The Untouchables

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I was thinking of the episode where Fonzie can't say he was wrong, rather than the "jumped the shark" thing which has entered the vernacular, although perhaps the end of the 2015 season in its totality approaches that territory.
Jump the shark! ABSOLUTELY!

I've struggled to describe this mind boggling episode (honestly have looked at it all and marvel), using words like McCarthyism, Machiavellian, perversion, etc. As you know I can get wordy ( understatement I know) however, i read some gems that often put into words my thoughts. Its a real pleasure, as Ive always loved words. I suppose that's a better addiction than crack or meth. Its a shame Arrabi hasn't chimed in, but I told him this many years ago, I feel like I'm the guy who was watching Mozart do his thing, while it was this guy who appreciated infinitely more than Mozart himself. Birdman has been writing some real gems, Povol has been hitting it out of the park, JP is practically my keyboard. Its a pleasure to read this stuff. In the grand scheme of things, we know it's all trivial, but so is golf, video games, meth, and other useless activities, but it's what we enjoy.

Jump the shark. Exactly.
 
Again - you're being over literal. It's just an expression.

Discussing possible outcomes has for years been a part of the discussion on this forum. We all have preferences regarding what we consider good racing or what would make the most interesting outcome as per Mike's mention of "what if" Lorenzo didn't have the helmet ....-up. It's all just harmless speculation and hardly anything worth hurling insults and working up to frothing mouth hostility over. Speculation and the offering of differing opinion is about 60% of what goes on here.

Speculation?

I don't know. You were pretty adamant about it being possible that MM could have made an overtake attempt on Lorenzo, and now you're backing down calling it "harmless speculation"?

Dude this is why it's maddening to have any debate with you because you always start trying to crawfish --looked it up, crawfish is what we want, not crayfish which is something else-- your way out of a tenuous position that doesn't hold up in the crosshairs. You went so far as to argue with me that overtaking was possible at Valencia and didn't even acknowledge Oxley's statement as being true till the point kept being hammered over and over.

Now you're pretending it was all speculation?

It most certainly wasn't speculation several days ago.

Instead of just admitting you were wrong and everyone moves on, you have to belabor the entire thing by constantly arguing, and then slowly adjusting your argument so it allows you to try and weasel out, and run away from the entire thing.
 
Not pretending anything. What else could it be but speculation? There's always a bit of tilting at windmills going on at PS. Why people get so wound up over it is a mystery. We're all passionate about our opinions. Really - who here is lukewarm about their thoughts on racing? As to"wrong" that too is speculation. My speculation may be contrary to popular opinion- but that's not the same as incontrovertible evidence- which is so often the high bar that you demand.
 
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This is an insult frequently repeated by narrow minded persons with no intellectual curiosity, incapable of escaping a singular outcome in a debate that is multifaceted.

No, this is someone calling someone out who talks out of both sides of his .... Quit pretending you are the innocent victim who is not trying to advance the narrative of Lorenzo's title being tainted. Everyone can see what you are doing, its not clever.
 
This is an insult frequently repeated by narrow minded persons with no intellectual curiosity, incapable of escaping a singular outcome in a debate that is multifaceted.
Ahhh, not the first time you have heard that before, struck a nerve did it.
 
Again - you're being over literal. It's just an expression.

Discussing possible outcomes has for years been a part of the discussion on this forum. We all have preferences regarding what we consider good racing or what would make the most interesting outcome as per Mike's mention of "what if" Lorenzo didn't have the helmet ....-up. It's all just harmless speculation and hardly anything worth hurling insults and working up to frothing mouth hostility over. Speculation and the offering of differing opinion is about 60% of what goes on here.
I was actually quite strongly going for Lorenzo for the championship, but would have had no trouble acknowledging Valentino had he prevailed. The helmet issue (even if it was true and was not cover for Jorge running out of tyres) would have been his error and deficiency and no excuse, just as not being able to match Valentino in an unusual number of wet races would have been no excuse. I thought Jorge was edging towards using both as excuses at one time to be honest, but he at least showed no signs of resorting to defamation.
 
lol whatever dude.

You got caught.

You act as if you were an appointed judge. You are not. I have no reason to bow to your imagined authority to call the shots because you have no authority. There were respected, credentialed paddock regulars who thought the same as me and you don't see them backing down because some arm-chair expert proclaims himself the final authority on the subject.
 
No, this is someone calling someone out who talks out of both sides of his .... Quit pretending you are the innocent victim who is not trying to advance the narrative of Lorenzo's title being tainted. Everyone can see what you are doing, its not clever.

Pov - you need to learn how to read. If you go back a few posts you will see that I specifically said that Dani wasn't going to make it past MM because he just ran out of time. I'd said if he'd had another lap to go, I think he could have done it.

I also have said in previous posts that Lorenzo was a deserving champion.

It's not a question of Lorenzo's championship being tainted. It's about whether Marquez was behaving ethically, something you've already said you don't care about, because, as I gather, the means justify the ends, so as long as Rossi doesn't win, it doesn't matter if Marquez behaved ethically.

As far as everybody seeing what I'm doing, that's the paranoia of some, which is not my problem. I'm the least conspiracy oriented person here. Pretty much everything I say can be taken at face value. I have no agenda as I'm not a fan of Rossi's, certainly not a fan of MM and while I admire Lorenzo's skill - on a gut level - I've never felt more than "meh" about him.

I find it ironic that Lorenzo - the guy who just a few years ago was jeered at by many people on this forum for being a clown and a Rossi impersonator - is now being hailed by the same people as the conquering hero who killed the great Satan Rossi.
 
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Ahhh, not the first time you have heard that before, struck a nerve did it.

You? Struck a nerve? No. It's just that I have a general aversion to your whole knuckle-dragging lynch mob mentality.
 
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Again another strawman argument. I said if there'd been another lap. That's IF - I believe Pedrosa could have passed Lorenzo. And I never implied Pedrosa let Marquez beat him. Why do you so tirelessly insist that I argue about things I didn't say?

And since when do the fiercest competitors in the highest form of bike racing become legends and win races (let alone championships) by taking the minimum amount of risk? On what planet is that "racing"? Members on this forum who insist that Marquez was merely being conservative in his efforts are the same ones who are always praising riders who give "110%" That's what made Stoner a legend. Riding past the limits of a wildly idiosyncratic machine, continually on the edge of crashing is what made hims such a heroic figure in racing.

Hopefully - this will be the last post by you asking me to refute things I did not say. And if it's not - understand that life is just too short to waste refuting things one did not say. So if I don't reply to any more of your posts it's because you're continuing to rehash the same old stuff, which doesn't gain merit simply by virtue of volume.

Getting bogged down again.

To summarise:

You think what Rossi claims is correct. Marquez followed Lorenzo knowing, and this is the crucial point, he knew he was faster and at any time he could have have passed and won the race. But rather than do it, he chose to sit behind and refused to pass, because he hates Rossi and didnt want him to win the championship.

Forget % and risk etc etc, minor details.

I choose to believe Marquez was behind Lorenzo knowing he couldnt go any faster. You have raced, I ride bikes, you know what this statement means. You either know you can go quicker or you know you cant.

Basically, it was the same as Marquez following Rossi at Assen. Not one pass all race, waiting to the last corner, because he cant go any faster without crashing. Exact same situation, championship and hate for Rossi and Spanish conspiracy has nothing to do with it. Valencia was just a race, like any other race.

This is not a minor matter. This thing is going to affect Marquez reputation for the rest of his life. Is he a cheat? Rossi says he is. You agree. That's massive.

This directly affected who became world champion. If they could prove it, he must be banned, maybe for life. There is no proof, other than he didnt overtake. Not good enough, Rossi has for the second time made unfounded accusations. He has for the second time brought the sport and the integrity of another rider into disrepute. This time I say a fine is not enough. If it were up to me, I would demand Rossi either publicly retracts, or packs his bags and go.
 
.
I find it ironic that Lorenzo - the guy who just a few years ago was jeered at by many people on this forum for being a clown and a Rossi impersonator - is now being hailed by the same people as the conquering hero who killed the great Satan Rossi.

And you talk of "straw man".

I don't think anyone is saying that Lorenzo did anything except beat a 36 year old Rossi in the championship, in the process of which he also beat MM , the beating of whom would undoubtedly have been considered the more difficult feat pre-season. Rossi coming second with 4 race wins would have been a tremendous feat which no-one could have gainsaid had all the late season brouhaha not erupted.

The problem is instead of MM being acclaimed for his 3rd/5th title, the whole narrative has come to be about Rossi's unproven allegations concerning the last 3 races of the season; in one of those races VR gained 3 or 16 points depending on how one looks at it by deliberately cheating, as was found by the stewards and which he more or less admitted. You are supporting his narrative and accusation (with absolutely no evidence) that somehow a 3rd rider supposedly cheating at Valencia is really the issue rather than Rossi definitely cheating at Sepang or him not being fast enough in the last 3 races. I am sorry, but I fail to see how taking this apparently entrenched position makes you a martyr standing up to bullies when it is you who is making the negative case and making or agreeing with the unproveable allegations.
 
You act as if you were an appointed judge. You are not. I have no reason to bow to your imagined authority to call the shots because you have no authority. There were respected, credentialed paddock regulars who thought the same as me and you don't see them backing down because some arm-chair expert proclaims himself the final authority on the subject.

Don't even try to turn this around on me.

You got caught trying to weasel your way out of your original position.

The paddock regulars mostly were susceptible to the same thing you are susceptible to; the siren song of Valentino's .........

In any event Kesh, you try and turn everything back on people who prove you wrong, then start your self-pitying 'woe is me' posts as if you've got the weight of the world on your shoulders. Maybe that works on other forums. Not here. You should know better.
 
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Oooorsum.
Valentino's Sepang brain melt seems to have affected both sides of the kick/no-kick/dickmove divide.
Those supporting him are doing their part to poison the well.
Those opposing him are dumping it, too.

What thrall he holds over the sport.
 
Oooorsum.
Valentino's Sepang brain melt seems to have affected both sides of the kick/no-kick/dickmove divide.
Those supporting him are doing their part to poison the well.
Those opposing him are dumping it, too.

What thrall he holds over the sport.

interesting.
 
Oooorsum.
Valentino's Sepang brain melt seems to have affected both sides of the kick/no-kick/dickmove divide.
Those supporting him are doing their part to poison the well.
Those opposing him are dumping it, too.

What thrall he holds over the sport.

Except you buddy. The Great Docapocalypse has not affected fence riders.


In other news. Proof Marc sandbagged at Valencia :

'Marquez was also briefly asked about Valentino Rossi withdrawing his CAS appeal against the penalty imposed at Sepang. Marquez told the press conference he was glad the issue was closed. "It's a good decision for MotoGP," he said. "The action is closed, the season is closed. I respect his decision." He added that he hoped that the relationship between himself and Rossi could at some point become a little more normalized.' Motomatters.com
 
Getting bogged down again.

To summarise:

You think what Rossi claims is correct. Marquez followed Lorenzo knowing, and this is the crucial point, he knew he was faster and at any time he could have have passed and won the race. But rather than do it, he chose to sit behind and refused to pass, because he hates Rossi and didnt want him to win the championship.

Forget % and risk etc etc, minor details.

I choose to believe Marquez was behind Lorenzo knowing he couldnt go any faster. You have raced, I ride bikes, you know what this statement means. You either know you can go quicker or you know you cant.

Basically, it was the same as Marquez following Rossi at Assen. Not one pass all race, waiting to the last corner, because he cant go any faster without crashing. Exact same situation, championship and hate for Rossi and Spanish conspiracy has nothing to do with it. Valencia was just a race, like any other race.

This is not a minor matter. This thing is going to affect Marquez reputation for the rest of his life. Is he a cheat? Rossi says he is. You agree. That's massive.

This directly affected who became world champion. If they could prove it, he must be banned, maybe for life. There is no proof, other than he didnt overtake. Not good enough, Rossi has for the second time made unfounded accusations. He has for the second time brought the sport and the integrity of another rider into disrepute. This time I say a fine is not enough. If it were up to me, I would demand Rossi either publicly retracts, or packs his bags and go.

The only thing getting bogged down is this thread - because you continually introduce more irrelevancies - which drag it out instead of letting it die a natural death.

I don't know for a fact that MM sandbagged - but that's my considered opinion. I'm entitled to think thoughts that don't match yours.

It may or may not be a major matter to Marquez. But if it should be that - it won't be as a consequence of anything said by me or anyone else on this forum. To believe that anything said here will have a direct relationship to Marquez's career is absurdly melodramatic. This is not a spat in the hallway at Jr High. It's not "massive."

And what's all this banned for life nonsense? You're just pulling stuff out of your ....

If it were up to you. Ha ha ha ha! You act as if it were. Get a grip.

Give it a rest already.
 
Oooorsum.
Valentino's Sepang brain melt seems to have affected both sides of the kick/no-kick/dickmove divide.
Those supporting him are doing their part to poison the well.
Those opposing him are dumping it, too.

What thrall he holds over the sport.

No, No .

The well will be successfully poisoned if Rossi and his acolytes get away with imposing their narrative, based on unprovable and imo baseless allegations of malfeasance, on the 2015 season. That there would seem to be a considerable chance he/they will be successful does indeed show the hold he has on the sport.I can't think of many other sports where he wouldn't be charged with bringing the sport into disrepute for his recent behaviour.
 

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