The Untouchables

Keshav · Dec 6, 2015

Arrabbiata1 said:
On the contrary Talps, some are making strenuous efforts to avoid the whole unfortunate misadventure now. You know close season can traditionally be quiet on here, but I invite you to speculate on the new Yamaha fuel tank, perhaps share your views on John Cooper, the recent post season tests, the upcoming shareware and return of Michelin, the new KTM machine or the WSBk tests and the entry list for next season.

Or maybe outside of motorcycle racing, perhaps you are partial to pugilism, the English Premier League or more broadly speaking you would have an interesting lifestyle during the off season?

The problem appears to be that you rarely post on any subject other than Valentino Rossi or your loathing of any rider that has challenged his 'supremacy'.

I dunno, what are your plans for Christmas?

I hadn't realized that Papa Ratzo was actually Tilapia.

paparazzo · Dec 6, 2015

Arrabbiata1 said:
On the contrary Talps, some are making strenuous efforts to avoid the whole unfortunate misadventure now. You know close season can traditionally be quiet on here, but I invite you to speculate on the new Yamaha fuel tank, perhaps share your views on John Cooper, the recent post season tests, the upcoming shareware and return of Michelin, the new KTM machine or the WSBk tests and the entry list for next season.

Or maybe outside of motorcycle racing, perhaps you are partial to pugilism, the English Premier League or more broadly speaking you would have an interesting lifestyle during the off season?

The problem appears to be that you rarely post on any subject other than Valentino Rossi or your loathing of any rider that has challenged his 'supremacy'.

I dunno, what are your plans for Christmas?

My plans for X-mas the same as every year spend money. I do not follow English soccer even though you think I am an Englishmen named Talps. I am really in Quebec, admin can confirm this, we follow hockey here, I am one of the very few oddball who watches racing of any kind, from track and field, to bikes, to cars, to horses.

Reality is it takes me too much time to post, English is not my first language and I have to go searching and translating words back/forth with thesauras, dictionary and translate because the Anglo grammer/punctuation police in here wants perfect spelling and syntax

Keshav said:
I was definitely talking about Valencia, as regards how it affected the final points standing leading to the championship.

No one will argue that Rossi was more deserving. (Well except the yellow smog nutcases) but that's immaterial.

I would argue that Dani had the potential to take first or second in that race. In the early stages of the race (despite riding on a full tank which is problematic for the midget) he was 4/10ths quicker than Lorenzo by the 4th lap. By the 6th lap he was gaining steadily.

Meanwhile MM spent the entire race rarely more than 3/10ths behind Lorenzo - never once trying to pass him.

With 9 laps to go, MM was lapping 2/10ths quicker than Lorenzo and then falling back showing clearly that he had the pace to pass Lorenzo.

With 8 laps to go Pedrosa really picked up the pace lapping 1/10 of a second quicker than Marquez.

With 7 laps to go Pedrosa closed the gap between him and MM by 8/10ths of a second. The logical thing for MM to do (in view of Pedrosa closing in like a missile) would be to get past Lorenzo and go for it. Instead... the little ...... sat on Lornezo's tail like a wingman creating a barrier to Pedrosa to keep him from passing. No-one with a capacity for critical judgement could deny that he was sandbagging. Marquez hadn't dueled with anyone and his tires were in good shape; Lorenzo's maybe not so much. MM had the skills and the faster bike but made not one attempt to pass Lorenzo.

With 2 circuits remaining Pedrosa was up close and personal lapping a full 7/10ths a second faster than Lorenzo and poised to take one of the two top spots on the podium.

If MM had done the job Honda was paying him to do, he'd have made (at the very least) some pantomime of trying to pass Lorenzo - but he just sat there glued to Lorenzo's back tire. The undeniable fact that both Honda riders were consistently able to lap faster than Lorenzo throughout the race is a clear indication that they were capable of passing Lorenzo and taking first and second on the podium.

Again... (and you Pov know me from years on this forum) know I've never been a Rossi supporter, so you know that I don't write this out of sour grapes, but only to contend that MM really threw the race out of childish spite.

Personally - I wouldn't have been overjoyed if Rossi had gained (notice I didn't say "won") the championship - but I'd have preferred to see Marquez fully utilize his skills and and state-of-the-art prototype bike to take the podium rather than to skew the results out of a sense of personal vendetta.

Thank you sir for this post. This is what I was talking about with 'observable facts'. You can also add that Jorge's rear tire, in his own words "was completely destroyed" during the parc ferme interview. MM should have won by 5-10 seconds easy, DP would have passed Jorge but instead makes it look like some sort of epic all out race for Jorge. I've been wanting to do something similar only it would take me 3 hours to post it.

Jumkie · Dec 6, 2015

Hey Bozzo, Instead of learning to spell words in English perhaps you should learn the meaning of facts and logic. You base your entire understanding on the same paranoid interpretations as your leader Rossi.

Rossi came up with the same conclusions as you did after observing Phillip Island. This should give you and anybody of your ilk pause regarding our understanding of observation.

povol · Dec 6, 2015

Keshav said:
I was definitely talking about Valencia, as regards how it affected the final points standing leading to the championship.

But you were debating a guy who was discussing Marquez's pace at Sepang. Anywho, here is my take. PI was not a strategy to help Lorenzo and that is obvious. Rossi in a fit of paranoid desperation started the mess in Sepang on Thursday. On race day , nobody was going with Dani. Once Marquez realized he had nothing for the win, he decided to play with Rossi, albeit cleanly. Rossi lost his mind for the second time in 3 days and caused Marquez to crash. Rossi is punished with points, Marquez is punished unfairly by RD by publicly shaming him. Told he was being watched at Valencia, a notoriously difficult place to pass, he never made a risky lunge that would have given Rossi the title, and yes i beleive that was on his mind. Had it been Rossi leading, and passing him would give the title to Lorenzo, i think he tries a risky lunge. This is nothing new where nationalism and friendship plays out on race tracks around the world every raceday. When i say friendship, im not saying Lorenzo and Marquez are friends, furthest thing from it, but it is obvious that Rossi has problems being civil with serious competitors and this time, turning what was a civil relationship into a full blown war bit him in the ....

povol · Dec 6, 2015

paparazzo said:
The move became illegal when MM dropped his bike. Had MM not have dropped it and continued we wouldn't be discussing this since there wouldn't be a penalty, "rider in front can choose to go outside as wide as he wants..." Dani Pedrosa, post race press conference, Sepang.

This forum would also be reduced to a dozen posts about furniture, .... pills, how the game is rigged for VR to win and everyone else to lose and delusions of Casey Stoner return had Marc stayed on the bike.

I dont know why you keep saying the rider in front can choose. Marquez led Rossi into that corner and Rossi then gained the "lead" by purposely blowing the corner to go after Marquez. Had Marquez not gone down,Rossi would have still been penalized for irresponsible riding, but probably not 3 points. Im curious as to what you think Rossi was actually trying to accomplish if it wasnt crashing him. Had Marquez not crashed, he would have still been glued to Rossi's tail, so what was he trying to do. By the way, why did you change your forum name.

JPSLotus · Dec 6, 2015

Interesting how people continue to have no problem with riders parting for Rossi in Valencia, which is no different from the supposed race-rigging that people are accusing MM of engaging in by not passing Lorenzo in the same race.

You do realize the mental gymnastics involved with this right?

AntG · Dec 6, 2015

Marquez passing Lorenzo wouldn't have made a difference, Lorenzo would have won a tiebreaker.

Jumkie · Dec 6, 2015

AntG said:
Marquez passing Lorenzo wouldn't have made a difference, Lorenzo would have won a tiebreaker.

But more to the point, these morons assume Marc and Pedro would have succeeded in passing Lorenzo, based on what .... only knows. These supposed "observable facts" used to make absolute conclusions are chosen selectively by the morons using them to extrapolate their viewpoint. Here is another observable FACT, Pedrosa, Mr. Integrity, couldn't even execute a pass on Marquez, but we are supposed to absolutely conclude his 'pace' MEANS he was magically going to get passed Lorenzo, because what, Lorenzo was going to move out of Pedro's and Marc's way?

....... ..... logic.

AntG · Dec 6, 2015

Pedrosa could have got past Lorenzo but then he'd be helping Rossi.

Jumkie · Dec 6, 2015

AntG said:
Pedrosa could have got past Lorenzo but then he'd be helping Rossi.

Marc and Pedro were just doing what Rossi ordered: don't fight with a contender. Isn't that what Rossi wanted?

JPSLotus · Dec 6, 2015

Jumkie said:
But more to the point, these morons assume Marc and Pedro would have succeeded in passing Lorenzo, based on what .... only knows. These supposed "observable facts" used to make absolute conclusions are chosen selectively by the morons using them to extrapolate their viewpoint. Here is another observable FACT, Pedrosa, Mr. Integrity, couldn't even execute a pass on Marquez, but we are supposed to absolutely conclude his 'pace' MEANS he was magically going to get passed Lorenzo, because what, Lorenzo was going to move out of Pedro's and Marc's way?

....... ..... logic.

It's as if people have forgotten that Valencia is a 1 line track.

Jumkie · Dec 6, 2015

povol said:
But you were debating a guy who was discussing Marquez's pace at Sepang. Anywho, here is my take. PI was not a strategy to help Lorenzo and that is obvious. Rossi in a fit of paranoid desperation started the mess in Sepang on Thursday. On race day , nobody was going with Dani. Once Marquez realized he had nothing for the win, he decided to play with Rossi, albeit cleanly. Rossi lost his mind for the second time in 3 days and caused Marquez to crash. Rossi is punished with points, Marquez is punished unfairly by RD by publicly shaming him. Told he was being watched at Valencia, a notoriously difficult place to pass, he never made a risky lunge that would have given Rossi the title, and yes i beleive that was on his mind. Had it been Rossi leading, and passing him would give the title to Lorenzo, i think he tries a risky lunge. This is nothing new where nationalism and friendship plays out on race tracks around the world every raceday. When i say friendship, im not saying Lorenzo and Marquez are friends, furthest thing from it, but it is obvious that Rossi has problems being civil with serious competitors and this time, turning what was a civil relationship into a full blown war bit him in the ....

I don't for one second buy into the narrative that Rossi CREATED from paranoia for everyone to then PERCEIVE Marquez's racing. Marc set out to go about his business at Sepang, that Rossi then engaged him and Marc returned the exchange to beat eachother, then to say Marc's intent was to play, toy, mess, revenge, whatever other than racing is to BUY into Rossi’s narrative. Nobody expressed this narrative after PI, something I can't overstate! The only change for Sepang was Rossi's inputting this seed into people's minds that Marc was engaging in something OTHER THAN racing. That is the ONLY reason why people perceive the exchange in any other way, other than Marc extremely motivated to BEAT Rossi. Beating a guy versus toying, messing, playing with a guy are world's apart. The only reason to think one from the other is to buy into Rossi's ideation! I for one don't, and insist that Marc, as a person and competitor is NOT as damaged in character as IS Rossi to employ such tactics. He is not vindictive or pre planning dubious Machiavellian maneuvers to subvert the competition on the track. Even when Marc plowed into the Thai rider it was not from a place in his heart of premeditation. Unlike Rossi, who everyone believes to manipulate people, the media, the fans, the organizers to a particular end ( after all were not everybody including the boppers claiming that it was this great mastermind mind game by Rossi?. Until he took his doctored charts to friendly Italian media.) Marc gets on with it on a different level, almost an innocence about it, or better yet a purity of just going balls out. It was this episode that has actually made him think to measure his approach, as he admitted as much at the award show that ..... ... sore loser Rossi didn't attend.

So no, I don't buy into Marc messing with Rossi as I'm not going to be bamboozled or tainted in any way to perceive what happened on the track as related to Rossi's accusations or paranoia about how Marc raced him.

Jumkie · Dec 6, 2015

JPSLotus said:
It's as if people have forgotten that Valencia is a 1 line track.

MoronBozzo should only tune in to watch the 20 min warm-up, then if anything shakes out different to the RACE than the warm-up positions he should declare it all a sham. .... why even have a race?

Jumkie · Dec 6, 2015

JPSLotus said:
It's as if people have forgotten that Valencia is a 1 line track.

Well it didn't look like that when Rossi’s friends moved out of his way. Perhaps that's why so many genius observers think it would have been just as easy for Marc and Pedro to pass Lorenzo for the lead.

Keshav · Dec 6, 2015

povol said:
I dont know why you keep saying the rider in front can choose. Marquez led Rossi into that corner and Rossi then gained the "lead" by purposely blowing the corner to go after Marquez. Had Marquez not gone down,Rossi would have still been penalized for irresponsible riding, but probably not 3 points. Im curious as to what you think Rossi was actually trying to accomplish if it wasnt crashing him. Had Marquez not crashed, he would have still been glued to Rossi's tail, so what was he trying to do. By the way, why did you change your forum name.

AntG said:
Marquez passing Lorenzo wouldn't have made a difference, Lorenzo would have won a tiebreaker.

JPSLotus said:
It's as if people have forgotten that Valencia is a 1 line track.

I've already copped to moving to a different tangent. Happens on forums.

I'm not particularly fired up about anything that happened at PI.

I do agree that Rossi's comments about MM seemed like he was suffering from the beginnings of dementia.

As to Marquez allegedly believing he had nothing for the win; well, that's speculation. As to whether MM was ....... with Rossi (at Sepang) to cause him to lose the race or whether he was just ....... with him as payback for the crazy .... he said with no particular outcome in mind; it's clear to all that MM was not focusing his talents and energy on passing Rossi and closing in on any riders in front of him, which is what is expected of him by his employers as well as the prime principle of the sport. People can throw all the nonsensical rationalizations at this incident they can invent - but bottom line is, RD said it was unsporting and contrary to the spirit of racing. The majority of the professional observers of the sport, as well as most of the professional riders interviewed agreed. Marquez's behavior was childish and unprofessional; so call a Wahhmbulance - because he was scolded for juvenile behavior. He made his bed and then he had to lie in it.

Regarding Valencia being a notoriously difficult place to pass. C'mon Pov, really? That's pretty weak Bro. Grandpa Rossi passed the whole field in a matter of how many laps? And since when has Marquez been afraid to take a risk? Especially when there's no championship at stake. That just doesn't hold water.

No argument about Rossi's lack of civility, tho, I think you'll find if you talk to racers from earlier generations, that lack of diplomacy between top competitors has always been around; it just wasn't being instantly Tweeted and repeated on internet forums.

Re: Ant G... if Marquez had passed Lorenzo instead of being Lorenzo's wingman - there was a high degree of liklihood that (given the rate at which Pedrosa was homing in, that a pass by Pedrosa was practically a given; especially as has been mentioned earlier, Lorenzo's rear rubber was trashed.

Some folks want to wear blinders or stick their head in the sand about Marquez's intent at Sepang and they're welcome to do so. There's never been any shortage of folks on this forum who are blatantly and perversely contrary to the point of denying what is right in front of their eyes, because on the internet, no-one can afford to be wrong.

Cool Blue · Dec 6, 2015

paparazzo said:
The move became illegal when MM dropped his bike. Had MM not have dropped it and continued we wouldn't be discussing this since there wouldn't be a penalty, "rider in front can choose to go outside as wide as he wants..." Dani Pedrosa, post race press conference, Sepang.

Have you read the rules? Or rule in fact, there's only one about rider behaviour and it's completely subjective. If your going to make statements like that then link it to the rule instead of just waving your hands and quoting a rider comment in a PC.

And the rules are available in French as well by the way.

Gaz · Dec 6, 2015

paparazzo said:
The move became illegal when MM dropped his bike. Had MM not have dropped it and continued we wouldn't be discussing this since there wouldn't be a penalty, "rider in front can choose to go outside as wide as he wants..." Dani Pedrosa, post race press conference, Sepang.

It was adjudged as such by Race Control that the dropping of the bike made or confirmed the illegality of the move ........... correct

I do however suspect that the very FACT that Rossi did not hide the intention of running wide and slowing 'to a near stop' (his words) was actually larger in the scheme of things that was the crash itself.

Further, I suspect that given Assen and Argentina, if MM did not crash then HRC (MM's side of the garage) would likely have protested in some way (they had already set a precedence) and possibly VR's comments would have been the same.

IMO only, but irrespective of the end result, to me the simply fact that VR admitted to riding to push MM wide whilst slowing to a 'near stop' so that he could confront MM about the (perceived) actions is the reason he was punished, rather than the end result

Jumkie · Dec 6, 2015

Gaz said:
race control...

The only thing I need to know about this entity, is that as a matter of FACT by ADMISSION, they turned first to the championship standings to decide what to do in a matter of SAFETY.

Credibly=0
Relevancy of anything they said beyond that=0

To use anything they said for or against this debate is of worthless value. Even them saying Marc didn't do anything wrong is suspect, because just as easily they could have said, we believe Marc broke rules, as it entirely was based on their ability to read minds.

The idiots basing their assessment of Marc's motives are entirely based first on the perception Rossi created, because NONE of these supposed experts or fans expressed their sentiments of foul play at Phillip Island. Yet Rossi did!!!! Think about that for a moment. Rossi said Marc race fixed PI but who else was sure of it? NOBODY! Then Rossi accuses Marc before Sepang, and suddenly EVERYONE stupid enough to be susceptible to Rossi mind control is SURE Marc rode to race fix Sepang.

So WITHOUT Rossi's seeds of mind control on these morons (includes journalists, experts, former racers, and racers, basically ANYONE who thinks Sepang was any different than Phillip Island) then NONE would have expressed this opinion. Exactly how they did NOT have this opinion for Phillip Island.

JPSLotus · Dec 6, 2015

Keshav said:
I've already copped to moving to a different tangent. Happens on forums.

I'm not particularly fired up about anything that happened at PI.

I do agree that Rossi's comments about MM seemed like he was suffering from the beginnings of dementia.

As to Marquez allegedly believing he had nothing for the win; well, that's speculation. As to whether MM was ....... with Rossi (at Sepang) to cause him to lose the race or whether he was just ....... with him as payback for the crazy .... he said with no particular outcome in mind; it's clear to all that MM was not focusing his talents and energy on passing Rossi and closing in on any riders in front of him, which is what is expected of him by his employers as well as the prime principle of the sport. People can throw all the nonsensical rationalizations at this incident they can invent - but bottom line is, RD said it was unsporting and contrary to the spirit of racing. The majority of the professional observers of the sport, as well as most of the professional riders interviewed agreed. Marquez's behavior was childish and unprofessional; so call a Wahhmbulance - because he was scolded for juvenile behavior. He made his bed and then he had to lie in it.

Regarding Valencia being a notoriously difficult place to pass. C'mon Pov, really? That's pretty weak Bro. Grandpa Rossi passed the whole field in a matter of how many laps? And since when has Marquez been afraid to take a risk? Especially when there's no championship at stake. That just doesn't hold water.

No argument about Rossi's lack of civility, tho, I think you'll find if you talk to racers from earlier generations, that lack of diplomacy between top competitors has always been around; it just wasn't being instantly Tweeted and repeated on internet forums.

Re: Ant G... if Marquez had passed Lorenzo instead of being Lorenzo's wingman - there was a high degree of liklihood that (given the rate at which Pedrosa was homing in, that a pass by Pedrosa was practically a given; especially as has been mentioned earlier, Lorenzo's rear rubber was trashed.

Some folks want to wear blinders or stick their head in the sand about Marquez's intent at Sepang and they're welcome to do so. There's never been any shortage of folks on this forum who are blatantly and perversely contrary to the point of denying what is right in front of their eyes, because on the internet, no-one can afford to be wrong.

Kesh, guys were actively MOVING out of Rossi's way.

Using that as proof that MM could have overtaken Lorenzo is hilarious.

See you guys want it both ways, you don't want MM getting involved in a title fight if it means Rossi might be at a disadvantage, but if it put Lorenzo at a disadvantage, THEN BY ALL MEANS, GET INVOLVED!

Do you guys even think about the conflict involved here with that line of thought?

Second...not taking a stupid risk for a move that might not even stick is something that MM started doing the second half of the season as opposed to the first half when he crashed out or nearly crashed out a few times because of that.

Rossi deserved to lose the title, he didn't have the pace to catch up the main group even without the penalty factored in.

Blaming MM is a ....... cop-out and ........ smoke and mirrors excuse that has been peddled since the flag dropped to absolve VR of not being GOOD ENOUGH to win the title. You and the rest seem to have bought into this ........ which speaks volumes about why VR got away with everything he has in his career. He creates red herrings all the time, and the GP fans at large are oblivious!

Keshav · Dec 6, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Kesh, guys were actively MOVING out of Rossi's way.

Using that as proof that MM could have overtaken Lorenzo is hilarious.

See you guys want it both ways, you don't want MM getting involved in a title fight if it means Rossi might be at a disadvantage, but if it put Lorenzo at a disadvantage, THEN BY ALL MEANS, GET INVOLVED!

Do you guys even think about the conflict involved here with that line of thought?

Second...not taking a stupid risk for a move that might not even stick is something that MM started doing the second half of the season as opposed to the first half when he crashed out or nearly crashed out a few times because of that.

Rossi deserved to lose the title, he didn't have the pace to catch up the main group even without the penalty factored in.

Blaming MM is a ....... cop-out and ........ smoke and mirrors excuse that has been peddled since the flag dropped to absolve VR of not being GOOD ENOUGH to win the title. You and the rest seem to have bought into this ........ which speaks volumes about why VR got away with everything he has in his career. He creates red herrings all the time, and the GP fans at large are oblivious!

JP - While it's true that some riders seemed to be getting passed rather easily - they were for the most part guys who were slower riders, virtually back-markers on non- satellite bikes who he would have had no problem passing simply by virtue of better handling and superior HP. As he got towards the front of the pack numerous riders did in fact block him and hold him back (in the normal fashion for racing). My point was more that it's not true that Valencia is a "One line track" as clearly, Rossi was passing all over the place and on one pass in particular (I think it was Bautista) the pass was notably brilliant. The secondary reason for mentioning this is that if Rossi who is past his prime )and said by so many to not be as talented as the press etc. make him) could manage to make all those passes in that short amount of time, it logically follows that Marquez, who is younger and extremely talented - could with no other riders close to him, make a pass on Lorenzo. I wasn't suggesting that Rossi could catch Lorenzo. My point was made to give credence to the proposal that MM passing Lorenzo (as he's done so many times in the past - including at Valencia) was not a big ask. Fact is - he never even pretended to try to pass Lorenzo. What in your estimation would make his trying to pass Lorenzo particularly risky at this race as opposed to any other race? He had the pace and the bike was handling well. Yet over the course of more than 20 laps he simply never tried once to make a pass.

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