The Untouchables

MotoGP Forum

Help Support MotoGP Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Kesh can you read?

Did you miss the part where he said 5 of the last 9 grands prix at Valencia there was no overtaking?

5 of 9 equals 55.5%, which equates roughly half. So you have a slightly greater than 50% chance of a race at Valencia being rather static at the front of the grid. 2015 was a perfectly normal occurrence.

That you somehow think because MM passed Lorenzo in the past at this circuit means he should have done so in 2015's race is completely moronic. If all things were equal to the past, that's another story, but in 2015, the bikes were different, the tires were different, the setups were different, and I'm not even getting into things like track temperature, ambient temperature.

FYI, regarding trap speed, I was replying to povol on that, I never said anything to you about it.
 
Kesh can you read?

Did you miss the part where he said 5 of the last 9 grands prix at Valencia there was no overtaking?

5 of 9 equals 55.5%, which equates roughly half. So you have a slightly greater than 50% chance of a race at Valencia being rather static at the front of the grid. 2015 was a perfectly normal occurrence.

That you somehow think because MM passed Lorenzo in the past at this circuit means he should have done so in 2015's race is completely moronic. If all things were equal to the past, that's another story, but in 2015, the bikes were different, the tires were different, the setups were different, and I'm not even getting into things like track temperature, ambient temperature.

FYI, regarding trap speed, I was replying to povol on that, I never said anything to you about it.

Did you watch the videos from the last two seasons? They clearly show MM passing Lorenzo multiple times at the "one line track".

What we're discussing is not the relative merits of the bikes from year to year but rather the track itself and the videos at Valencia clearly refute Oxley's contention
 
Did you watch the videos from the last two seasons? They clearly show MM passing Lorenzo multiple times at the "one line track".

What we're discussing is not the relative merits of the bikes from year to year but rather the track itself and the videos at Valencia clearly refute Oxley's contention

Dude, seriously what the .... is wrong with you?

OXLEY CLEARLY STATES 5 OUT OF THE LAST 9 RACES THERE HAD BEEN NO OVERTAKING AT THE FRONT.
 
I'll grant you Oxley's piece is well informed.

But to be clear - (for a 6th time) I haven't once referred to speed trap numbers.

I was quoting laptimes. Big difference,

Regardless of Oxley's contention - it's not as nobody EVER passed at the front at Valencia since the dawn of time. And take note: If anyone is well known for daring passes - it's Marquez. Yes it's true the R1 is known for having great stability out of corners - but the Honda is likewise known for having grunt in the straights. So I still contend that if Dani could make up that much time over the last few laps - that it's not unreasonable (considering the laptimes he was posting) to believe that MM had the pace and the HP to make a pass in one of the less undulate sections of the track. Especially given that Lorenzo's rear rubber was shot and he was in no condition to fight back.

I'm not talking absolute certainty - but well within the realm of possibility. Here's actual footage disproving Oxley's hype.





At least 5 examples of MM overtaking Lorenzo at Valencia. There's what you want to believe and then there's video evidence to the contrary.

This is 2015, the Yamaha is the dominant bike. You really dont understand how this works do you.And once again, Lorenzo's fastest lap of the last five was the final lap, so yes, he was in condition to fight back.
 
Accusing Marquez of not trying hard enough at Valencia to pull a pass is absurdity.


Anyway, here is Herve's take on the situation. I agreed and disagreed with a few takes, particularly his assessment that the penalty was good enough to me is crazy talk. Rossi should have been black flagged, suspended from the next race, and license pulled for 6 months, period. Most people continue to base their opinion of the penalty on Marc not being hurt, but if he had been paralyized or killed, would deliberately taking him out to this end would have merited a 3 point penalty? Of course not, this would have influenced the penalty. But the action should be viewed regardless of the luck Marc had of not being injured. Furthermore, allowing Rossi to keep his podium and the 16 points by an action that eliminated the rival from contesting that position is absolute perversion of competition.

MotoGP News - MotoGP: ?Uncertainty? fuelled polemic after Rossi, Marquez clash
 
Last edited:
This is 2015, the Yamaha is the dominant bike. You really dont understand how this works do you.And once again, Lorenzo's fastest lap of the last five was the final lap, so yes, he was in condition to fight back.

How does Oxley define the front? At what point in the race do the top four riders become the front. Is he claiming that none of the top four ever got passed once in the course of the whole race at Valencia? I don't think so.

Again, it's not the bike that is at issue. What's being debated is the notion that this is a one line track and the video clearly gives lie to that notion. Unless you think I doctored the video.

That fact that the last lap was Lorenzo's fastest means nothing. I repeat - nothing. It was one fast lap at a desperate hail-mary moment in a race where the Hondas were consistently posting quicker laptimes throughout the race.

Oxley is not infallible and the videos prove that. If Oxley were to say nobody at the front tried to pass at Valencia in the last two laps - that might make sense - but it wouldn't rule out Lorenzo being passed much earlier - which Marquez was poised to do.

To say that nobody has passed at the front over the course of X number of races does not preclude it happening at different race. In MotoGp riders constantly do things no-one has seen before.

To say nobody has ever passed in the last few laps is like saying nobody has broken a certain track record and that nobody ever will.
 
Last edited:
Kesh, you still have no grasp of what Oxley said. Let me show it to you again...try and read.

a5wytyq.jpg


"At five of the last nine dry-weather MotoGP races at the track there wasn't a single overtaking manoeuvre at the front. Not one."

Still not grasping what this means?

Troy Bayliss went flag to flag in 2006 with no one trying a single overtake on him.

Stoner did the same thing in 2008 and Lorenzo did the same thing in 2015.

Stop acting like it's some sort of freak occurrence. It's not.
 
Kesh, you still have no grasp of what Oxley said. Let me show it to you again...try and read.

a5wytyq.jpg


"At five of the last nine dry-weather MotoGP races at the track there wasn't a single overtaking manoeuvre at the front. Not one."

Still not grasping what this means?

Troy Bayliss went flag to flag in 2006 with no one trying a single overtake on him.

Stoner did the same thing in 2008 and Lorenzo did the same thing in 2015.

Stop acting like it's some sort of freak occurrence. It's not.

The freak occurrence would be Kesh admitting he is full of .... on this subject. If you watch, Rossi made a bunch of passes on riders who were not only getting out of his way, but were over a second slower. Once he got to Smith, it took him 2 laps to get by a rider who was 1/2 a second slower. Imagine trying to pull a pass at Valencia on a rider who is as fast or faster. Marquez could have made a hazardous lunge but unless he punted Lorenzo it was never going to stick, plus im 100% sure he was being very cautious not to punt Lorenzo. He waited for a mistake that never came. Lorenzo ran a fast flawless race, PERIOD.
 
Hasn't Lorenzo grabbed the lead at the beginning of the race and never been headed on several occasions this year? I don't see the controversy.
 
Hasn't Lorenzo grabbed the lead at the beginning of the race and never been headed on several occasions this year? I don't see the controversy.

Lorenzo's 7 race victories were FLAG TO FLAG.

The people looking for conspiracies have continued to ignore that Lorenzo was absolutely dominant in the races he won, and most importantly, in the race HE NEEDED TO WIN.
 
The freak occurrence would be Kesh admitting he is full of .... on this subject. If you watch, Rossi made a bunch of passes on riders who were not only getting out of his way, but were over a second slower. Once he got to Smith, it took him 2 laps to get by a rider who was 1/2 a second slower. Imagine trying to pull a pass at Valencia on a rider who is as fast or faster. Marquez could have made a hazardous lunge but unless he punted Lorenzo it was never going to stick, plus im 100% sure he was being very cautious not to punt Lorenzo. He waited for a mistake that never came. Lorenzo ran a fast flawless race, PERIOD.

Truth. It really is fascinating this point has to be made on this forum, where supposedly there are knowledgable people who understand motorcycle road racing. Passing Bautista who was 2 second a lap slower was one thing, passing Lorenzo, who won his races this year exactly like this, was quite another! Hey look, Rossi passed a bunch of slow guys, therefore Valencia has a big passing lane. How dumb do you have to be to make this conclusion? None of them were going to fight back anyway, Rossi made sure that wouldn't happened with his epic whine and tongue lashings.

About the unique thin race line at Valencia: It doesn't mean people can't pass, it means that passing a guy for the lead, who is generally the fastest guy on the track is a special proposition! Hence why Oxley made a point of saying for the LEAD! Did he say, hey, you can't pass at Valencia for 5th place? I'm laughing thinking how this razor thin line isn't being understood here. In order for Marc to have attempted a pass on Lorenzo, who was practically at the limit, would have required Marquez to go off the race line. Why is this true? Because Lorenzo was occupying that ideal race line, and he wasn't going to move out of the way. So the best strategy for Marc was to be on his ..., push him to the limit, then if a mistake happened (that means going off the race line) then Marquez was there to make up the space! What does that mean in terms of racing? This means the rider then loses time when attempting a pass, because to go off the race line isn't ideal, the consequence is to lose time. So to gain the position, there has to be time made up somehow. Its simple mechanics. Therefore an extra risk must be taken to make up this time as a consequence of going off the ideal race line, in this case a very small narrow space. Is this risk possible, reasonable (and given the pace of the guy in front of you) worth the extraordinary action? This is why pointing out LAP TIME, as has been done on this thread means .... all!!! (Oh, I know the people pointing out Pedro and Marc's lap time won't understand this point.) This means the rider behind needs something to compensate for going off the ideal line. Either a better drive out of the corner or brake deeper into the corner, or just blow the braking marker and punt the rider, like Rossi did at Jerez 05. Lorenzo had them both covered. In fact this absurd idea that because Pedrosa had greater pace and riding the SAME equipment to then draw the conclusion-- therefore Marquez failed to attempt a pass, is mind boggling when you consider the observable fact that Pedrosa wasn't even able to pass his teammate. What happened when Pedrosa tried a pass? The answer is: Pedrosa, with his better pace still had to do something to gain the position, the simple mechanics of the action caused him to go wide. WHY? Because that was the consequence of trying to make up time and the space, the consequence was to go wide, that is how hard it is to pass when the guy in front of you is riding within similar pace combined with a THIN RACE LINE. Marquez then occupied that space, because again, Marquez was running a similar pace, at least fast enough to capitalize on Pedrosa going off the ideal line. WHY? WHY?

WHY?!!! Because that is the characteristic and consequence of a fine race line. Pedrosa was not able to execute a pass on Marquez! Yet Pedrosa had slightly greater pace, these are facts! So how in the sane world anybody would say Marquez was sandbagging by not passing Lorenzo, who had better drive is pure stupidity and or a failure to appreciate the pace at which Lorenzo was going. You see what is happening is that people are comparing a pass at other tracks or a pass in other conditions, for lower positions, not considering the stakes that were on the table either. If the question is, could have Marc made a bonsai lunge to attempt a pass, the answer is yes. The thing is people assume this would have stuck. Add to this, Marc was under orders, thanks to ..... ... Rossi and his Race Direction friends, not to do something stupid. And add to that, he had learned before Rossi's tainted of people's minds, that he needed to be more measure, as he admitted at the award show (that 'graceless' Rossi snubbed). That is the .... these fools can't get into their head. What they are thinking as a failure for Marc to attempt a typical Marquez pass was no longer on the table. Again, thanks to ..... ... Rossi who put a chilling effect on spirited racing, because he no longer like it. They expected Marquez to bonsai like he did at Jerez. Except imagine if he had done that to Rossi? Oh lord, the internet would have broken, and a petition to lynch Marquez wouldn't have been needed, they would have invaded the track and clubbed him to death on the spot! Could Marquez have done that? Yes, anybody can. Just blow the braking marker. Is that a clean pass attempt? No. I seriously don't think the racing line is being understood here and what that means for the mechanics of a pass. Now add to this Lorenzo's pace. To say Pedrosa or Marquez passing Lorenzo would have been a given is absurd to the nth degree. Not only was Pedrosa not able to pass his own teammate on the "same" equipment, but think about what Lorenzo would have been capable of doing to preserve his championship.

I'm reminded of the movie, Morons in Space. "Morons, I'm surrounded by Morons!"
 
Last edited:
Did you watch the videos from the last two seasons? They clearly show MM passing Lorenzo multiple times at the "one line track".

What we're discussing is not the relative merits of the bikes from year to year but rather the track itself and the videos at Valencia clearly refute Oxley's contention

2013 and 2014 presumably constitute 2 of the 4 years when passing did occur, unless Oxley's whole contention is fictitious. I think 2013 could easily have been added to the 5 races with no passing had this been Jorge's wish; if you recall Jorge was desperately trying to get MM to race and hence have the potential to make a mistake, but MM wouldn't play and Rossi was unwilling or unable to compete with MM either and was content to stay 4th, and I am sure Jorge could have won flag to flag that year if that would have won him the championship.

MM could pass anyone any time in 2014; he won 10 races or so in a row. Assuming he could do the same this year on this year's bike against this year's opposition led to him crashing out of 5 races (Rossi crashed him out of a 6th obviously) putting him out of contention for this year's title and led to a changed approach in the latter half of the season.

So we have a track where it is historically difficult to pass, a rider who quite commonly wins flag to flag who had the fastest qualifying time for and fastest lap of the race, and a rider who finished 2nd who had been admonished for racing championship contenders too hard. Explanations other than a conspiracy theory exist, although as Oxley says only MM will really know if he could have passed easily; even he might be wrong as he wouldn't know what Jorge's capability was.
 
Last edited:
How does Oxley define the front? At what point in the race do the top four riders become the front. Is he claiming that none of the top four ever got passed once in the course of the whole race at Valencia? I don't think so.

Again, it's not the bike that is at issue. What's being debated is the notion that this is a one line track and the video clearly gives lie to that notion. Unless you think I doctored the video.

That fact that the last lap was Lorenzo's fastest means nothing. I repeat - nothing. It was one fast lap at a desperate hail-mary moment in a race where the Hondas were consistently posting quicker laptimes throughout the race.

Oxley is not infallible and the videos prove that. If Oxley were to say nobody at the front tried to pass at Valencia in the last two laps - that might make sense - but it wouldn't rule out Lorenzo being passed much earlier - which Marquez was poised to do.

To say that nobody has passed at the front over the course of X number of races does not preclude it happening at different race. In MotoGp riders constantly do things no-one has seen before.

To say nobody has ever passed in the last few laps is like saying nobody has broken a certain track record and that nobody ever will.

We've all seen 2015. Honda's have consistently posted faster times at a number of races. In fact the five previous races Lorenzo won it was common for the Honda to set the fastest lap. It was also common for Marquez to crash the following lap.

Honda's have also been consistently reported to be difficult to keep on pace without running wide, to avoid losing the front, to get traction on the straight due to the evil engine etc etc etc. We have debated this to death. The Honda has issues or it doesn't. Yes or no. Are you now convinced no issue, then Marquez suddenly lost his talent as you say. If yes, Honda has issues, then they have to take a risk to attempt to pass. In fact to take it further, Lorenzo won 4 races straight leading every single lap. Not one attempted overtake in 100 laps? So obviously the conspiracy must have started long ago.

Its entirely plausible Marquez was unable to attempt a reasonable pass. He even says it was in his interests to make a pass. He wanted to, couldn't. I don't suddenly doubt him just as you say I don't suddenly think he lost talent. This years Honda was simply harder to ride consistently.
 
Kesh, you still have no grasp of what Oxley said. Let me show it to you again...try and read.

a5wytyq.jpg


"At five of the last nine dry-weather MotoGP races at the track there wasn't a single overtaking manoeuvre at the front. Not one."

Still not grasping what this means?

Troy Bayliss went flag to flag in 2006 with no one trying a single overtake on him.

Stoner did the same thing in 2008 and Lorenzo did the same thing in 2015.

Stop acting like it's some sort of freak occurrence. It's not.

What he's talking about is where the front rider takes off in the distance and by the time he's on lap 10 he's a full 8 seconds ahead of the rider in 2nd position, which is more a case of the front rider taking off like Stoner and nobody ever getting within striking distance. This was not the case at

Valencia 2015 was not like that at all. Marquez was right on his rear tire throughout the race. And has been pointed out Lorenzo was consistently capable of riding quicker lap times at will. What part of this last paragraph do you disagree with?
 
We've all seen 2015. Honda's have consistently posted faster times at a number of races. In fact the five previous races Lorenzo won it was common for the Honda to set the fastest lap. It was also common for Marquez to crash the following lap.

Honda's have also been consistently reported to be difficult to keep on pace without running wide, to avoid losing the front, to get traction on the straight due to the evil engine etc etc etc. We have debated this to death. The Honda has issues or it doesn't. Yes or no. Are you now convinced no issue, then Marquez suddenly lost his talent as you say. If yes, Honda has issues, then they have to take a risk to attempt to pass. In fact to take it further, Lorenzo won 4 races straight leading every single lap. Not one attempted overtake in 100 laps? So obviously the conspiracy must have started long ago.

Its entirely plausible Marquez was unable to attempt a reasonable pass. He even says it was in his interests to make a pass. He wanted to, couldn't. I don't suddenly doubt him just as you say I don't suddenly think he lost talent. This years Honda was simply harder to ride consistently.

True in the early stages of the season. Once Marquez got a suitable chassis and Honda ironed out the electronics he wasn't crashing anymore.

Is it "plausible" that he passing Lorenzo in the final stages was outside his comfort zone? Sure. But impossible? No.

And I'm not talking conspiracy. I am simply saying he had the pace, a well-known capacity to take calulated risks after following a rider for 98% of the race, the well set up bike and the close proximity to do so.

Again... the videos bare out the fact that MM has proven he has the capacity to pass Lorenzo at Valencia and has in fact done so. Nobody who actually has watched the video can deny it.

Lorenzo did not run away from MM. MM was on his tail the entire race. I'm not saying it's beyond the realm of possibility that MM didn't feel it was worth the risk, but will say with certainty that if the championship was on the line (for him) you can bet your ... he'd have made or attempted to make a pass in those last few laps. It's his nature as a fierce competitor.
 
Last edited:
So obviously the conspiracy must have started long ago.
.

Fantastic post. Lets face it, this debate ONLY exists because weak minded individuals are puppeting Rossi"s claim that Marquez integrity is dubious. Logical reasoning by any of us, even admitted explinations by Marc, or the reality of road racing is not the point of contention here. JP, Mike, Bird, we should know this, the debate is only about Marc's integrity, and we're not going to convince anybody that Marc was conducting himself in good faith to anyone who thinks otherwise. This is the crux of the discussion. And lets be clear, this point comes singularity from Rossi's mind.


The only other time I remember a person ever questioning a rider not willing to make a pass was Jeremy Burgess. He accused Casey Stoner's fortitude and unwillingness to attempt a pass on Rossi. I called him on it, and let him know he was full of ..... Face to face, at the Indy paddock, and in no uncertain terms. He didn't get the message at the time, and looked at me incredulously, with the facial impression that said, who the .... is this guy who would question me. Well, he later learned the message of my questioning. Then was unceremoniously thrown under the bus by the guy he thought was so superior to Stoner.
 
Last edited:
What he's talking about is where the front rider takes off in the distance and by the time he's on lap 10 he's a full 8 seconds ahead of the rider in 2nd position, which is more a case of the front rider taking off like Stoner and nobody ever getting within striking distance. This was not the case at

Valencia 2015 was not like that at all. Marquez was right on his rear tire throughout the race. And has been pointed out Lorenzo was consistently capable of riding quicker lap times at will. What part of this last paragraph do you disagree with?

No, he isn't talking about that.

YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT.

Stop projecting your idiotic position on a writer who said nothing of the sort by trying to co-opt a clear statement into supporting your own .........

1 12 Australia Troy Bayliss Ducati 30 46:55.415 2 25
2 65 Italy Loris Capirossi Ducati 30 +1.319 3 20

That was 2006 when Bayliss led flag to flag, and there is no gap of 8 seconds, so guess what, you're wrong once again.

Instead of doubling down on an already indefensible and moronic position, you'd be better off just admitting you had no idea what Oxley said. You're doing the same ........ you always do; get proven wrong, then start trying to move your position by pretending you were misunderstood, and that you really meant this instead of that.
 
True in the early stages of the season. Once Marquez got a suitable chassis and Honda ironed out the electronics he wasn't crashing anymore.

Is it "plausible" that he passing Lorenzo in the final stages was outside his comfort zone? Sure. But impossible? No.

And I'm not talking conspiracy. I am simply saying he had the pace, a well-known capacity to take calulated risks after following a rider for 98% of the race, the well set up bike and the close proximity to do so.

Again... the videos bare out the fact that MM has proven he has the capacity to pass Lorenzo at Valencia and has in fact done so. Nobody who actually has watched the video can deny it.

Lorenzo did not run away from MM. MM was on his tail the entire race. I'm not saying it's beyond the realm of possibility that MM didn't feel it was worth the risk, but will say with certainty that if the championship was on the line (for him) you can bet your ... he'd have made or attempted to make a pass in those last few laps. It's his nature as a fierce competitor.

I agree with you. In fact my initial gut instinct was something fishy going on ala is Marquez deliberately sitting behind Lorenzo not attempting to pass.

This is the nasty seed Rossi has implanted. Take Rossi's accusations away was there anything suspicious about Valencia? Not enough passes for the lead. Nope, sorry this is not admissible evidence in the court of motogp racing. In fact no passes for the lead can be proved to be the norm in a race won by Lorenzo. We conclude, to pass Lorenzo once he has seized the lead is a difficult task.

But now we must include into evidence that Rossi made accusations prior to Valencia. So there are two possibilities. Marquez went into the race a)determined to gift the win to Lorenzo, or b) Marquez went into the race to win. Are you saying you are sure it was a)? I find that surprising and totally out of character. I'm not a big Marquez fan but I would most definitely say he is one uncompromising person who I have yet to see display any particular concern for the achievement or even safety of others. Say rather than Lorenzo it was Marquez in the lead at Valencia. Do you think he would have deliberately pulled over to let Lorenzo past?

Therefore I am completely comfortable it was b), but with one most important consideration. Once Lorenzo was in front, and even though it was obvious Marquez was able to run a similar pace, I am of the opinion the one thing Marquez would have want to avoid under all circumstances would be to make a risky move taking out Lorenzo, thus gifting the title to Rossi. If that's how he raced Valencia, I am completely in agreement with him and actually applaud the young man for being able to resist all the pressure and ........ of previous weeks and simply ride a sensible race. If he keeps this attitude going I think there are plenty of championships coming up for him in the future.
 
I agree with you. In fact my initial gut instinct was something fishy going on ala is Marquez deliberately sitting behind Lorenzo not attempting to pass.

Wait, are u being sarcastic, or are u saying even the Great Birdman was for even a moment susceptible to Rossi's McCarthyist accusations that had the effect of tainting the perception of Marquez's integrity as it relates to racing? Because prior to Valencia, had you ever questioned, as you saw a race unfold, that the rider in 2nd position had any other intention (baring team orders) than the rider racing for any other purpose?
 
Wait, are u being sarcastic, or are u saying even the Great Birdman was for even a moment susceptible to Rossi's McCarthyist accusations that had the effect of tainting the perception of Marquez's integrity as it relates to racing? Because prior to Valencia, had you ever questioned, as you saw a race unfold, that the rider in 2nd position had any other intention (baring team orders) than the rider racing for any other purpose?

Yes I admit Rossi's septic ........ creeps into my subconscious. The part I'm most considering is what Kesh said, Marquez capacity to attempt a pass. He has the capacity to attempt all sorts of crazy .... on the racetrack. So why not Valencia. Everyone expected a pass.

Its taken me awhile to figure what might have been going on. Did the pressure of Rossi get to him, was Rossi in his head? The answer is no. The one thing Rossi would have hoped for was the pressure gets to Marquez, in his desperate need to clear his name, he pulls a dumb ... move on Lorenzo and takes him out. That is the very definition of caving to the Rossi mind game. To me that was in fact the most impressive race I have ever seen from Marquez, not in terms of his blinding speed or talent etc but I figured he would be easy to manipulate, or maybe was just plain dumb. This race for me showed the intelligence of the man and his ability to avoid the infamous Rossi mind ...., the immense pressure, even the fame and fortune. He has a bright future then imo.
 

Recent Discussions

Recent Discussions

Back
Top