The Untouchables

Keshav · Dec 10, 2015

propagandhi said:
Of course not. I have a set of balls and brain cells.
As the AmA junior vice prez the only thing I can say is that maybe if sepang hadn't happened then maybe 93 would've tried a marquecellissi type kamikaze move on jorge,quite possibly resulting in a dnf. Or maybe that's cause Marquez wised up a little. Marquez couldn't win valencia by all the information we have and really all I can "blame" him for is not trying something outrageously stupid.

Hey Props - please check your PM box.

Keshav · Dec 10, 2015

povol said:
says the guy who posted videos of off years to try and prove a point.Valencia is Valencia, it was just as hard to pass 9 years ago as it is today.

In what way are 2013 and 2014 "off" years? They are two years that are most relevant as the discussion centered on the plausibility of a pass by Marquez and the videos clearly demonstrate that Marquez did in fact pull off multiple passes at Valencia.

Keshav · Dec 10, 2015

povol said:
Keshav said:

By people like you.

Click to expand...

By people like 99% of the members of PS. Or are you suggesting I'm the only member here who ever speculated about the events surrounding the last 3 races of the season. Pretty much anyone with any intellectual curiousity has joined in talking about the last three races, including yourself. So what exactly are you so grouchy about?

birdman · Dec 10, 2015

Keshav said:
In the end it comes down to a simple theoretical contention that MM was capable of passing and that Dani was on fire that day at Valencia and if MM had made the pass, Dani who was consistently doing quicker lap times was close enough to pass as well if Marquez was not between them. Nobody can "prove" anything one way or the other. One can only point out the stats and the history of the riders and then come to their own conclusions. They say the best outcome of a debate like this is not to "win" but to make some progress in opening up minds to possibilities that others had not considered. That's my only stake in the game.

Opening minds to the possibility Valencia was rigged? Ah...................ok, is that not the generally accepted version of millions? In fact Marquez is already tried and convicted in Rossi court. Even the respected journos have all turned on Marquez and announced their long lived fanboys of Rossi.

Opening minds to the possibility it wasn't rigged? That's more of a challenge.

Ok debate.

Dani was on fire at Valencia? Not exactly, by definition Dani was on fire at Sepang as from lap 1 to the checkers he was in the zone, out in front and basically untouchable. At Valencia Dani says he had bike issues and didn't feel comfortable pushing. I accept his version, not just because he says it, because predominantly, but for about one half a corner, he only occupied 3rd place. Not at any time first place. Not on fire. More typical my bikes not quite right Dani.

Ok you say "on fire", that certainly adds drama. He reeled off 3 or 4 fast laps at the end. Impressive. Yet, my recollection of little fragile arm pumped Dani is he often can throw in quick laps on a clear track put lacks the stamina to keep going, often just cant make passes stick, unless his bike is perfect, like Sepang. Valencia he caught up on an clear track, as usual, then immediately once encountering Marquez he gave up, as usual. Typical Dani or is there some other possibility?

How about he was in on the Spanish conspiracy. Is that a possibility you want me to consider? Well he must of been, if he was on fire he would have quickly disposed of Marquez because Marquez was only running Lorenzo's much slower pace. So Dani thought I must let my Spanish countryman win so as to defeat Rossi.

Both Dani and Marquez must be equally guilty, yet only Marquez has been convicted. Open your mind to this possibility.

Jumkie · Dec 10, 2015

birdman said:
Open your mind to this possibility.

Brillant. How about we open our minds to the possibility that Iannone crashed on purpose to cede Rossi the position. Or he sabotaged (or someone sabotaged) Iannone at Sepang given he had just beat Rossi at PI.

I put forth on this thread the possibility that Rossi orchestrated the entire thing at Sepang to guarantee a podium, knowing that PI had just revealed the stark reality that he would be 4th (maybe even 5th if Iannone was there). He really needed those 16 points, drastic times called for drastic measures. After all, he had all the time to concoct a mind ....... plan after PI to Sepang (which if u remember, he did show up with lap charts with notes etc.). So he had to upend the apple cart and throw the dice of drama.

"Open your mind to that...." I'm stealing this line.

michaelm · Dec 10, 2015

Keshav said:
Nobody implied otherwise. Marquez's dominance and record breaking seasons in his first two seasons clearly prove that point - in my favor. Nobody based on "past results" could have predicted the results of those two seasons. MM's performance has been the anomaly that so strikingly changed the equation. Whether he can come back next year and repeat the results of his first two seasons is an unknown - but it won't surprise me if he does.

Again, you are entitled to your opinion about the end of the 2015 season , and I agree if HRC come up with a half decent bike and the michelins suit him MM may well return to his previous dominant ways. I don't understand your vehemence about Valencia 2013 and 2014, however; should Casey Stoner have won all the same races on the 2008 Ducati that he did on the 2007 bike?, even apart from the nature of both races, with MM passing JL in 2013 only after almost being forced to do so at gunpoint by Jorge, as he was entirely happy to settle for 3rd and a championship win which is what eventuated. I had forgotten there were circumstances in the 2014 race as well, which MM might well have won flag to flag as well in a completely dry race.

I am almost as passionate as Jumkie about this issue, and probably for similar reasons, in that far from the 2015 title being stolen from Rossi, I see a title, or at least the credit for a title, being stolen from Jorge, as was the case with Hayden's 2006 title and Stoner's 2007 title, except this time with Rossi's involvement and manipulation quite overt.

I repeat, I see no evidence that Rossi's results would have been other than 4th, 4th and 4th and a consequent championship win for Jorge regardless of Rossi's allegations. My view with others is that at most MM refrained from making a high risk lunge at Valencia, but if it was otherwise so what, Rossi had the winning of the championship in his own hands which he could have done by beating Jorge in those 3 races.

birdman · Dec 10, 2015

Jumkie said:
Brillant. How about we open our minds to the possibility that Iannone crashed on purpose to cede Rossi the position. Or he sabotaged (or someone sabotaged) Iannone at Sepang given he had just beat Rossi at PI.

I put forth on this thread the possibility that Rossi orchestrated the entire thing at Sepang to guarantee a podium, knowing that PI had just revealed the stark reality that he would be 4th (maybe even 5th if Iannone was there). He really needed those 16 points, do drastic times called for drastic measures. After all, he had all the time to concoct a mind ....... plan after PI to Sepang (which if u remember, he did show up with lap charts with notes etc.). So he had to upend the apple cart and throw the dice of drama.

"Open your mind to that...." I'm stealing this line.

Not only open my mind to it, I believe.

Sepang. Rossi has just watched Lorenzo blast past him, blast past Marquez, set off after Pedro. What is Rossi's most likely reaction? FUUUCCCKKKK!!!!! Panic. What does he do? He does what he always does when competitors are faster than him. He engages to slow them down. Only this time its not the Rossi that engaged Stoner for first. He's too slow to get anywhere near first. Best he can do is engage Marquez to get 3rd.

Who is really the guilty one out of all this? Marquez. No, in fact open your mind that its actually Pedro. He races Rossi hard at Aragon, harder then we have seen. He takes second. Then, the smoking gun. He is much faster than both Marquez and Lorenzo at Valencia. After cruising around for most of the race, he charges up to them, 0.7 seconds faster in one lap. Clearly, Pedro can easily win the race at this pace. he could have taken both Marquez and Lorenzo in 1/2 a lap. But what does he do? He runs Marquez wide, slows him down, gives Lorenzo some breathing space. Mission accomplished, Pedro just sits behind Marquez and does nothing more. Marquez had the pace, was going to win on the last lap. Pedro sabotaged him, ensuring Lorenzo gets the win. Smoking gun.............. guilty not the obvious one that been rammed down our throat. The real sneaky manipulative dude sniggering in the corner while the wrong man gets arrested.

Jumkie · Dec 10, 2015

birdman said:
Not only open my mind to it, I believe.

Sepang. Rossi has just watched Lorenzo blast past him, blast past Marquez, set off after Pedro. What is Rossi's most likely reaction? FUUUCCCKKKK!!!!! Panic. What does he do? He does what he always does when competitors are faster than him. He engages to slow them down. Only this time its not the Rossi that engaged Stoner for first. He's too slow to get anywhere near first. Best he can do is engage Marquez to get 3rd.

Who is really the guilty one out of all this? Marquez. No, in fact open your mind that its actually Pedro. He races Rossi hard at Aragon, harder then we have seen. He takes second. Then, the smoking gun. He is much faster than both Marquez and Lorenzo at Valencia. After cruising around for most of the race, he charges up to them, 0.7 seconds faster in one lap. Clearly, Pedro can easily win the race at this pace. he could have taken both Marquez and Lorenzo in 1/2 a lap. But what does he do? He runs Marquez wide, slows him down, gives Lorenzo some breathing space. Mission accomplished, Pedro just sits behind Marquez and does nothing more. Marquez had the pace, was going to win on the last lap. Pedro sabotaged him, ensuring Lorenzo gets the win. Smoking gun.............. guilty not the obvious one that been rammed down our throat. The real sneaky manipulative dude sniggering in the corner while the wrong man gets arrested.

I've said before, I can make the case that Iannone was the guilty one for sabotaging Rossi’s championship.

However, when Rossi engaged Marquez, the absolute thought I had was Laguna 08. I'm not kidding you, and I think I've discussed this with JP. I was there, but I've rewatched ALL the sessions of the LS08 that event many times (god knows that's the only way to get a clearer picture of event). Think back if you can with me, Stoner obliterated every practice, I .... you not, I have a memory of hearing the track announcer saying Stoner was setting lap records, then like two minutes later hearing the guy say, he just set another lap record, in practice. Rossi's only strategy was to disturb Casey because there was no way Rossi was on to win that race if he lost touch. So he raced to disturb him, to slow him down, then got desperate and brake checked him into 11. Why? Because like Sepang, Rossi wasn't going to be able to keep the faster rider behind him all race distance! (And it's why Sepang looked so desperate, even for some to declare, someone was gonna go down, of course this also came from a perspective that Marquez was the perpetrator, but was he?) I said it then and i was pummeled on the forum as a Rossi hater, etc. Today this description of the event is rather accepted by non-boppers (who let's face it think Rossi crashing out a fellow competitor was justifiable). I can remember now, but I'm fairly sure Rossi admitted as much later in reflection, that is of slowing Casey's pace as the strategy to beat him ( of course today that strategy is pure "dangerous riding" because they perceived Marquez employed it). But I believe they are wrong, and I go on record saying: I think it was Rossi slowing Marquez down! And this reality has been completed missed because of doctored PERCEPTION. Everyone considered Rossi’s motives PURE and at FACE VALUE while Marc's motives were already under scrutiny and worse, guilty as charged before the lights went out.

Its like imagine if Rossi had said before LS08 race, you just watch, Stoner will race me dirty at Laguna. Then the exchange would have been read as Stoner "letting himself be passed" just like the absurd claim that Marc was letting himself be passed or the ridiculous "he rode like a ...." assessment. Which I will and have debate anybody they are mistaken at best.

I think Rossi engaged Marquez, and the "observable facts" are such. Rossi overtook as aggressive, but its like nobody has notice that half of the two part exchange. Rossi was desperate to beat him and there is no reason why we shouldn't consider he employed the same tactic he used successfully at Laguna 08.

Now ask people if they believe this as a possibility. Most will say no. Why? Here is the ONLY reason: Because they perceive Rossi's motives as pure while Marc's motives as dubious! That is it.

But let's examine it further, was Rossi’s racing at Sepang purely for position? That is to beat Marc. They wouldn't consider that to beat Marc means to engage him and slow him down. That is, Rossi’s actions were pure, sincere, face value, and innocent, not realizing that he was employing a strategy. Contrast the perception of Marquez. His overtaking was dubious. He was not racing for position, but rather there to slow VR down.

Yet Birdman, let's look at MOTIVE. Who had the greatest motive? This is the key question.

Did Marquez, who has never been accused of thinking beyond the moment, was suddenly this mastermind hell bent on destroying Rossi's championship? Something apparently the world learned about 2 day prior? Where does his motive compare to Rossi's?

Or did Rossi have the greater motive to slow Marquez down, to beat him using this strategy, knowing Marc eventually was going to have greater pace (PI fresh in the memory); and on the line, a 10th title on the penultimate round, while in the points lead, and in the back pocket, the Wiley Fox full of experience, with Machiavellian tactics that had served him well. ANSWER THE QUESTION, who had the greatest motive to deploy this strategy?

Rossi toyed and attempt to slow Marquez down at Sepang 2015. (Not the other way around ). The only thing that needed to be manipulated was PERCEPTION. Rossi had to deploy a race ending tactic on Marc (as he did in LS08) before Marc got away, otherwise VR was facing arriving in 4th, and the title with it. Basically in Rossi's mind, it was the last lap every lap, and the title hung in the balance.

Krops, with all due respect, Marquez was not riding like a "....". Rossi was, and he had the greatest reason, motive, and experience to do it.

Keshav · Dec 10, 2015

birdman said:
Opening minds to the possibility Valencia was rigged? Ah...................ok, is that not the generally accepted version of millions? In fact Marquez is already tried and convicted in Rossi court. Even the respected journos have all turned on Marquez and announced their long lived fanboys of Rossi.

Opening minds to the possibility it wasn't rigged? That's more of a challenge.

Ok debate.

Dani was on fire at Valencia? Not exactly, by definition Dani was on fire at Sepang as from lap 1 to the checkers he was in the zone, out in front and basically untouchable. At Valencia Dani says he had bike issues and didn't feel comfortable pushing. I accept his version, not just because he says it, because predominantly, but for about one half a corner, he only occupied 3rd place. Not at any time first place. Not on fire. More typical my bikes not quite right Dani.

Ok you say "on fire", that certainly adds drama. He reeled off 3 or 4 fast laps at the end. Impressive. Yet, my recollection of little fragile arm pumped Dani is he often can throw in quick laps on a clear track put lacks the stamina to keep going, often just cant make passes stick, unless his bike is perfect, like Sepang. Valencia he caught up on an clear track, as usual, then immediately once encountering Marquez he gave up, as usual. Typical Dani or is there some other possibility?

How about he was in on the Spanish conspiracy. Is that a possibility you want me to consider? Well he must of been, if he was on fire he would have quickly disposed of Marquez because Marquez was only running Lorenzo's much slower pace. So Dani thought I must let my Spanish countryman win so as to defeat Rossi.

Both Dani and Marquez must be equally guilty, yet only Marquez has been convicted. Open your mind to this possibility.

You do know that I'm not exactly the first person to advance the idea that Marquez held back? Millions can be wrong. Look at all the people who think Donald Trump is America's savior. Probably more of them then there are who believe Marquez didn't sandbag.

Also I note that when a journo has an opinion that fits the narrative of a given fan, said journo is feted as being a respected member of the press with insights from respected sources - but when the same journo has an opinion that doesn't fit the narrative of whoever the fan supports - said journo is reviled for his lack of objectivity. You apparently believe that all journos are corrupted by their blind allegiance to Rossi - which demonstrates a lack of objectivity on your part.

So... yes Dani struggled in the earlier stages of the race - but in those last few laps - he made incredible gains and was lapping faster than Lorenzo and Marquez and was right on the tail of both of them - so no, I don't believe it's hyperbole to say that in those last few amazing laps that he "was on fire". When watching it live it looked very much like Pedrosa was going to pass Marquez. One more lap and I think he could have done it. I know... would-a, could-a, should-a. Clearly he was not going to pass Lorenzo. But he rode extremely well. Why you cloud the issue by mentioning Dani's physical shortcomings is beyond me. It's irrelevant to this particular race. He's ridden extremely well this season. He's had issues in the past yes - but as JPL has stated past results are not guarantees of future ones.

I don't buy the premise that there needs to be a "conspiracy". Why people keep advancing this straw man argument is beyond me. I don't know any reasonable person who is promoting this. So there's no reason to debate something that I never said. You are simply repeating the same things that have already been said and been refuted before. If you have something new or original to bring to the topic let me know.

Dr No · Dec 10, 2015

Good posts, Bird and Jum.
The thing that ..... me is - aside from the gloriousness that was PI2015 being overshadowed by Sepang - that those opening laps in Malaysia were ....... amazing. Felt like another race for the ages (and sadly is was, in all the wrong ways) Couldn't get enough until the complete wt.actual.f moment that soured the whole thing.

Jumkie · Dec 10, 2015

Dr No said:
Good posts, Bird and Jum.
The thing that ..... me is - aside from the gloriousness that was PI2015 being overshadowed by Sepang - that those opening laps in Malaysia were ....... amazing. Felt like another race for the ages (and sadly is was, in all the wrong ways) Couldn't get enough until the complete wt.actual.f moment that soured the whole thing.

Let me take a picture of this post. Finally your giving me a compliment? I'd figured you had taken up the MickD style of 'Gotcha Jum' which I was happy to ignore.

Agree, Sepang would have been sublime had it gone the distance. I really wish we could have seen how it all sussed out. I know I'm the most awful Rossi hater in the universe but it's not like I was in love with Marc, and believe it or not, I love spirited racing, this exchange was what we all wanted. After the two previous clashes, this had all the trappings of a battle royale, the two most sanguine riders, going toe to toe. Who would have been the victor for that final podium? God knows, but when I rewatch it I always get a sense that we were all robbed.

Dr No · Dec 10, 2015

your. you're

'Gotcha Jum'

michaelm · Dec 10, 2015

Keshav said:
You do know that I'm not exactly the first person to advance the idea that Marquez held back? Millions can be wrong. Look at all the people who think Donald Trump is America's savior. Probably more of them then there are who believe Marquez didn't sandbag.

Also I note that when a journo has an opinion that fits the narrative of a given fan, said journo is feted as being a respected member of the press with incites from respected sources - but when the same journo has an opinion that doesn't fit the narrative of whoever the fan supports - said journo is reviled for his lack of objectivity. You apparently believe that all journos are corrupted by their blind allegiance to Rossi - which is showing a lack of objectivity on your part.

I don't buy the premise that there needs to be a "conspiracy". Why people keep advancing this straw man argument is beyond me. I don't know any reasonable person who is promoting this. So there's no reason to debate something that I never said. You are simply repeating the same things that have already been said and been refuted before. If you have something new or original to bring to the topic let me know.

I agree about both journalists and former racers, they have their own biases, perhaps even more than others because they are closer to the centre of things. In this case however Matt Oxley is the guy chosen by Rossi to be his biographer, declares his allegiance to Rossi at the start of the article, and is largely pro-Rossi in the article, and you are choosing to discount a presumed statement of fact by him which he had possibly included to add some balance.

Whether or not you are alleging a conspiracy, VR is very much doing so, and you seem to be supporting his version of the events.

JPSLotus · Dec 10, 2015

Back when the piece was originally wrote, I called Oxley on his ........ for even writing the fawning section on VR. It was unnecessary and unwarranted. Still holds true even now because it was a partial apology for Rossi. Oxley was trying to play both sides.

birdman · Dec 10, 2015

Keshav said:
You do know that I'm not exactly the first person to advance the idea that Marquez held back? Millions can be wrong. Look at all the people who think Donald Trump is America's savior. Probably more of them then there are who believe Marquez didn't sandbag.

Also I note that when a journo has an opinion that fits the narrative of a given fan, said journo is feted as being a respected member of the press with incites from respected sources - but when the same journo has an opinion that doesn't fit the narrative of whoever the fan supports - said journo is reviled for his lack of objectivity. You apparently believe that all journos are corrupted by their blind allegiance to Rossi - which is showing a lack of objectivity on your part.

So... yes Dani struggled in the earlier stages of the race - but in those last few laps - he made incredible gains and was lapping faster than Lorenzo and Marquez and was right on the tail of both of them - so no, I don't believe it's hyperbole to say that in those last few amazing laps that he "was on fire". When watching it live it looked very much like Pedrosa was going to pass Marquez. One more lap and I think he could have done it. I know... would-a, could-a, should-a. Clearly he was not going to pass Lorenzo. But he rode extremely well. Why you cloud the issue by mentioning Dani's physical shortcomings is beyond me. It's irrelevant to this particular race. He's ridden extremely well this season. He's had issues in the past yes - but as JPL has stated past results are not guarantees of future ones.

I don't buy the premise that there needs to be a "conspiracy". Why people keep advancing this straw man argument is beyond me. I don't know any reasonable person who is promoting this. So there's no reason to debate something that I never said. You are simply repeating the same things that have already been said and been refuted before. If you have something new or original to bring to the topic let me know.

Ok no conspiracy, what we saw at Valencia was a fair dinkum no holds bared race where each participant finished in the order dictated by doing the best they could. No problem.

Oh wait a minute....................................Marquez held back? He sandbagged? You mean he could have actually gone faster, won the race? Oh dear. And Pedro was faster too you say, could have finished second, but he let Marquez beat him? What on earth? Would these actions have altered the championship standings? By golly, that sounds like match fixing at the least, if not conspiracy. We got a problem here folks.

How about Marquez ran the race in the way he thought gave him the best chance to win at the minimum risk to himself and his competitors. Alas it didnt work out, as Lorenzo is a strong frontrunner. Less dramatic than sandbagging, and no conspiracy.

Keshav · Dec 10, 2015

michaelm said:
I agree about both journalists and former racers, they have their own biases, perhaps even more than others because they are closer to the centre of things. In this case however Matt Oxley is the guy chosen by Rossi to be his biographer, declares his allegiance to Rossi at the start of the article, and is largely pro-Rossi in the article, and you are choosing to discount a presumed statement of fact by him which he had possibly included to add some balance.

Whether or not you are alleging a conspiracy, VR is very much doing so, and you seem to be supporting his version of the events.

Absolutely not. I can see Marquez sandbagging but Pedrosa, never. I feel like I've said it a thousand times - I am neither a fan of Rossi or Marquez. I never read the Oxley article. The only thing I've read or mentioned that was authored by him was a quote from him introduced to the discussion by JPS.

JPSLotus · Dec 10, 2015

Keshav said:
Absolutely not. I can see Marquez sandbagging but Pedrosa, never. I feel like I've said it a thousand times - I am neither a fan of Rossi or Marquez. I never read the Oxley article. The only thing I've read or mentioned that was authored by him was a quote from him introduced to the discussion by JPS.

So Mr. Integrity can't get past Marquez, but he can't get past because he isn't sandbagging.

Why can't he get past? Because MM won't let him?

Surely the possibility exists then that MM couldn't get past JL because JL wouldn't let him past by way of taking away what minuscule lines there are at that circuit, by shutting the door before it ever opened.

Dani can't get past MM because MM won't give up the position.

Yet MM can't get past JL because it's sandbagging, and it CAN'T POSSIBLY BE BECAUSE JL WON'T GIVE HIM ANY ROOM.

lol, you can't make this .... up.

Jumkie · Dec 10, 2015

JPSLotus said:
...you can't make this .... up.

I beg to differ. Plenty of .... being made up.

povol · Dec 10, 2015

Keshav said:
In what way are 2013 and 2014 "off" years? They are two years that are most relevant as the discussion centered on the plausibility of a pass by Marquez and the videos clearly demonstrate that Marquez did in fact pull off multiple passes at Valencia.

So any track that Marquez has won on in his first 2 years, are tracks he should never lose on again. In what way are 13-14 off years, answer, they are not 2015 , a year where Yamaha had the dominant bike. The years 13-14 are as irrelevant as 1945 be cause you simply cannot use previous years to determine who will win a certain race in future years. If that was the case, Rossi should still win just about every race since he has won at damn near every track on the schedule during his career. It shows a complete lackof understanding of the sport to base an debate on past years results as to where someone should finish in the present

povol · Dec 10, 2015

Keshav said:
povol said:

By people like 99% of the members of PS. Or are you suggesting I'm the only member here who ever speculated about the events surrounding the last 3 races of the season. Pretty much anyone with any intellectual curiousity has joined in talking about the last three races, including yourself. So what exactly are you so grouchy about?

Click to expand...

You are pushing the lunacy narrative that Lorenzo's title is somehow tarnished . I'm just trying to talk you off the cliff.You and the other sheeple who fell for Rossi's mindfuck have nothing , NOTHING, until you can show me a date stamped quote before Thursday the weekend of Sepang saying that there was something fishy about that race.

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