The Untouchables

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I would propose that MM had to at least give the illusion that he intended to pass Lorenzo so as not to be painfully obvious in his intent.

As to "both" Hondas hanging back, no-one has proposed that Dani was sandbagging. He had no motive to do so. Clearly he was trying to make a last lap pass on Lorenzo at Valencia.

Except nothing supports the idea that MM was trying to "give the illusion".

You would not do something that would potentially push the other rider into making a mistake and cost him the title if you're looking to help him out.

The lap times don't even support your assertions.
 
You mean apart from the reasonable speculation that he was quite possibly told by RD not to put any risky moves on championship contenders after all the brouhaha surrounding the Sepang race?

What is factual is what Rossi did, and admitted doing, in the Sepang race. All else is speculation, particularly what Rossi said about the PI race, which cheapened Jorge's eventual championship win and blackened MM's character, to the extent that it may blight his entire career.

My own speculation is that MM did nothing untoward at PI in winning that race, and by his own standards anyway didn't put any risky moves on either contender. He was extremely annoyed at Sepang, and decided he wouldn't be passed by Rossi, and that he would turn Rossi's time honoured tactic back on him ie immediately re- pass when passed. In his situation at Sepang he is absolutely entitled to try to beat Rossi imo, but some of his moves were probably while legal too hard given he does in my view have some obligation in the circumstance not to take out a contender with a rash move.

At Valencia given the nature of the track he would have had to put on a hard move to pass Jorge. Whether he might have been more prepared to put a hard move on Rossi is another question.

Bottom line is that after a great season Rossi had insufficient pace in the last 3 races, which happened all to be dry, after several earlier races had happened to be wet
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Agree, Rossi’s accusations are so powerful as to skew many people's perceptions of racing and worse the sense that intention and integrity is easily dispelled. Weak minds. I've repeated this often, but none of these supposed enlightened people after the Sepang press conference had any inkling that Marquez was deliberately screwing up Rossi’s championship. Yet are now convinced he did. Its simple, no accusations, no sudden enlightenment. I can understand a bunch of boppers and other weak minds being susceptible to such McCarthyism, but to hear even otherwise sound journalists claim Marquez was being a "...." at Sepang is disappointing and fascinating. Our human condition is so easily swayed by suggestion! None, absolutely none of these post-accusation Marquez-guilty verdicts came forward after PI, why? Their smoking gun is spirited CLEAN passes, their motive, ROSSI'S ACCUSATIONS. That's it. Nothing more. When pressed, the best they can come up with is: well just look at how many passes Marc put on, as if Rossi's motives are so pure in retaking him. Why can't the alternate narrative co-exist that Rossi deliberately caused an exchange to give credibility to his act of taking Marc out by fabricating JUSTIFICATION?


Therefore, lets us debate (as I'd like to see the logic behind disproving the following): Rossi is guilty of fabricating justifiable cause by deliberately creating an exchange sequence with Marquez to make it appear he was being attacked. Which also served to give credibility to his baseless accusations. Premeditated, based on his paranoia that Marquez was trying to thwart his title, and knowing he was not fast enough to beat Pedrosa nor Lorenzo, his best chance was to create a situation where he was guaranteed a 3rd place. So he TOYED with Marquez, baiting him, allowing himself to be overtaken, clearly running wide, giving Marc the space. This served to create a sense in the minds of the susceptible audience, that the world's longest block pass was JUSTIFICATION and warranted, and created a sense this was partly reasonable racing tactics. It was all clearly Rossi's plan and INTENT. It worked too, as he comfortably finished in 3rd rather than 4th, preserving his chances at a title.

The empirical evidence and observable facts as follows:

Rossi undeniably overtook Marquez aggressively over 10 times in 7 laps! Absurdity, that never happens in a "normal" race. Clearly Rossi had a dubious motive.

Rossi undeniably believed Marquez was out to get him, and so Rossi had several days to plan his mastermind manipulation and catch Marquez by surprise. Nobody, including Marquez, would ever expect such a Machiavellian tactic, to dupe not just riders on the track but his malleable audience. He certainly got this message when the masses were ready to eat Iannone's future children. So he began to plan his attack between the time from the Australian GP to Sepang, all premeditated, from the press conferences, to his lap charts, to his attack on the track to fabricate a sense of victimhood, to successfully finish on the podium.

It is an observable fact that Rossi's lap times did not change significantly, and so Rossi, the most experienced, knew that the other three of the top four were likely to beat him. He also knew from previous experience, that he could employ the same tactic he used successfully at Laguna 08, that is, disrupt the rhythm of the rider in front of him, by overtaking aggressively, and not allowing him to escape, then use a premeditated tactic to eliminate the rival, either by brake checking or in this case, pushing the rider out to an unstable surface, toying with the throttle, and positioning his machine to throw the rival off balance. It worked.

Rossi is guilty of race fixing! Guilty of intentionally fabricating a situation on the track for the purpose of eliminating rivals by means other than good faith racing. Rossi has a history of employing such mastermind tactics, which have served him well, this was another example in a long illustrious career of using such Machiavellian schemes, strategy, and ploys. The observable facts and empirical evidence lead us to this undeniable conclusion.
 
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When a plethora of things were being blamed and then backtracked on endlessly, and even when the bike was turned into a hodgepodge of 2014 and 2015 parts, there was still the same comments involved, I'd say something was different with the front tire construction from 2014 to 2015.

Mind you, with the revised bike, MM was still complaining about floating feeling in the front. I'd argue this was less a bike problem, and more an issue with tire construction, and god knows MotoGP would never have tire design altered. :rolleyes:

That's a totally reasonable bit of conjecture, as opposed to what some were advancing at the beginning of the season, that being, Marquez had for no explainable reason, become 60% less talented. Or that all of Marquez's competitors had all, as a body, become that much more competitive, to the point that he couldn't cope with it.

Again, it doesn't have to be an either/or situation. Could well have been issues with the Hondas and tire issues, the combination of which would make sorting out the bikes for the Honda riders that much more complex.
 
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What's really incredible about this, is people continue taking Rossi at face value in spite of the glaring contradictions with things he has said, or outright evidence that doesn't support any of his ridiculous assertions.

Taking Rossi at face value, and assuming everything he said was truth. Including Race Direction, which took the extraordinary position of believing the PERPETRATOR while disbelieved the victim. But furthermore, the man who even his fans and those defending his actions, while also assign guilt to Marquez, are the SAME who accepted Rossi is this genius mastermind that orchestrates mind ....... massive manipulations, and is admired for it. Consider that many accept Rossi is the master of mind games, yet have not considered that this whole thing was a massive Rossi set up. No, no, in this case Rossi's motives were pure. Even though if you scroll to impressions right after the Sepang press conference you will read people say oh this is another Rossi genius mind .... to manipulate the situation. Brilliant! Then suddenly it no longer because a mastermind manipulation but innocent Rossi being of pure motives? Contrast this to Marquez, who have been known and accused of the opposite, a man who operates in the moment, not considering his actions beforehand, yet now is this cunning, crafty, deceitful, scheming, vindictive, dubious, cheating, revengeful, mastermind? When in fact Rossi has been described in this way as all his mind ..... have been against rivals for precisely these types of reasons and methods.
 
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Taking Rossi at face value, and assuming everything he said was truth. Including Race Direction, which took the extraordinary position of believing the PERPETRATOR while disbelieved the victim. But furthermore, the man who even his fans and those defending his actions, while also assign guilt to Marquez, are the SAME who accepted Rossi is this genius mastermind that orchestrates mind ....... massive manipulations, and is admired for it. Consider that many accept Rossi is the master of mind games, yet have not considered that this whole thing was a massive Rossi set up. No, no, in this case Rossi's motives were pure. Even though if you scroll to impressions right after the Sepang press conference you will read people say oh this is another Rossi genius mind .... to manipulate the situation. Brilliant! Then suddenly it no longer because a mastermind manipulation but innocent Rossi being of pure motives? Contrast this to Marquez, who have been known and accused of the opposite, a man who operates in the moment, not considering his actions beforehand, yet now is this cunning, crafty, deceitful, scheming, vindictive, dubious, cheating, revengeful, mastermind? When in fact Rossi has been described in this way as all his mind ..... have been against rivals for precisely these types of reasons.

The only ones who ever took him at face value were the mindless zombies that have been drinking the Kool-Aid.
 
a. Except nothing supports the idea that MM was trying to "give the illusion".

b. You would not do something that would potentially push the other rider into making a mistake and cost him the title if you're looking to help him out.

c. The lap times don't even support your assertions.

a. It's just common sense to believe MM would naturally give the appearance of doing the job Honda pays him to do. Assuming he did sandbag - it's not as if he was going to be absurdly obvious about it. I mean really, when have you ever seen MM spend that much time sitting on the rear wheel of the rider in front for that many laps and never once even come close to making a pass?

b. Marquez wasn't particularly pushing Lorenzo hard. If you look at my other post - it shows that both Dani and Marquez were consistently posting quicker laptimes than Lorenzo. With Dani it was painfully clear once the tank was less full that he was eating up the gap like nobody's business. And Marquez would post faster laptimes and then whenever he got close to Lorenzo - he'd back off and basically let Lorenzo run his own race.

c. Look at the laptimes again. They do in fact support my contention.

With 9 laps to go, MM was lapping 2/10ths quicker than Lorenzo and then falling back showing clearly that he had the pace to pass Lorenzo.

With 8 laps to go Pedrosa really picked up the pace lapping 1/10 of a second quicker than Marquez.

With 7 laps to go Pedrosa closed the gap between him and MM by 8/10ths of a second.

With 2 circuits remaining Pedrosa was up close and personal lapping a full 7/10ths a second faster than Lorenzo.
 
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No the lap times don't support anything other showing a guy who was not fast enough.

Kesh for a guy who has watched motor racing for a long time, you are coming off as someone who is new to the whole thing. I've seen hundreds of races where you would see the exact same sort of thing unfold where a guy might be on the ... of another guy, but could not find that extra speed to get past the person in front of him.

It's very easy to get into a rhythm when you are chasing after another guy, and to stay behind him. This however does not translate to an overtake, or an overtake possibility.

Fernando Alonso lost the 2010 World Championship in F1 at Abu Dhabi when he was stuck behind the Renault of Vitaly Petrov for more than half the race. Much like Valencia, the Yas Marina Circuit is another one line track where overtaking is extremely difficult. F1 only ever increased overtaking there when DRS came into the sport in 2011.

You're significantly underestimating how difficult it is to pass at certain circuits, and Valencia is one of them. Being behind by 2 tenths means jack .... at a circuit like that Kesh unless you are at a pace of 4 tenths or better.
 
At the end of the day, Rossi controlled his own destiny and couldn't deliver.

We saw the right rider become world champion.

As I said, to indicate MM helped JL is to diminish his title, and exactly what Rossi wants.

It's sour grapes.

This is reality...

jl.big.jpg
 
Two different bikes but not as different as the Honda compared to the Yamaha. The general consensus (at least during the 2nd half of the season) is that the two Hondas were the weapon of choice. Yes - two different styles of riding - but both riders have two different crews working day and night to tailor the bikes to suit their individual needs.

To be clear... I'm talking about the Hondas being a better all 'round bike, and not mere top speed. The fact that top speed is not the deciding factor in many races has been discussed here so many times it should be permanently engraved in stone.

As to Dani being able to beat MM "on any given day" .... well, statistics show that simply isn't so. Other than cases where MM DNFd - nobody here has cited more than one race where Dani beat Marquez in a straight up battle. One race out more than 30 hardly constitutes "on any given day".

I think Dani being able to beat everyone on "a" given day when everything works for him is the correct way to put it rather than on "any" given day. He has done this throughout his premier class career, against all opponents including all the riders at any time dubbed "alien"during that career. In many years for whatever reason he managed it only a couple of times a year. This year we know he had health issues and underwent major somewhat experimental major arm pump surgery, missing several races earlier in the season.
 
No the lap times don't support anything other showing a guy who was not fast enough.

Kesh for a guy who has watched motor racing for a long time, you are coming off as someone who is new to the whole thing. I've seen hundreds of races where you would see the exact same sort of thing unfold where a guy might be on the ... of another guy, but could not find that extra speed to get past the person in front of him.

It's very easy to get into a rhythm when you are chasing after another guy, and to stay behind him. This however does not translate to an overtake, or an overtake possibility.

Fernando Alonso lost the 2010 World Championship in F1 at Abu Dhabi when he was stuck behind the Renault of Vitaly Petrov for more than half the race. Much like Valencia, the Yas Marina Circuit is another one line track where overtaking is extremely difficult. F1 only ever increased overtaking there when DRS came into the sport in 2011.

You're significantly underestimating how difficult it is to pass at certain circuits, and Valencia is one of them. Being behind by 2 tenths means jack .... at a circuit like that Kesh unless you are at a pace of 4 tenths or better.

If you read what I posted - Marquez was doing quicker laps at will and then falling back in order to not pass Lorenzo.

Sorry but I just can't buy the "one line track" thing. People were being passed over and over again throughout the race. I've watched enough races at Valencia to know that people get passed there all the time and nothing about Valencia has changed since previous seasons.

And I don't want to sound like the doctor with the Mensa bragging - but understand - I'm not some armchair fan. I raced Battle Of The Twins, F2, and Middle-Weight Superbike in the '80s. I also ran my own endurance team - none of which makes me "The world's greatest living authority" - but as someone who has actually raced the AMA Champion Cup Series at the AMA Nationals, it's fair to say I have pretty good insight into how races work.
 
I think Dani being able to beat everyone on "a" given day when everything works for him is the correct way to put it rather than on "any" given day. He has done this throughout his premier class career, against all opponents including all the riders at any time dubbed "alien"during that career. In many years for whatever reason he managed it only a couple of times a year. This year we know he had health issues and underwent major somewhat experimental major arm pump surgery, missing several races earlier in the season.

It's not my intention to say Dani isn't talented, but given his injuries and his issues with being so small - his results overall don't make him a serious threat to Marquez. Over the course of 54 races - Dani beat Marquez 3 times in MM's rookie season, once at Brno the following year and once in 2015; five out of 54 races.
 
It's not my intention to say Dani isn't talented, but given his injuries and his issues with being so small - his results overall don't make him a serious threat to Marquez. Over the course of 54 races - Dani beat Marquez 3 times in MM's rookie season, once at Brno the following year and once in 2015; five out of 54 races.

We seem to be talking at cross purposes here. I do not of course consider Dani to be MM's equal in general, or the equal of Jorge Lorenzo and Valentino Rossi, or Casey Stoner when he was still racing. My point is that he has had isolated race weekends throughout his career when everything clicks for him and he is faster than, and able to beat, any or all of those guys in that particular race, and by out-riding them, not attrition or whatever. Other than his rookie year and late 2012 when Stoner was out or injured most of his wins have been of that nature, but he can mostly only manage it a couple of times a year. I, along with Povol, think Sepang 2015 was one of those weekends; he was fast all weekend and got pole as well if you recall.
 
We seem to be talking at cross purposes here. I do not of course consider Dani to be MM's equal in general, or the equal of Jorge Lorenzo and Valentino Rossi, or Casey Stoner when he was still racing. My point is that he has had isolated race weekends throughout his career when everything clicks for him and he is faster than, and able to beat, any or all of those guys in that particular race, and by out-riding them, not attrition or whatever. Other than his rookie year and late 2012 when Stoner was out or injured most of his wins have been of that nature, but he can mostly only manage it a couple of times a year. I, along with Povol, think Sepang 2015 was one of those weekends; he was fast all weekend and got pole as well if you recall.

In full agreement here, Mm.
Your post makes me wonder whether the spec tyres may be detrimental to a rider of Dani's meagre mass.
I wonder how tailored for a circa 50kg rider the Michelins once were
 
We seem to be talking at cross purposes here. I do not of course consider Dani to be MM's equal in general, or the equal of Jorge Lorenzo and Valentino Rossi, or Casey Stoner when he was still racing. My point is that he has had isolated race weekends throughout his career when everything clicks for him and he is faster than, and able to beat, any or all of those guys in that particular race, and by out-riding them, not attrition or whatever. Other than his rookie year and late 2012 when Stoner was out or injured most of his wins have been of that nature, but he can mostly only manage it a couple of times a year. I, along with Povol, think Sepang 2015 was one of those weekends; he was fast all weekend and got pole as well if you recall.

Then we're in agreement. I've been asserting all along that had Marquez not screwed around sitting on Lorenzo's tail - Dani would have had the all clear to easily pass Lorenzo whose tires were mush at the end of the race and take 2nd. I thought his last 5 laps were absolutely astonishing.
 
Then we're in agreement. I've been asserting all along that had Marquez not screwed around sitting on Lorenzo's tail - Dani would have had the all clear to easily pass Lorenzo whose tires were mush at the end of the race and take 2nd. I thought his last 5 laps were absolutely astonishing.

Sure, Valencia may have been another such weekend as well as Sepang, although he is commonly dominant the whole way and does not just come on at the end;that of course may sometimes be the only way to go on the Honda particularly with the apparent combined HRC bike/tyre problems this year. He was rather good at Motegi in the wet as well which he won well ahead of MM, but not able to stay with MM and the other two, or even Iannone, at PI.
 
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Lorenzo's fastest lap of the last five was the last lap. He was controlling the race pace and when he needed it , he had it, even on spent tires
 
If you read what I posted - Marquez was doing quicker laps at will and then falling back in order to not pass Lorenzo.

Sorry but I just can't buy the "one line track" thing. People were being passed over and over again throughout the race. I've watched enough races at Valencia to know that people get passed there all the time and nothing about Valencia has changed since previous seasons.

And I don't want to sound like the doctor with the Mensa bragging - but understand - I'm not some armchair fan. I raced Battle Of The Twins, F2, and Middle-Weight Superbike in the '80s. I also ran my own endurance team - none of which makes me "The world's greatest living authority" - but as someone who has actually raced the AMA Champion Cup Series at the AMA Nationals, it's fair to say I have pretty good insight into how races work.

Well known people have already discussed that Valencia is a one-line circuit where overtaking rarely happens.

You don't have to buy into it, but everything about that circuit confirms those statements.

From Mat Oxley's piece...

a5wytyq.jpg


There's reality and then there is what you want to believe. You're free to believe whatever you'd like, and your experience racing bikes has no application to what the circuit in Valencia is like.
 
Well known people have already discussed that Valencia is a one-line circuit where overtaking rarely happens.

You don't have to buy into it, but everything about that circuit confirms those statements.

From Mat Oxley's piece...

a5wytyq.jpg


There's reality and then there is what you want to believe. You're free to believe whatever you'd like, and your experience racing bikes has no application to what the circuit in Valencia is like.
Especially when one bike is superior to the other in off corner acceleration. The highlighted quote is spot on. Even though Kesh has done some racing, he couldnt have come across any more less informed sounding than he has on this subject. It was getting close to how i feel the average bopper understands the sport.
 
Especially when one bike is superior to the other in off corner acceleration. The highlighted quote is spot on. Even though Kesh has done some racing, he couldnt have come across any more less informed sounding than he has on this subject. It was getting close to how i feel the average bopper understands the sport.

The RCV had a better trap speed than the M1 did, but it meant .... all because you could see MM had .... traction coming out of the final corner. Had the RCV been getting equal grip out of that corner to the M1, the overtake everyone was clamoring for would have happened. Having a high trap speed is worthless if you are losing a few tenths on the initial acceleration.
 
Well known people have already discussed that Valencia is a one-line circuit where overtaking rarely happens.

You don't have to buy into it, but everything about that circuit confirms those statements.

From Mat Oxley's piece...

a5wytyq.jpg


There's reality and then there is what you want to believe. You're free to believe whatever you'd like, and your experience racing bikes has no application to what the circuit in Valencia is like.


I'll grant you Oxley's piece is well informed.

But to be clear - (for a 6th time) I haven't once referred to speed trap numbers.

I was quoting laptimes. Big difference,

Regardless of Oxley's contention - it's not as nobody EVER passed at the front at Valencia since the dawn of time. And take note: If anyone is well known for daring passes - it's Marquez. Yes it's true the R1 is known for having great stability out of corners - but the Honda is likewise known for having grunt in the straights. So I still contend that if Dani could make up that much time over the last few laps - that it's not unreasonable (considering the laptimes he was posting) to believe that MM had the pace and the HP to make a pass in one of the less undulate sections of the track. Especially given that Lorenzo's rear rubber was shot and he was in no condition to fight back.

I'm not talking absolute certainty - but well within the realm of possibility. Here's actual footage disproving Oxley's hype.





At least 5 examples of MM overtaking Lorenzo at Valencia. There's what you want to believe and then there's video evidence to the contrary.
 
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