The Untouchables

michaelm said:

And you talk of "straw man".

I don't think anyone is saying that Lorenzo did anything except beat a 36 year old Rossi in the championship, in the process of which he also beat MM , the beating of whom would undoubtedly have been considered the more difficult feat pre-season. Rossi coming second with 4 race wins would have been a tremendous feat which no-one could have gainsaid had all the late season brouhaha not erupted.

The problem is instead of MM being acclaimed for his 3rd/5th title, the whole narrative has come to be about Rossi's unproven allegations concerning the last 3 races of the season; in one of those races VR gained 3 or 16 points depending on how one looks at it by deliberately cheating, as was found by the stewards and which he more or less admitted. You are supporting his narrative and accusation (with absolutely no evidence) that somehow a 3rd rider supposedly cheating at Valencia is really the issue rather than Rossi definitely cheating at Sepang or him not being fast enough in the last 3 races. I am sorry, but I fail to see how taking this apparently entrenched position makes you a martyr standing up to bullies when it is you who is making the negative case and making or agreeing with the unproveable allegations.

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I've said nothing derogatory about Lorenzo.

Nobody can prove anything one way or the other.

I haven't read anything where Rossi made accusations about MM at Valencia. The only accusations by him that I am aware of were pertaining to PI and Sepang. So I am not in fact supporting any allegation made by Rossi. It was a personal observation.

And whatever observation I made - was done dispassionately without insults or crude mockery of those I debated.

I don't mind debating real ideas but do tire of the needless insults, especially as everyone has been so thin skinned these last 5 months and criticize me if I say anything negative, and yet the same people feel free to insult me while I'm supposed to walk on eggshells.

And since when is it a crime to have a differing opinion? Is this ....... North Korea? If folks feel that my opinion is without merit then they are free not to debate said opinion. I find myself doing that all the time. When people say things that are beyond absurd - I just bite my tongue and ignore them.

There've been so many times when I've tried to end a debate by saying: lets agree to disagree. But nobody here ever wants to do that. It's always this business of trying to dominate someone, the whole alpha male hammering away thing, or people trying to shame someone into turning their back on what they believe. What ever happened to live and let live? Whatever happened to, everybody is entitled to their opinion?

In any event everybody has had their say. Is there any merit in continuing this debate? I don't think so.

JPSLotus said:

Don't even try to turn this around on me.

You got caught trying to weasel your way out of your original position.

The paddock regulars mostly were susceptible to the same thing you are susceptible to; the siren song of Valentino's .........

In any event Kesh, you try and turn everything back on people who prove you wrong, then start your self-pitying 'woe is me' posts as if you've got the weight of the world on your shoulders. Maybe that works on other forums. Not here. You should know better.

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Should I require your wisdom regarding what to think, I'll ask you to be my Rabbi. Until such time, you ain't my Rabbi. And as such, I do not value your judgement about my person, nor do I require wisdom regarding what does or doesn't work on this forum from someone who is a relative newbie. I've seen many guys like you come and go over the years.

Keshav said:

Should I require your wisdom regarding what to think, I'll ask you to be my Rabbi. Until such time, you ain't my Rabbi. And as such, I do not value your judgement about my person, nor do I require wisdom regarding what does or doesn't work on this forum from someone who is a relative newbie. I've seen many guys like you come and go over the years.

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michaelm said:

No, No .

The well will be successfully poisoned if Rossi and his acolytes get away with imposing their narrative, based on unprovable and imo baseless allegations of malfeasance, on the 2015 season. That there would seem to be a considerable chance he/they will be successful does indeed show the hold he has on the sport.I can't think of many other sports where he wouldn't be charged with bringing the sport into disrepute for his recent behaviour.

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Dr. No is probably enjoying a nice brew. Me? I'm enjoying this thread.

Keshav said:

I've said nothing derogatory about Lorenzo.

Nobody can prove anything one way or the other.

I haven't read anything where Rossi made accusations about MM at Valencia. The only accusations by him that I am aware of were pertaining to PI and Sepang. So I am not in fact supporting any allegation made by Rossi. It was a personal observation.

And whatever observation I made - was done dispassionately without insults or crude mockery of those I debated.

I don't mind debating real ideas but do tire of the needless insults, especially as everyone has been so thin skinned these last 5 months and criticize me if I say anything negative, and yet the same people feel free to insult me while I'm supposed to walk on eggshells.

And since when is it a crime to have a differing opinion? Is this ....... North Korea? If folks feel that my opinion is without merit then they are free not to debate said opinion. I find myself doing that all the time. When people say things that are beyond absurd - I just bite my tongue and ignore them.

There've been so many times when I've tried to end a debate by saying: lets agree to disagree. But nobody here ever wants to do that. It's always this business of trying to dominate someone, the whole alpha male hammering away thing, or people trying to shame someone into turning their back on what they believe. What ever happened to live and let live? Whatever happened to, everybody is entitled to their opinion?

In any event everybody has had their say. Is there any merit in continuing this debate? I don't think so.

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As I have said, I won't agree to disagree, as I think yet another title winner who suffers from the gross character fault of not being Valentino Rossi being unfairly discredited is a fundamental issue, and it was pretty much similar unfounded criticism of Casey Stoner's 2007 title run and eventual title win which brought me to the Internet in general and this forum in particular; views on the bike which rode itself and Stoner's massive bike advantage were equally vehement and prevalent. That all proved out to be correct didn't it?

I am surprised that you as a Hayden and Stoner fan annoyed by their treatment are being persuaded by this current nonsense. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but you continue to fail to justify it, and while you continue to advance that opinion and fail to justify it I will continue to dispute you, probably quite vehemently.

I am pretty sure Valentino has claimed MM sandbagged at Valencia ; for a start he was caught on camera inviting the good Carmelo to his motor home to discuss how he had been done over.

You compound a previous straw man in this most recent post btw. I didn't accuse you of criticising Lorenzo, other than by implication in your support of Rossi's version of events. What I called straw man on was your claim concerning posters presumably including me being former Lorenzo detractors who were now acclaiming him for slaying the Rossi beast. The first is wrong in respect to me, I am an avowed Jorge fan, and the recent controversy is almost entirely in regard to Rossi's and MM's actions rather than Jorge's.

What I find really amusing is that Kesh thinks longevity on a forum is somehow an indicator of his being superior.

I mean look at the smugness involved in that statement.

Keshav said:

Should I require your wisdom regarding what to think, I'll ask you to be my Rabbi. Until such time, you ain't my Rabbi. And as such, I do not value your judgement about my person, nor do I require wisdom regarding what does or doesn't work on this forum from someone who is a relative newbie. I've seen many guys like you come and go over the years.

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So this is all you have huh Kesh?

Once your argument crashes and burns, you try to resort to personal attacks?

Remember, you were still completely wrong about your original statement that Valencia was not a one line circuit. You were wrong about the 110%/riding over the limit comment. ...., you were even wrong about MM sandbagging.

So much wrong to be had here.

You're really not doing well today.

michaelm said:

I will continue to dispute you, probably quite vehemently.

I am pretty sure Valentino has claimed MM sandbagged at Valencia ; for a start he was caught on camera inviting the good Carmelo to his motor home to discuss how he had been done over.

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Mike, Rossi said this was the first time he has seen a Honda rider help a Yamaha rider to win. He also said Honda should talk to Marc about this. Valentino was clear about who he blamed for having 'his' title snatched out of his pocket. Rossi was livid after the race, and it's when his attacks went into overdrive. Incidentally Mike, since I've been on this forum, 06, I haven't seen any threads questioning any other rider's integrity in failing to attempt a pass on a non-teammate for the lead ever. Valencia is the first of its kind as my memory serves. Why? I'm pretty sure Valentino Rossi has something to do with it.

Jumkie said:

Mike, Rossi said this was the first time he has seen a Honda rider help a Yamaha rider to win. He also said Honda should talk to Marc about this. Valentino was clear about who he blamed for having 'his' title snatched out of his pocket. Rossi was livid after the race, and it's when his attacks went into overdrive. Incidentally Mike, since I've been on this forum, 06, I haven't seen any threads questioning any other rider's integrity in failing to attempt a pass on a non-teammate for the lead ever. Valencia is the first of its kind as my memory serves. Why? I'm pretty sure Valentino Rossi has something to do with it.

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My thought as well, I am aware of no such previous accusation on this forum since I joined in 2007 nor in the 20 years I followed GP bike racing prior to then.

In fact as far as I am aware it has always been accepted that riders sometimes do try harder against a rider with whom they have a particular rivalry,

michaelm said:

My thought as well , I am aware of no such previous accusation on this forum since I joined in 2006 not in the 20 years I followed GP bike racing prior to then.

In fact as far as I am aware it has always been accepted that roders sometimes do try harder against a rider with whom they have a particular rivalry,

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I agree with you that Marc Marquez's career will be tarnish by Rossi's accusations because of the effect it's had on the perception. A buddy of mine who hadn't watched the final a few days after the event (which should give you an indication just how a casual fan he is, but likely represents thousands) said "I heard Marquez helped Lorenzo win the title." I spent 20 mins trying to set him straight with the abbreviated version. He said, "I'll watch the race when I have the time, but it already sounds fishy". I haven't followed up with him, but can you imagine how many times something similar has been repeated? Like I've said, it's utterly stunning the damage Rossi has done to this kid's career. Dorna failed here to protect his honor and their own ....... integrity. Not sure if you or Birdman said it, but Dorna should have issued a powerful statement. Saying in no uncertain terms, Rossi's accusations are NOT SUBSTANTIATED BY US THE GOVERNING BODY. Instead they ..... foot around him, Race Direction take the extraordinary position in calling him a liar! Nobody wants to call ........ on him. Nobody can I guess, just a few of us fans of the sport.

Keshav said:

The only thing getting bogged down is this thread - because you continually introduce more irrelevancies - which drag it out instead of letting it die a natural death.

I don't know for a fact that MM sandbagged - but that's my considered opinion. I'm entitled to think thoughts that don't match yours.

It may or may not be a major matter to Marquez. But if it should be that - it won't be as a consequence of anything said by me or anyone else on this forum. To believe that anything said here will have a direct relationship to Marquez's career is absurdly melodramatic. This is not a spat in the hallway at Jr High. It's not "massive."

And what's all this banned for life nonsense? You're just pulling stuff out of your ....

If it were up to you. Ha ha ha ha! You act as if it were. Get a grip.

Give it a rest already.

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Obviously its what Rossi said that is having a direct relationship to Marquez. Not only Marquez, but also his immediate family. You know, the crazy boppers parked outside ready to go all Monica Seles on his back.

Damn straight if it were up to me, sort this mess out. Second thing would be to place a call to Stoner, tell him to pack his bags as well and get his ... back to motogp pronto.

Third and perhaps most important would be to double my salary. Then Id take a nap before looking over the latest monster girl applicants.

You? I think you should just take a nap, you sound tired.

michaelm said:

No, No .

The well will be successfully poisoned if Rossi and his acolytes get away with imposing their narrative, based on unprovable and imo baseless allegations of malfeasance, on the 2015 season. That there would seem to be a considerable chance he/they will be successful does indeed show the hold he has on the sport.I can't think of many other sports where he wouldn't be charged with bringing the sport into disrepute for his recent behaviour.

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In your effort to refute me, you completely missed my point, mm. Perhaps read my post again?

You seem to be saying that VR and his acolytes should be prevented from imposing this narrative...and how will you stop it? By jumping on every opposing post on PS? The massively influential PS?
Where 99% of the yellow horde have already ...... off after having had their little tanties?

Jumkie said:

Except you buddy. The Great Docapocalypse has not affected fence riders.


In other news. Proof Marc sandbagged at Valencia :

'Marquez was also briefly asked about Valentino Rossi withdrawing his CAS appeal against the penalty imposed at Sepang. Marquez told the press conference he was glad the issue was closed. "It's a good decision for MotoGP," he said. "The action is closed, the season is closed. I respect his decision." He added that he hoped that the relationship between himself and Rossi could at some point become a little more normalized.' Motomatters.com

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?
Eh?
I'm on the fence about this?
Oh, I understand. Unless I'm frothing at the mouth in confected outrage, I'm a fence sitter?
Thank you for your role as Arbitrator of Acceptable Responses. Your tireless work is much appreciated.

Dr No said:

In your effort to refute me, you completely missed my point, mm. Perhaps read my post again?

You seem to be saying that VR and his acolytes should be prevented from imposing this narrative...and how will you stop it? By jumping on every opposing post on PS? The massively influential PS?
Where 99% of the yellow horde have already ...... off after having had their little tanties?

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As always, I partly do it because it amuses me to do so, something you should understand as an evil genius intent on world domination.

I see no harm in an argument of which I am convinced being on the internet somewhere, certainly my viewpoint is very likely much in the minority generally other than on this forum. We also know that people who are possibly influential like David Emmett do follow this forum to an extent, and I have something of a theory that journalists lazier than him do lift content from forums/fora.

I did get some satisfaction in being right about many aspects in regard to Casey Stoner, regarding whom I was often arguing against a large number of opponents, particularly in 2009 and 2010, with which I had no problem.

Of course being a sports fan in general, and particularly going to the extent of posting on a fan forum can't be dispassionately defended as at all sensible; why do you do it by the way? My answer as in the beginning of this post is pretty much the same as Mick Jagger's in a vaguely similar context: " I know it's only Rock 'n Roll but I like It"

I see! A page from your Forum Manual for Dummies, Jums? :happy:

michaelm said:

A. As I have said, I won't agree to disagree, as I think yet another title winner who suffers from the gross character fault of not being Valentino Rossi being unfairly discredited is a fundamental issue, and it was pretty much similar unfounded criticism of Casey Stoner's 2007 title run and eventual title win which brought me to the Internet in general and this forum in particular; views on the bike which rode itself and Stoner's massive bike advantage were equally vehement and prevalent. That all proved out to be correct didn't it?

I am surprised that you as a Hayden and Stoner fan annoyed by their treatment are being persuaded by this current nonsense. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but you continue to fail to justify it, and while you continue to advance that opinion and fail to justify it B. I will continue to dispute you, probably quite vehemently.

E. I am pretty sure Valentino has claimed MM sandbagged at Valencia ; for a start he was caught on camera inviting the good Carmelo to his motor home to discuss how he had been done over.

You compound a previous straw man in this most recent post btw. I didn't accuse you of criticising Lorenzo, other than by implication in your support of Rossi's version of events. D. What I called straw man on was your claim concerning posters presumably including me being former Lorenzo detractors who were now acclaiming him for slaying the Rossi beast. The first is wrong in respect to me, I am an avowed Jorge fan, and the recent controversy is almost entirely in regard to Rossi's and MM's actions rather than Jorge's.

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A. Not like you to be so bloody-minded Michael. Respectfully - I have to wonder, do you plan to verbally pound me into submission?

B. I personally don't think anyone here, not even you, have anything new to add to this topic - so I think I'll beg off. I think it's run it race as it were.

C. I am not at all persuaded by internet nonsense. I came to the conclusion as and when I was watching the race live. If anything, you will recall, I almost always agree with your take on things. I'm not a person who admires contrarians.

D. I have always held you in high regard and meant no offence to you in particular, but I do find it comical the way some people switch allegiances at will - when it conveniently fits their latest narrative.

E. Regarding what you're pretty sure of. If I were to make use of that sentence to refute anything in a debate with Mr Lotus, he would come in guns blazing, demanding absolute documented proof and he would no doubt mock me for such a watery bit of excogitation. No doubt he would accept nothing less than court affidavits to uphold this supposition.

JPSLotus said:

What I find really amusing is that Kesh thinks longevity on a forum is somehow an indicator of his being superior.

I mean look at the smugness involved in that statement.



So this is all you have huh Kesh?

Once your argument crashes and burns, you try to resort to personal attacks?

Remember, you were still completely wrong about your original statement that Valencia was not a one line circuit. You were wrong about the 110%/riding over the limit comment. ...., you were even wrong about MM sandbagging.

So much wrong to be had here.

You're really not doing well today.

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It has nothing to do with superiority. I am merely pointing out how incongruous it is for you, a relative new kid on the block, to offer to explain to me how things work around here. I wanted to avoid using the word smug.

No personal attack was made. I'm simply stating that it's unrealistic on your part to elect yourself judge and jury and expect me to kow tow to you.

In any event JP - you are repeating yourself and that's usually a bad sign indicating to me - that debating the topic per se, is over, and that the next step is the whole thread devolving into personal insults and I won't be dragged into that.

I repeat, no insult was offered. To say that "You are not my Rabbi" is an old street expression. Since I am not a practicing Jew, you should know that in this case Rabbi refers to a person (secular) who one considers to be wise, and impartial, to whom a person would go for advice on personal or business matters or for a vote of confidence in an endeavor; a person whose regard for one's self is of great import.

I just don't see you in that role.

J4rn0 said:

I see! A page from your Forum Manual for Dummies, Jums? :happy:

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Ah yes, you know it well. You wrote the book. I'm sure you'll recall the chapter titled: J4rn0's Logical Fallacies. I bought the book to suss out the ......... Its been a great read buddy. I see many of your favorite fallacies being used: appeal to sympathy, strawman, appeal to pity, deflection, appeal to authority, etc.

JPSLotus said:

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You're the first one to resort to ad hominem attacks. So noted.

Kesh, this has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with your penchant for lying.

You were the one who REFUSED to acknowledge that Valencia was a one-line circuit that results in a significant lack of overtaking more often than not in dry conditions, when the machines are evenly matched. After repeatedly showing you proof confirming this, you continued to argue in the other direction. You ignored EVERYTHING I said and didn't even bother to read something that I had to post about 5-10 times before you even commented on it.

Then within a day, you suddenly were claiming you were engaging in nothing more than speculation and refused to acknowledge you completely ignored Oxley's statements, which have been confirmed by many others out there. You said you were uh, "advancing an idea" as if it were some sort of original thought. We heard it already from the ..... noobs who all came running onto the forum because they needed to defend the Great Yellow Hype from all comers. Probably 90% of the MotoGP viewership claimed MM was helping JL. You adding to that is nothing new.

Again, you doubled down on an indefensible position, got ripped for it over the last 5 pages, and then crawfished your way into another position. Now you're playing the victim.

This is why more often than not, .... goes south around here whenever people get into a debate with you.

Debating Kesh goes like this.

1) Both sides stake their positions.
2) X tells Kesh why their position is what it is, why Kesh is wrong, and provides evidence.
3) Kesh tells them why his position is what it is, why they are wrong, and provides evidence that either has nothing to do with what is being discussed or is an isolated incident.
4) X tells Kesh to read something and to look at this evidence.
5) Kesh ignores anything contrary to what his position is and continues providing no real evidence.
6) Repeat steps 4 and 5 multiple times.
7) Kesh starts saying he was misunderstood, and that he really meant this instead of that. This happens to be a slightly modified version of whatever position X took.
8) X keeps asking Kesh to back up his original position.
9) Kesh continues modifying the position step 7 and then accuses X of personally attacking him for daring to think differently and claims everyone is out to get him. Then throws thinly veiled insults all while trying to hide behind the veneer of civility.
10) Dr. House diagnoses Kancer has struck.