The Untouchables

JPSLotus · Dec 6, 2015

Keshav said:
JP - While it's true that some riders seemed to be getting passed rather easily - they were for the most part guys who were slower riders, virtually back-markers on non- satellite bikes who he would have had no problem passing simply by virtue of better handling and superior HP. As he got towards the front of the pack numerous riders did in fact block him and hold him back (in the normal fashion for racing). My point was more that it's not true that Valencia is a "One line track" as clearly, Rossi was passing all over the place and on one pass in particular (I think it was Bautista) the pass was notably brilliant. The secondary reason for mentioning this is that if Rossi who is past his prime )and said by so many to not be as talented as the press etc. make him) could manage to make all those passes in that short amount of time, it logically follows that Marquez, who is younger and extremely talented - could with no other riders close to him, make a pass on Lorenzo. I wasn't suggesting that Rossi could catch Lorenzo. My point was made to give credence to the proposal that MM passing Lorenzo (as he's done so many times in the past - including at Valencia) was not a big ask. Fact is - he never even pretended to try to pass Lorenzo. What in your estimation would make his trying to pass Lorenzo particularly risky at this race as opposed to any other race? He had the pace and the bike was handling well. Yet over the course of more than 20 laps he simply never tried once to make a pass.

Pay attention to this...

JPSLotus said:
Second...not taking a stupid risk for a move that might not even stick is something that MM started doing the second half of the season as opposed to the first half when he crashed out or nearly crashed out a few times because of that.

I ripped MM to no end because of the risks he was taking, which also was putting others on the track at risk.

He rode smarter than I thought he was ever capable of doing in the second half of the season.

Why he didn't try the overtake on Lorenzo...would be why he started performing better in the second half.

Unless of course, you'd rather he revert back to his battering ram ways so as to make everyone feel better.

lol it's hilarious, all we have are second guesses, conjecture, insinuations, influencing statements, all of which never happen if Rossi keeps his mouth shut at Sepang.

Rossi created a red herring, and now everyone is seeing ghosts where there are none.

It's why the JFK assassination still holds such interest 50 years on with the conspiracy theories. Most of the people regurgitate ad nauseum the cockamamie .... that was put forth in Oliver Stone's JFK...almost all of which has no factual basis...or the theories of other wackos who refuse to acknowledge reality and that a nutjob got lucky one day in the autumn of 1963.

Unreal.

Keshav · Dec 6, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Pay attention to this...

I ripped MM to no end because of the risks he was taking, which also was putting others on the track at risk.

He rode smarter than I thought he was ever capable of doing in the second half of the season.

Why he didn't try the overtake on Lorenzo...would be why he started performing better in the second half.

Unless of course, you'd rather he revert back to his battering ram ways so as to make everyone feel better.

lol it's hilarious, all we have are second guesses, conjecture, insinuations, influencing statements, all of which never happen if Rossi keeps his mouth shut at Sepang.

Rossi created a red herring, and now everyone is seeing ghosts where there are none.

It's why the JFK assassination still holds such interest 50 years on with the conspiracy theories. Most of the people regurgitate ad nauseum the cockamamie .... that was put forth in Oliver Stone's JFK...almost all of which has no factual basis...or the theories of other wackos who refuse to acknowledge reality and that a nutjob got lucky one day in the autumn of 1963.

Unreal.

Disagree Amigo. That's totally bass-ackwards. He rode better and crashed less in the 2nd half of the season because Honda R&D finally gave him the chassis he wanted and made the necessary tweaks to the electronics that allowed him to ride as well as he did in the previous two seasons. This is not a "theory". It's what he stated to the journos in no uncertain terms.

michaelm · Dec 6, 2015

Keshav said:
JP - While it's true that some riders seemed to be getting passed rather easily - they were for the most part guys who were slower riders, virtually back-markers on non- satellite bikes who he would have had no problem passing simply by virtue of better handling and superior HP. As he got towards the front of the pack numerous riders did in fact block him and hold him back (in the normal fashion for racing). My point was more that it's not true that Valencia is a "One line track" as clearly, Rossi was passing all over the place and on one pass in particular (I think it was Bautista) the pass was notably brilliant. The secondary reason for mentioning this is that if Rossi who is past his prime )and said by so many to not be as talented as the press etc. make him) could manage to make all those passes in that short amount of time, it logically follows that Marquez, who is younger and extremely talented - could with no other riders close to him, make a pass on Lorenzo. I wasn't suggesting that Rossi could catch Lorenzo. My point was made to give credence to the proposal that MM passing Lorenzo (as he's done so many times in the past - including at Valencia) was not a big ask. Fact is - he never even pretended to try to pass Lorenzo. What in your estimation would make his trying to pass Lorenzo particularly risky at this race as opposed to any other race? He had the pace and the bike was handling well. Yet over the course of more than 20 laps he simply never tried once to make a pass.

You mean apart from the reasonable speculation that he was quite possibly told by RD not to put any risky moves on championship contenders after all the brouhaha surrounding the Sepang race?

What is factual is what Rossi did, and admitted doing, in the Sepang race. All else is speculation, particularly what Rossi said about the PI race, which cheapened Jorge's eventual championship win and blackened MM's character, to the extent that it may blight his entire career.

My own speculation is that MM did nothing untoward at PI in winning that race, and by his own standards anyway didn't put any risky moves on either contender. He was extremely annoyed at Sepang, and decided he wouldn't be passed by Rossi, and that he would turn Rossi's time honoured tactic back on him ie immediately re- pass when passed. In his situation at Sepang he is absolutely entitled to try to beat Rossi imo, but some of his moves were probably while legal too hard given he does in my view have some obligation in the circumstance not to take out a contender with a rash move.

At Valencia given the nature of the track he would have had to put on a hard move to pass Jorge. Whether he might have been more prepared to put a hard move on Rossi is another question.

Bottom line is that after a great season Rossi had insufficient pace in the last 3 races, which happened all to be dry, after several earlier races had happened to be wet

Keshav · Dec 6, 2015

michaelm said:
You mean apart from the reasonable speculation that he was quite possibly told by RD not to put any risky moves on championship contenders after all the brouhaha surrounding the Sepang race?

What is factual is what Rossi did, and admitted doing, in the Sepang race. All else is speculation, particularly what Rossi said about the PI race, which cheapened Jorge's eventual championship win and blackened MM's character, to the extent that it may blight his entire career.

My own speculation is that MM did nothing untoward at PI in winning that race, and by his own standards anyway didn't put any risky moves on either contender. He was extremely annoyed at Sepang, and decided he wouldn't be passed by Rossi, and that he would turn Rossi's time honoured tactic back on him ie immediately re- pass when passed. In his situation at Sepang he is absolutely entitled to try to beat Rossi imp, but some of his moves were probably while legal htoo hard given he does in my view have some obligation in the circumstance not to take out a contender with a rash move.

At Valencia given the nature of the track he would have had to put on a hard move to pass Jorge. Whether he might have been more prepared to put a hard move on Rossi is another question.

Bottom line is that after a great season Rossi had insufficient pace in the last 3 races, which happened all to be dry, after several earlier races had happened to be wet

Oh come one Michael! Define "risky". All racing is risky. Are you suggesting that the only possible way for Marquez to pass Lorenzo would entail taking a foolhardy pass with little or no chance of completing it safely???

All passes are based on taking a reasonable degree of risk. Over the course of the 2nd half of the season Marquez demonstrated that he was perfectly capable of making passes that were both inspired and safe. It's not as if Lorenzo was using over-the-top, super aggressive moves to block attempts from Marquez at passing.

I have said not word one about any untoward move by MM at PI.

Nor have I been in any way an apologist in any way for Rossi, nor was I suggesting that he had the pace to catch Lorenzo.

That notwithstanding.... Marquez may as well been on the Yamaha payroll with team orders to protect Lorenzo. Completely out of character for him as a rider.

That Rossi behaved like an ....... at PI and Sepang isn't being debated. We all agree.

povol · Dec 6, 2015

As a competitor all my life, I have a pretty good idea of what Marquez was thinking at Sepang. He knew he didn't ha e the pace to win, and when he found himself fighting with Rossi for the final podium spot, I knew it was going to get real. It was a given that if these 2 ended up battling for position that Marquez was not going to back down. I personally don't care if Marquez was ....... with Rossi, as a matter of fact , I hope he was ....... with him at Sepang as long as he stayed within the rules. Rossi created the situation and deserves anything bad that came his way. As far as Valencia, not one person on earth besides Marquez knows if he did or did not have the pace to make a safe pass. Saying that he did because his teammate had late race pace shows a total lack of understanding of racing.

Keshav · Dec 6, 2015

povol said:
As a competitor all my life, I have a pretty good idea of what Marquez was thinking at Sepang. He knew he didn't ha e the pace to win, and when he found himself fighting with Rossi for the final podium spot, I knew it was going to get real. It was a given that if these 2 ended up battling for position that Marquez was not going to back down. I personally don't care if Marquez was ....... with Rossi, as a matter of fact , I hope he was ....... with him at Sepang as long as he stayed within the rules. Rossi created the situation and deserves anything bad that came his way. As far as Valencia, not one person on earth besides Marquez knows if he did or did not have the pace to make a safe pass. Saying that he did because his teammate had late race pace shows a total lack of understanding of racing.

Nonsense. Marquez has kicked Dani's ... multiple times over the last 3 seasons - demonstrating that on most given days, he's much better rider.

Marquez was at the front of the race from lap one consistently sitting on Lorenzo's tail. If Pedrosa - who is demonstrably a lesser rider, could make it up to the front after suffering from a huge deficit - then it's not hard to put two and two together and say that there is a 98% likelihood that MM had the pace and ability to pass. To suggest otherwise is nonsensical and wishful thinking (wishful in that anyone who suggests this expects a person with a facility for critical thinking could be moved to believe this).

povol · Dec 6, 2015

Keshav said:
Nonsense. Marquez has kicked Dani's ... multiple times over the last 3 seasons - demonstrating that on most given days, he's much better rider.

Marquez was at the front of the race from lap one consistently sitting on Lorenzo's tail. If Pedrosa - who is demonstrably a lesser rider, could make it up to the front after suffering from a huge deficit - then it's not hard to put two and two together and say that there is a 98% likelihood that MM had the pace and ability to pass. To suggest otherwise is nonsensical and wishful thinking (wishful in that anyone who suggests this expects a person with a facility for critical thinking could be moved to believe this).

Two different riders, riding styles, setup, etc etc etc . On any given day Dani is unbeatable, yes by even Marquez. You are showing a considerable lack of racing knowledge if you think that just because one team bike is fast at the end of a race, the other teammate is automatically going to be just as fast. I can only think of around a million instances where the complete opposit is true.

JPSLotus · Dec 6, 2015

Keshav said:
Disagree Amigo. That's totally bass-ackwards. He rode better and crashed less in the 2nd half of the season because Honda R&D finally gave him the chassis he wanted and made the necessary tweaks to the electronics that allowed him to ride as well as he did in the previous two seasons. This is not a "theory". It's what he stated to the journos in no uncertain terms.

Yes the so-called phantom bike issues, where everything on the bike was blamed from the engine to the swing arm, to the electronics, chassis itself, and finally to Casey Stoner himself.

........ that it let him ride as well as he did in the previous two seasons.

He had a lot of issues with the front end and was still complaining about a lack of front end feel in the second half when the supposed issues were all "fixed".

No, there was nothing wrong with the bike, there was something suspect with those tires however.

Even on one lap pace, no man has ever gone faster around that circuit than Jorge Lorenzo...he nearly broke in to the 1 minute 29's. MM was 3/10ths off his pole position time. He was just under a tenth in the fastest lap time during the actual race. But Jorge Lorenzo was riding at a level beyond anything...MM was on the ragged edge trying to keep up. You assume MM was faster because you simply want it to be so for whatever reasons you have, none of which I particularly care about.

And yes Valencia is a one line track on the fastest bikes possible. Citing an overtake on Alvaro Bautista --who is riding an Aprilia that is slower than a bunch of satellite machines-- as well as the others who put up zero fight against the Cryer of Tavullia, is not reasonable. Overtakes are possible in certain corners outside of turn 1 or 2, but you generally don't see them when the bikes involved are the best machines on the grid. They have a very small window with where they can overtake. If you watched the Moto 3 race, you would have seen a lack of overtaking in that race as well.

Another thing to consider, you as well as many others are making the mistake of thinking MM could have overtaken Lorenzo, and then MADE the overtake stick. Lorenzo was riding at a level not even VR could ever achieve when he needed to. I would like to direct you to 2013's title decider at Valencia when Lorenzo did everything, short of pulling out a blackjack to use on Dani. Lorenzo would have done the same thing to MM had MM been able to get past him in 2015.

What you're really doing here when you take away all the ........, is that you're essentially discrediting Jorge Lorenzo's ride under immense pressure by implying the race was give to him by MM. Much like Phillip Island, which was one of the finest races in years, people are actively undermining what Jorge Lorenzo did in Valencia. Instead of seeing it was one of the all-time great pressure performances in not only MotoGP, but all sports for that matter, you are basically taking a position that undermines the very real and likely possibility that MM simply couldn't get the last bit of speed to overtake. Undermining is another tried and true tactic from the Rossi playbook.

JPSLotus · Dec 6, 2015

povol said:
Two different riders, riding styles, setup, etc etc etc . On any given day Dani is unbeatable, yes by even Marquez. You are showing a considerable lack of racing knowledge if you think that just because one team bike is fast at the end of a race, the other teammate is automatically going to be just as fast. I can only think of around a million instances where the complete opposit is true.

Stoner - Capirossi 2007.

J4rn0 · Dec 7, 2015

Gaz said:
Serious question here J4 and not a play or attack, but given your comment above does that not also mean that VR has ridden like a .... a number of times whilst playing with these riders?

That depends on the intention. Mostly VR played for the show, to make his wins more spectacular, but occasionally he also has raced like a .... just as Marquez did against him at Sepang. That makes it even more surprising that he would lose his head like that, although there was the pressure of the title race of course, with the added pressure of the "last chance in career" that can explain (but not justify) his reaction.

J4rn0 · Dec 7, 2015

Jumkie said:
Well homie, the premise of your argument has been repeatedly debunked. Rossi was in fact not slowed down. Fact, get it through your yellow skull. Given he crashed out his rival, we won't ever know what Marc's pace would have been without Rossi trying to aggressively overtake him, disturbing Marc; but we do know what Rossi's pace was free from Marquez, newsflash: it was .... all different. Just like in Valencia, had Rossi started from pole at Sepang, he wasn't going to beat Pedrosa nor Lorenzo because he was too slow. Face it.

Rossi took out his frustrations on innocent Marquez because of his sleep deprived chickenshit mental breakdown paranoia. Anyone who buys into that absolute ........ is weak minded, apart from loss of reality. If Rossi were to sell you beach property in Kansas, you and your ilk would sign up. But it's a mirage you've convinced yourself is real.

Everybody knows that riders who get engaged in protracted duels lose time. So that would have been the only protracted (and nasty) duel in history in wich the contenders didn't lose some time? Give me a break.

I know the argument that Rossi didn't improve his lap times much after MM crashed, but that (intentionally) doesn't take into account the obvious fact that, at that point, Rossi's concentration was broken -- he must have been thinking of the consequences of what he had just done, so how could he keep racing at his best in that situation? And Lorenzo was gone anyway.

Objectivity is something completely alien to you, but that we already know. Debating with you is not at all difficult -- it's just useless.

michaelm · Dec 7, 2015

Keshav said:
Oh come one Michael! Define "risky". All racing is risky. Are you suggesting that the only possible way for Marquez to pass Lorenzo would entail taking a foolhardy pass with little or no chance of completing it safely???

All passes are based on taking a reasonable degree of risk. Over the course of the 2nd half of the season Marquez demonstrated that he was perfectly capable of making passes that were both inspired and safe. It's not as if Lorenzo was using over-the-top, super aggressive moves to block attempts from Marquez at passing.

I have said not word one about any untoward move by MM at PI.

Nor have I been in any way an apologist in any way for Rossi, nor was I suggesting that he had the pace to catch Lorenzo.

That notwithstanding.... Marquez may as well been on the Yamaha payroll with team orders to protect Lorenzo. Completely out of character for him as a rider.

That Rossi behaved like an ....... at PI and Sepang isn't being debated. We all agree.

Nonsense about MM being on Yamaha's payroll at Valencia imo. As has been said Lorenzo ran at near record speeds the whole race including running the fastest lap of the race, and certainly appeared to me to be close to his limit for most of the race. If MM had wanted to protect him, he would have hung 5 seconds off him as has been said (including by MM himself I believe), not pushed him to his limit for the whole race.

I am open to the suggestion that MM might not have made a hard move in the last couple of laps when he might normally have done so; late race passes as at PI were in fact mostly his modus operandi in the second half of the season, which I, like JPS Lotus, found to be a surprisingly smart tactic from him after crashing out of many races earlier in the season. His explanation for not making a late race passing attempt was that Dani attacked as he was about to make his move. Don't believe him if you choose, but as I said he was very likely under instructions from RD to be circumspect about how he raced contenders, which may have suited his inclinations perfectly if he wanted to continue being bloody minded about Rossi, and I think I have mentioned previously that I could see possible further irony in this if it was the case as it would mean Rossi's shenanigans/mindgames backfired on him yet further. Btw, you with others seem to be both complaining about how MM raced Rossi at Sepang yet expecting him to race Jorge similarly or even harder at Valencia despite RD becoming involved and apparently chastising him (without finding him guilty of any actual offence) after Sepang.

If we are going to speculate, I am in agreement with Povol that with no pre-Sepang press conference allegations and "normal" racing Rossi finishes 4th and 4th in the Sepang and Valencia races.

JPSLotus · Dec 7, 2015

michaelm said:
Nonsense about MM being on Yamaha's payroll at Valencia imo. As has been said Lorenzo ran at near record speeds the whole race including running the fastest lap of the race, and certainly appeared to me to be close to his limit for most of the race. If MM had wanted to protect him, he would have hung 5 seconds off him as has been said (including by MM himself I believe), not pushed him to his limit for the whole race.

I am open to the suggestion that MM might not have made a hard move in the last couple of laps when he might normally have done so; late race passes as at PI were in fact mostly his modus operandi in the second half of the season, which I, like JPS Lotus, found to be a surprisingly smart tactic from him after crashing out of many races earlier in the season. His explanation for not making a late race passing attempt was that Dani attacked as he was about to make his move. Don't believe him if you choose, but as I said he was very likely under instructions from RD to be circumspect about how he raced contenders, which may have suited his inclinations perfectly if he wanted to continue being bloody minded about Rossi, and I think I have mentioned previously that I could see possible further irony in this if it was the case as it would mean Rossi's shenanigans/mindgames backfired on him yet further. Btw, you with others seem to be both complaining about how MM raced Rossi at Sepang yet expecting him to race Jorge similarly or even harder at Valencia despite RD becoming involved and apparently chastising him (without finding him guilty of any actual offence) after Sepang.

If we are going to speculate, I am in agreement with Povol that with no pre-Sepang press conference allegations and "normal" racing Rossi finishes 4th and 4th in the Sepang and Valencia races.

That's the biggest thing, if you are trying to help the guy in front win, you wouldn't be riding at his pace which was only going to add to the pressure he was already under with needing to take a race victory to give himself the best possible chance of winning the title. Both Honda's would have backed off and given Lorenzo a nice gap of 5-10 seconds.

What's really incredible about this, is people continue taking Rossi at face value in spite of the glaring contradictions with things he has said, or outright evidence that doesn't support any of his ridiculous assertions.

michaelm · Dec 7, 2015

JPSLotus said:
That's the biggest thing, if you are trying to help the guy in front win, you wouldn't be riding at his pace which was only going to add to the pressure he was already under with needing to take a race victory to give himself the best possible chance of winning the title. Both Honda's would have backed off and given Lorenzo a nice gap of 5-10 seconds.

What's really incredible about this, is people continue taking Rossi at face value in spite of the glaring contradictions with things he has said, or outright evidence that doesn't support any of his ridiculous assertions.

As you also said, if Dani (who looked if anything the fastest to me at the end of the race) couldn't pass MM why would either have necessarily been able to pass JL anyway? He might have let one past, but would have resisted a second pass at least as hard as MM did Dani"s attempt since it would then have been his only chance of winning the championship, and we would have been in the situation of a contender possibly going down which is what all previous controversy had been about. I suspect a successful pass at Valencia would have required something more extreme than anything MM pulled at Sepang.

JPSLotus · Dec 7, 2015

michaelm said:
As you also said, if Dani (who looked if anything the fastest to me at the end of the race) couldn't pass MM why would either have necessarily been able to pass JL anyway? He might have let one past, but would have resisted a second pass at least as hard as MM did Dani"s attempt since it would then have been his only chance of winning the championship, and we would have been in the situation of a contender possibly going down which is what all previous controversy had been about. I suspect a successful pass at Valencia would have required something more extreme than anything MM pulled at Sepang.

Here is Dani trying to get past Lorenzo in 2013...

He could not make any of those moves stick.

MM had a front row seat to that, and would have known in 2015's race that making any of those moves would not have had a guarantee of sticking. You could sense before getting attacked by Dani, that MM was getting ready to line up a move on JL, and we would have seen the overtake everyone was clamoring for. When Dani attacked, that disrupted MM from ever making that attempt.

That's what motor racing tends to be when machines are fairly evenly matched on track, it takes many laps to even setup an overtake, and then to pull off that overtake since you're probing for an opening to show itself.

Once VR got into P4, he couldn't close that gap any further and started dropping back because he couldn't keep up with the pace of the frontrunners.

Keshav · Dec 7, 2015

povol said:
Two different riders, riding styles, setup, etc etc etc . On any given day Dani is unbeatable, yes by even Marquez. You are showing a considerable lack of racing knowledge if you think that just because one team bike is fast at the end of a race, the other teammate is automatically going to be just as fast. I can only think of around a million instances where the complete opposit is true.

Two different bikes but not as different as the Honda compared to the Yamaha. The general consensus (at least during the 2nd half of the season) is that the two Hondas were the weapon of choice. Yes - two different styles of riding - but both riders have two different crews working day and night to tailor the bikes to suit their individual needs.

To be clear... I'm talking about the Hondas being a better all 'round bike, and not mere top speed. The fact that top speed is not the deciding factor in many races has been discussed here so many times it should be permanently engraved in stone.

As to Dani being able to beat MM "on any given day" .... well, statistics show that simply isn't so. Other than cases where MM DNFd - nobody here has cited more than one race where Dani beat Marquez in a straight up battle. One race out more than 30 hardly constitutes "on any given day".

Keshav · Dec 7, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Yes the so-called phantom bike issues, where everything on the bike was blamed from the engine to the swing arm, to the electronics, chassis itself, and finally to Casey Stoner himself.

........ that it let him ride as well as he did in the previous two seasons.

He had a lot of issues with the front end and was still complaining about a lack of front end feel in the second half when the supposed issues were all "fixed".

No, there was nothing wrong with the bike, there was something suspect with those tires however.

Even on one lap pace, no man has ever gone faster around that circuit than Jorge Lorenzo...he nearly broke in to the 1 minute 29's. MM was 3/10ths off his pole position time. He was just under a tenth in the fastest lap time during the actual race. But Jorge Lorenzo was riding at a level beyond anything...MM was on the ragged edge trying to keep up. You assume MM was faster because you simply want it to be so for whatever reasons you have, none of which I particularly care about.

And yes Valencia is a one line track on the fastest bikes possible. Citing an overtake on Alvaro Bautista --who is riding an Aprilia that is slower than a bunch of satellite machines-- as well as the others who put up zero fight against the Cryer of Tavullia, is not reasonable. Overtakes are possible in certain corners outside of turn 1 or 2, but you generally don't see them when the bikes involved are the best machines on the grid. They have a very small window with where they can overtake. If you watched the Moto 3 race, you would have seen a lack of overtaking in that race as well.

Another thing to consider, you as well as many others are making the mistake of thinking MM could have overtaken Lorenzo, and then MADE the overtake stick. Lorenzo was riding at a level not even VR could ever achieve when he needed to. I would like to direct you to 2013's title decider at Valencia when Lorenzo did everything, short of pulling out a blackjack to use on Dani. Lorenzo would have done the same thing to MM had MM been able to get past him in 2015.

What you're really doing here when you take away all the ........, is that you're essentially discrediting Jorge Lorenzo's ride under immense pressure by implying the race was give to him by MM. Much like Phillip Island, which was one of the finest races in years, people are actively undermining what Jorge Lorenzo did in Valencia. Instead of seeing it was one of the all-time great pressure performances in not only MotoGP, but all sports for that matter, you are basically taking a position that undermines the very real and likely possibility that MM simply couldn't get the last bit of speed to overtake. Undermining is another tried and true tactic from the Rossi playbook.

In brief - the whole business where you insist there was nothing wrong with the Honda at he beginning of the season is strictly conjecture on your part with nothing to back it up

Keshav · Dec 7, 2015

michaelm said:
Nonsense about MM being on Yamaha's payroll at Valencia imo. As has been said Lorenzo ran at near record speeds the whole race including running the fastest lap of the race, and certainly appeared to me to be close to his limit for most of the race. If MM had wanted to protect him, he would have hung 5 seconds off him as has been said (including by MM himself I believe), not pushed him to his limit for the whole race.

I am open to the suggestion that MM might not have made a hard move in the last couple of laps when he might normally have done so; late race passes as at PI were in fact mostly his modus operandi in the second half of the season, which I, like JPS Lotus, found to be a surprisingly smart tactic from him after crashing out of many races earlier in the season. His explanation for not making a late race passing attempt was that Dani attacked as he was about to make his move. Don't believe him if you choose, but as I said he was very likely under instructions from RD to be circumspect about how he raced contenders, which may have suited his inclinations perfectly if he wanted to continue being bloody minded about Rossi, and I think I have mentioned previously that I could see possible further irony in this if it was the case as it would mean Rossi's shenanigans/mindgames backfired on him yet further. Btw, you with others seem to be both complaining about how MM raced Rossi at Sepang yet expecting him to race Jorge similarly or even harder at Valencia despite RD becoming involved and apparently chastising him (without finding him guilty of any actual offence) after Sepang.

If we are going to speculate, I am in agreement with Povol that with no pre-Sepang press conference allegations and "normal" racing Rossi finishes 4th and 4th in the Sepang and Valencia races.

Michael - I said "may as well have been". You know I like my hats without tinfoil.

There's a wide chasm between being circumspect and sitting around with one's thumb up their ....

Keshav · Dec 7, 2015

JPSLotus said:
That's the biggest thing, if you are trying to help the guy in front win, you wouldn't be riding at his pace which was only going to add to the pressure he was already under with needing to take a race victory to give himself the best possible chance of winning the title. Both Honda's would have backed off and given Lorenzo a nice gap of 5-10 seconds.

What's really incredible about this, is people continue taking Rossi at face value in spite of the glaring contradictions with things he has said, or outright evidence that doesn't support any of his ridiculous assertions.

I would propose that MM had to at least give the illusion that he intended to pass Lorenzo so as not to be painfully obvious in his intent.

As to "both" Hondas hanging back, no-one has proposed that Dani was sandbagging. He had no motive to do so. Clearly he was trying to make a last lap pass on Lorenzo at Valencia.

JPSLotus · Dec 7, 2015

Keshav said:
In brief - the whole business where you insist there was nothing wrong with the Honda at he beginning of the season is strictly conjecture on your part with nothing to back it up

When a plethora of things were being blamed and then backtracked on endlessly, and even when the bike was turned into a hodgepodge of 2014 and 2015 parts, there was still the same comments involved, I'd say something was different with the front tire construction from 2014 to 2015.

Mind you, with the revised bike, MM was still complaining about floating feeling in the front. I'd argue this was less a bike problem, and more an issue with tire construction, and god knows MotoGP would never have tire design altered.

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