevant. I know you think it is, but it really is not.

Past results are no guarantor of future returns, especially in racing.
 
I would reply to this - but it's so larded with irrelevancies that it's like wading though quicksand.
You have repeatedly tried to incite my reaction despite our agreement to ignore eachother. You have quoted me without any need several times since then, you are aware you can post your moronic opinions without including a quote in your post, therefore you must do this intentionally. You never kept your word then, no reason why anyone would believe you would ever start. I'm happy to destroy every thread going after you. Then you can go crying and appealing to the members and the mods that it's not you who are continually the instigator of flame wars. I am not interested any anything you say, but I'll be happy to oblige, reminding everyone what a real life slimy, backstabbing, dishonest, shameless, damaged character you posses.

You have repeatedly commandeered the PM system of the forum to send your unsolicited harassment, despite me and others stating publicly they want no contact from you.

There are members here who stood by then eventually were sucked in to the flame war, each privy to the exchanges, and each in there way stake holders. Some appealed in attempts to discontinue the flame war by trying to be impartial, here you have it again folks, you have the clear instigator and the reaction he sought. Where is MigsAngel and MickD, who so often sided with you while saying they took no sides? Will you stand up and have the balls to call Kesh out for reigniting this flame war? Or will you take the same chickenshit approach that "it takes two to tango"? There were other members who chimed in, and you know who you are, I won't call you out by name, but will you stand up?

The last three times this ignited, it was clearly traceable to Keshav's instigation, so if you do chime in, spare me the attempt at being impartial. Its here for you to see who has started it. And you can go back into the forum and see since we called truce that Keshav has in fact attempted to spark a reaction several times. Up until today I've kept my bargain.

I fully expect you Kesh to respond with some weaseling ......... You cant help yourself, you have no self control, your self esteem is so ...... that you come here for some kind of affirmation. You can't just talk racing, as you so often claimed, but feel the need to have a running flame war. You have been the number one person for this since you arrived. You are the common denominator in most .... storms, and certainly the ugliest ones that became personal. You are the forum Kancer. And as Kancers do, they always seem to come back.
 
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True in the early stages of the season. Once Marquez got a suitable chassis and Honda ironed out the electronics he wasn't crashing anymore.

Is it "plausible" that he passing Lorenzo in the final stages was outside his comfort zone? Sure. But impossible? No.

And I'm not talking conspiracy. I am simply saying he had the pace, a well-known capacity to take calulated risks after following a rider for 98% of the race, the well set up bike and the close proximity to do so.

Again... the videos bare out the fact that MM has proven he has the capacity to pass Lorenzo at Valencia and has in fact done so. Nobody who actually has watched the video can deny it.

Lorenzo did not run away from MM. MM was on his tail the entire race. I'm not saying it's beyond the realm of possibility that MM didn't feel it was worth the risk, but will say with certainty that if the championship was on the line (for him) you can bet your ... he'd have made or attempted to make a pass in those last few laps. It's his nature as a fierce competitor.

Keshav, there could also be the simple explanation that Marquez is tired of crashing in those circumstances.
 
Truth. It really is fascinating this point has to be made on this forum, where supposedly there are knowledgable people who understand motorcycle road racing. Passing Bautista who was 2 second a lap slower was one thing, passing Lorenzo, who won his races this year exactly like this, was quite another! Hey look, Rossi passed a bunch of slow guys, therefore Valencia has a big passing lane. How dumb do you have to be to make this conclusion? None of them were going to fight back anyway, Rossi made sure that wouldn't happened with his epic whine and tongue lashings.

About the unique thin race line at Valencia: It doesn't mean people can't pass, it means that passing a guy for the lead, who is generally the fastest guy on the track is a special proposition! Hence why Oxley made a point of saying for the LEAD! Did he say, hey, you can't pass at Valencia for 5th place? I'm laughing thinking how this razor thin line isn't being understood here. In order for Marc to have attempted a pass on Lorenzo, who was practically at the limit, would have required Marquez to go off the race line. Why is this true? Because Lorenzo was occupying that ideal race line, and he wasn't going to move out of the way. So the best strategy for Marc was to be on his ..., push him to the limit, then if a mistake happened (that means going off the race line) then Marquez was there to make up the space! What does that mean in terms of racing? This means the rider then loses time when attempting a pass, because to go off the race line isn't ideal, the consequence is to lose time. So to gain the position, there has to be time made up somehow. Its simple mechanics. Therefore an extra risk must be taken to make up this time as a consequence of going off the ideal race line, in this case a very small narrow space. Is this risk possible, reasonable (and given the pace of the guy in front of you) worth the extraordinary action? This is why pointing out LAP TIME, as has been done on this thread means .... all!!! (Oh, I know the people pointing out Pedro and Marc's lap time won't understand this point.) This means the rider behind needs something to compensate for going off the ideal line. Either a better drive out of the corner or brake deeper into the corner, or just blow the braking marker and punt the rider, like Rossi did at Jerez 05. Lorenzo had them both covered. In fact this absurd idea that because Pedrosa had greater pace and riding the SAME equipment to then draw the conclusion-- therefore Marquez failed to attempt a pass, is mind boggling when you consider the observable fact that Pedrosa wasn't even able to pass his teammate. What happened when Pedrosa tried a pass? The answer is: Pedrosa, with his better pace still had to do something to gain the position, the simple mechanics of the action caused him to go wide. WHY? Because that was the consequence of trying to make up time and the space, the consequence was to go wide, that is how hard it is to pass when the guy in front of you is riding within similar pace combined with a THIN RACE LINE. Marquez then occupied that space, because again, Marquez was running a similar pace, at least fast enough to capitalize on Pedrosa going off the ideal line. WHY? WHY?

WHY?!!! Because that is the characteristic and consequence of a fine race line. Pedrosa was not able to execute a pass on Marquez! Yet Pedrosa had slightly greater pace, these are facts! So how in the sane world anybody would say Marquez was sandbagging by not passing Lorenzo, who had better drive is pure stupidity and or a failure to appreciate the pace at which Lorenzo was going. You see what is happening is that people are comparing a pass at other tracks or a pass in other conditions, for lower positions, not considering the stakes that were on the table either. If the question is, could have Marc made a bonsai lunge to attempt a pass, the answer is yes. The thing is people assume this would have stuck. Add to this, Marc was under orders, thanks to ..... ... Rossi and his Race Direction friends, not to do something stupid. And add to that, he had learned before Rossi's tainted of people's minds, that he needed to be more measure, as he admitted at the award show (that 'graceless' Rossi snubbed). That is the .... these fools can't get into their head. What they are thinking as a failure for Marc to attempt a typical Marquez pass was no longer on the table. Again, thanks to ..... ... Rossi who put a chilling effect on spirited racing, because he no longer like it. They expected Marquez to bonsai like he did at Jerez. Except imagine if he had done that to Rossi? Oh lord, the internet would have broken, and a petition to lynch Marquez wouldn't have been needed, they would have invaded the track and clubbed him to death on the spot! Could Marquez have done that? Yes, anybody can. Just blow the braking marker. Is that a clean pass attempt? No. I seriously don't think the racing line is being understood here and what that means for the mechanics of a pass. Now add to this Lorenzo's pace. To say Pedrosa or Marquez passing Lorenzo would have been a given is absurd to the nth degree. Not only was Pedrosa not able to pass his own teammate on the "same" equipment, but think about what Lorenzo would have been capable of doing to preserve his championship.

I'm reminded of the movie, Morons in Space. "Morons, I'm surrounded by Morons!"

Jumkie, I have to admire your willingness to spend that much time at the keyboard to document in painstaking detail, that which should be obvious to any serious student of the craft.
 
I'm not one of the Custard Crowd. Never have been. Rossi's accusations have no bearing on my belief. It's based on human nature. Rossi insulted this young kid who for years idolized him and then made baseless accusations at PI. MM was undoubtedly upset and felt betrayed and used - which is motive enough for revenge. These riders are high-strung and narcissistic, so with no championship to defend, what would stop MM from ....... with Rossi? Whether Rossi deserved it is immaterial.

Interesting and plausible....if true.
 
Its taken me awhile to figure what might have been going on. Did the pressure of Rossi get to him, was Rossi in his head? The answer is no. The one thing Rossi would have hoped for was the pressure gets to Marquez, in his desperate need to clear his name, he pulls a dumb ... move on Lorenzo and takes him out. That is the very definition of caving to the Rossi mind game. To me that was in fact the most impressive race I have ever seen from Marquez, not in terms of his blinding speed or talent etc but I figured he would be easy to manipulate, or maybe was just plain dumb. This race for me showed the intelligence of the man and his ability to avoid the infamous Rossi mind ...., the immense pressure, even the fame and fortune. He has a bright future then imo.


Agreed Birdy.

In some ways the race (and all the BS surrounding it) looked to me almost as a coming of age style of sensible, controlled racing (of course, time will tell)
 
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2006 actually falls into the range of dry weather races Oxley is discussing.

The last 9 dry-weather races at Valencia are as follows: 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015

The one non dry-weather race was: 2012

2012 doesn't factor in.

You're wrong again.

As I said I am not sure 2013 counts either as nobody wanted to contest Jorge, who was very likely much the fastest rider anyway, and particularly not MM who didn't need to win the race to clinch the championship whom Jorge more or less forced to pass him, but still could not get MM to actually race him which was his only chance since Rossi was unable or unwilling to race MM.

If MM had the level of dominance he had in 2014 sure he could have easily passed Lorenzo even given the nature of the Valencia track. That was not how it was in 2015 though, hence his 3rd in the championship.

As Oxley said, only MM will really know how much potential pace he had, to which I would add only Jorge will know how much he had left. It seems likely to me that MM would have required something desperate to pass Jorge, and had little reason to undertake such a move. After all the whinging about Sepang where all his moves were clean imo, it would seem only a move of that nature, hopefully resulting in Jorge being taken out, would have satisfied Rossi and his partisans.
 
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I would contend rather that that's one interpretation - but to me - a more plausible explanation is that MM is simply a fierce contender who tried (unsuccessfully in the beginning of the season) to ride around the unwelcome "improvements" Honda visited on the 2015 iteration of the Honda.

While I am not a "fan" of MM - I don't consider myself of the hater ilk that have taken root here in PS. They remind me too much of the same ones who were so spiteful towards Stoner whenever he crashed. I got so sick of everybody with their lame-... theories and wise-cracks about why Stoner sometimes crashed for no apparent reason. IHO - there are some here who are so pleased that the Great Satan Rossi has been beaten that they simply cannot abide the mere possibility that Lorenzo's championship hinged on the spiteful acts perpetrated by Marquez.

Several folks keep saying how I "don't understand" Oxley's statement. I'm struggling to find a way to align it with the reality that's there for all to see in the videos showing MM passing Lorenzo at Valencia multiple times in the two previous seasons. Not one person has offered to explain why those videos show clear as day refutation of Oxley's statement. The naysayers completely ignore the videos, because there's no way to explain them away. The fact that they cannot disprove irrefutable evidence that passing is patently possible at Valencia is driving them mad; to the point that they are fuming and insulting me, whereas, I'm calmly making my point and not losing my temper. Bullying and insulting me doesn't make their case any stronger.

For the record; I'm fine with Lorenzo winning the championship. He was undoubtedly the better rider this year. It's a shame he had the issues with the helmet and whatever other thing it was that cost him those two races. Minus those two incidents his winning of the championship would be unquestionable.
Oxley didn't say passing was impossible at Valencia, just that it was difficult. Your main example of passing at Valencia was MM in 2014, when he had close to the most dominant season in history. In 2013 Jorge was desperately trying to induce MM to pass and race him, with limited success, and I am sure could have run away at the front if he had wished to do so. The burden of proof for the 2015 race is on those alleging conspiracy/race fixing, which unfortunately would seem to include you, and absolutely no such proof exists.

If Jorge had lost due to helmet problems that would have been down to him and not have detracted from a Rossi championship. I see no caveats on Jorge's eventual championship, if Rossi needed MM to beat Lorenzo in the first place that is his deficiency; all of his problems could have been answered by the simple expedient of beating Lorenzo on the last 3 races which it seems unlikely to me he could have done in any circumstances. All else is chickenshit self-justification, again imo.
 
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Migs and mick are excused. I'm the substitute teacher. Give it to me,I have thick skin and you have pics and whatnot of me so I'm basically daring you.


You are the lowest of the low jum. I taught at schools for special kids but truly have never encountered one as ........ as you.
You truly are autismus maximus. Either you're on psychosis inducing drugs or it runs in the family. Neither is an excuse
Who's the one always bringing up old ....?
The one going personal?
The one needing to slack others because wtf ever?
Go choke on a bag of dicks you ..... You're high and mighty with your schizophrenia but that doesn't excuse humiliating others poor health.
You're the poison here but project it onto others. Not buying it.
And trust me, if you hadn't the geographical convenience aspect going for you a lot less people would give a .... about you.
 

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