The Untouchables

J4rn0 said:

Rossi knows very well these racing tricks, he applied them himself when he was faster than others, "playing" along at his will and then taking off in the last two laps to win. That's probably why he recognizes them now.

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Serious question here J4 and not a play or attack, but given your comment above does that not also mean that VR has ridden like a .... a number of times whilst playing with these riders?

Whats wrong with being a ....?

JohnnyKnockdown said:

Whats wrong with being a ....?

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Apparently ....... have been known to complain if you are to big a .... or if you tell them to shove it up their ...

Keshav said:

"Racing for position" (in the real world) means passing as many riders as possible in order to get the best position for the most points. That Marquez continually passed Rossi and then, instead of taking off to hunt down Lorenzo.... let himself be overtaken just to rinse and repeat, is not "racing for position". It's being a ..... What with all the MM apologists promoting multiple implausible double-speak rationalizations why they claim to believe MM was not capable of passing Rossi and moving to the front, I have to double check to make sure I'm not watching Fox News.

No matter how much everybody dislikes Rossi - it doesn't excuse Marquez's unprofessional, immature behavior. Marquez is no martyr. Both were ......... It's not a case of either / or.

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Where's your proof that MM had the pace to match Lorenzo at Sepang?

No one has any proof of this and should stop claiming it as fact.

Oh and before anyone says well look at Dani Pedrosa, let's not forget how many races we've seen where MM was ahead of Dani by a country mile in spite of both having factory RCV's.

Hell, we don't even need to limit it to Honda.

We could do comparisons between Stoner and say Loris Capirossi in 2007.

JPSLotus said:

Where's your proof that MM had the pace to match Lorenzo at Sepang?

No one has any proof of this and should stop claiming it as fact.

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You're asking for a smoking gun knowing full well there is none. But empirical evidence in every way points to that conclusion. Look at the way Dani was making time at the end of the race coming from, how far back? And given that MM was up at the pointy end right from the beginning and has only ever rarely been beaten by Dani one can put two and two together. In point of fact has Dani ever beaten MM except by way of MM having a DNF? Marquez's bike was well sorted out by this point and he's a far better riderr than Dani. What is the likelihood of Dani catching up with Marquez so late in the race when Marquez had such a huge advantage? Baring mechanical failure or tire defect, - I go with the Occam's Razor explanation, being that the most obvious answer is the right one.

Keshav said:

You're asking for a smoking gun knowing full well there is none. But empirical evidence in every way points to that conclusion. Look at the way Dani was making time at the end of the race coming from, how far back? And given that MM was up at the pointy end right from the beginning and has only ever rarely been beaten by Dani one can put two and two together. In point of fact has Dani ever beaten MM except by way of MM having a DNF? Marquez's bike was well sorted out by this point and he's a far better riderr than Dani. What is the likelihood of Dani catching up with Marquez so late in the race when Marquez had such a huge advantage? Baring mechanical failure or tire defect, - I go with the Occam's Razor explanation, being that the most obvious answer is the right one.

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lol

What smoking gun?

What empirical evidence?????

Dani beat MM at Motegi by 27 seconds...which would mean MM did not have a DNF.

JPSLotus said:

lol

a. What smoking gun?

b. What empirical evidence?????

c. Dani beat MM at Motegi by 27 seconds...which would mean MM did not have a DNF.

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a. Let's not go down cognitive dissonance road again. I know, that you understand exactly what I mean.

b. I've presented all the empirical evidence. If you choose not to acknowledge it - that's on you.

c. My question was genuine. I could not remember when or if Dani had ever beaten Marquez. So - yes, he beat Dani, once. Not the kind of numbers that any betting man would cite when trying to convince anyone that it was likely to happen again, especially given Marquez's huge advantage at the final round.

b. You haven't presented anything.

Keshav said:

My question was genuine. I could not remember when or if Dani had ever beaten Marquez. So - yes, he beat Dani, once. Not the kind of numbers that any betting man would cite when trying to convince anyone that it was likely to happen again, especially given Marquez's huge advantage at the final round.

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Dani throughout his career has had untouchable weekends when he has been faster than Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo or anyone else you care to name, even MM, and Sepang certainly always looked like such a week-end, he was faster than MM in every session pre-race as well.

michaelm said:

Dani throughout his career has had untouchable weekends when he has been faster than Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo or anyone else you care to name, even MM, and Sepang certainly always looked like such a week-end, he was faster than MM in every session pre-race as well.

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Umm, no he was not fastest in all sessions, MM was much faster than DP in the warmup by more than 3/4 of a second. And during the race MM mysteriously can't get to within 8/10ths to that time, some laps almost 2 seconds off.

And please do not try and sell me this excuse of 'changing track temperatures' and 'front tire overheating from lap 1' when all the other riders were all within 1-2/10th's of their lap times, some even faster, than a few hours earlier in the wamup. Why not just face facts, not only the verifiable ones but the observable ones such as how MM was deliberately trying to induce VR to crash.

paparazzo said:

Umm, no he was not fastest in all sessions, MM was much faster than DP in the warmup by more than 3/4 of a second. And during the race MM mysteriously can't get to within 8/10ths to that time, some laps almost 2 seconds off.

And please do not try and sell me this excuse of 'changing track temperatures' and 'front tire overheating from lap 1' when all the other riders were all within 1-2/10th's of their lap times, some even faster, than a few hours earlier in the wamup. Why not just face facts, not only the verifiable ones but the observable ones such as how MM was deliberately trying to induce VR to crash.

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You seem to have a problem with opinion vs fact. The observable fact is that Rossi did deliberately make Marquez crash.

michaelm said:

You seem to have a problem with opinion vs fact. The observable fact is that Rossi did deliberately make Marquez crash.

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The observable fact is that Rossi wanted to move him outside to slow him down. Another observable fact was Marc opened the throttle and turned straight into VR handlebars and all and crashed. One can also say that Marc leaned into VR to induce Rossi to drop the bike, since he's shown on a few occasions this season he has no problem making contact with Rossi.

paparazzo said:

The observable fact is that Rossi wanted to move him outside to slow him down. Another observable fact was Marc opened the throttle and turned straight into VR handlebars and all and crashed. One can also say that Marc leaned into VR to induce Rossi to drop the bike, since he's shown on a few occasions this season he has no problem making contact with Rossi.

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Again, Rossi was the one who went drastically off the racing line and drastically slowed, and was found to have made an illegal move by Race Direction, which caused the incident. You can try (and have tried) to spin it anyway you like, but that is what is factual, it is the rest which is opinion and speculation.

Keshav said:

You're asking for a smoking gun knowing full well there is none. But empirical evidence in every way points to that conclusion. Look at the way Dani was making time at the end of the race coming from, how far back? And given that MM was up at the pointy end right from the beginning and has only ever rarely been beaten by Dani one can put two and two together. In point of fact has Dani ever beaten MM except by way of MM having a DNF? Marquez's bike was well sorted out by this point and he's a far better riderr than Dani. What is the likelihood of Dani catching up with Marquez so late in the race when Marquez had such a huge advantage? Baring mechanical failure or tire defect, - I go with the Occam's Razor explanation, being that the most obvious answer is the right one.

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You have your races mixed up, no one was touching Dani at Sepang, it was Valencia where Dani had pace at the end of the race to catch Marquez and Lorenzo. The debate is, did Marquez have the pace to go with Lorenzo at Sepang. I say no he didn't and there is no proof of any kind to suggest he did.

povol said:

You have your races mixed up, no one was touching Dani at Sepang, it was Valencia where Dani had pace at the end of the race to catch Marquez and Lorenzo. The debate is, did Marquez have the pace to go with Lorenzo at Sepang. I say no he didn't and there is no proof of any kind to suggest he did.

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I had forgotten the warm-up which I didn't watch but like you thought going into the race that no-one, including Lorenzo whom I was supporting, was going to touch Dani in the race. If you have watched him over the years as you obviously have when he is on he is on, and doesn't necessarily worry about being fastest in the warm-up. In most years except 2012 he has only produced these performances a few times a year though, for whatever reason; injury has obviously played a part but I have always thought he was overly fussy and not happy unless the bike is absolutely perfect for him.

michaelm said:

Again, Rossi was the one who went drastically off the racing line and drastically slowed, and was found to have made an illegal move by Race Direction, which caused the incident. You can try (and have tried) to spin it anyway you like, but that is what is factual, it is the rest which is opinion and speculation.

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The move became illegal when MM dropped his bike. Had MM not have dropped it and continued we wouldn't be discussing this since there wouldn't be a penalty, "rider in front can choose to go outside as wide as he wants..." Dani Pedrosa, post race press conference, Sepang.

This forum would also be reduced to a dozen posts about furniture, .... pills, how the game is rigged for VR to win and everyone else to lose and delusions of Casey Stoner return had Marc stayed on the bike.

paparazzo said:

The move became illegal when MM dropped his bike. Had MM not have dropped it and continued we wouldn't be discussing this since there wouldn't be a penalty

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And your point is?

I doubt you will find much disagreement, from me or anyone else, with the contention that Rossi wouldn't have been blamed, or penalised, for causing MM to crash if he hadn't caused him to crash.

paparazzo said:

This forum would also be reduced to a dozen posts about furniture, .... pills, how the game is rigged for VR to win and everyone else to lose and delusions of Casey Stoner return had Marc stayed on the bike.

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On the contrary Talps, some are making strenuous efforts to avoid the whole unfortunate misadventure now. You know close season can traditionally be quiet on here, but I invite you to speculate on the new Yamaha fuel tank, perhaps share your views on John Cooper, the recent post season tests, the upcoming shareware and return of Michelin, the new KTM machine or the WSBk tests and the entry list for next season.

Or maybe outside of motorcycle racing, perhaps you are partial to pugilism, the English Premier League or more broadly speaking you would have an interesting lifestyle during the off season?

The problem appears to be that you rarely post on any subject other than Valentino Rossi or your loathing of any rider that has challenged his 'supremacy'.

I dunno, what are your plans for Christmas?

povol said:

You have your races mixed up, no one was touching Dani at Sepang, it was Valencia where Dani had pace at the end of the race to catch Marquez and Lorenzo. The debate is, did Marquez have the pace to go with Lorenzo at Sepang. I say no he didn't and there is no proof of any kind to suggest he did.

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I was definitely talking about Valencia, as regards how it affected the final points standing leading to the championship.

No one will argue that Rossi was more deserving. (Well except the yellow smog nutcases) but that's immaterial.

I would argue that Dani had the potential to take first or second in that race. In the early stages of the race (despite riding on a full tank which is problematic for the midget) he was 4/10ths quicker than Lorenzo by the 4th lap. By the 6th lap he was gaining steadily.

Meanwhile MM spent the entire race rarely more than 3/10ths behind Lorenzo - never once trying to pass him.

With 9 laps to go, MM was lapping 2/10ths quicker than Lorenzo and then falling back showing clearly that he had the pace to pass Lorenzo.

With 8 laps to go Pedrosa really picked up the pace lapping 1/10 of a second quicker than Marquez.

With 7 laps to go Pedrosa closed the gap between him and MM by 8/10ths of a second. The logical thing for MM to do (in view of Pedrosa closing in like a missile) would be to get past Lorenzo and go for it. Instead... the little ...... sat on Lornezo's tail like a wingman creating a barrier to Pedrosa to keep him from passing. No-one with a capacity for critical judgement could deny that he was sandbagging. Marquez hadn't dueled with anyone and his tires were in good shape; Lorenzo's maybe not so much. MM had the skills and the faster bike but made not one attempt to pass Lorenzo.

With 2 circuits remaining Pedrosa was up close and personal lapping a full 7/10ths a second faster than Lorenzo and poised to take one of the two top spots on the podium.

If MM had done the job Honda was paying him to do, he'd have made (at the very least) some pantomime of trying to pass Lorenzo - but he just sat there glued to Lorenzo's back tire. The undeniable fact that both Honda riders were consistently able to lap faster than Lorenzo throughout the race is a clear indication that they were capable of passing Lorenzo and taking first and second on the podium.

Again... (and you Pov know me from years on this forum) know I've never been a Rossi supporter, so you know that I don't write this out of sour grapes, but only to contend that MM really threw the race out of childish spite.

Personally - I wouldn't have been overjoyed if Rossi had gained (notice I didn't say "won") the championship - but I'd have preferred to see Marquez fully utilize his skills and and state-of-the-art prototype bike to take the podium rather than to skew the results out of a sense of personal vendetta.