Stoner 'whinges' again - Tyres

BarryMachine said:

Maybe JB was right, < 800's would be faster than 1,000's ??

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The 1000's are right there already, faster on some tracks, slower on others. They are not going to be allowed to develope the 1000's like the 800's,, so the jumps in performasnce will be small to non existent, especially if Dorna has their way.

povol said:

For those of us who were against the control tire from the get go, this was the main argument. In defense of Bridgestone, i beleive Dorna is playing a big hand in what being produced for the track. More of Dorna's desperate attempt to create artificial results. Point a finger at Capirossi as well, he has been instrumental in leading the series down this path. Im not really sure if i totally agree with Stoner on this, as late as last year, there were records being broke with race tires, thatwere set in 2008 on qualifiers. Tire chunking is inexcusable, but there is plenty of blame to go around.

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How and why are Dorna doing this and how is capi involved?

Gaz said:

Wonder what people will make of this?



Source :- http://www.superbike...Jul/120706z.htm







Do you hear a faint crackling noise? It's probably the bridges burning behind Casey Stoner.



Reigning World Champion Casey Stoner continued his withering criticism of Bridgestone after the first day of practice for the German Grand Prix on Friday at the Sachsenring, saying he doesn't trust the tire manufacturer or its rubber.



Stoner contends Bridgestone quality has deteriorated since it became the exclusive tire supplier to the premier class in 2009 after Michelin's withdrawal after the 2008 season.



"(Bridgestone) do not ever admit that there is something wrong with the tires," Stoner told Italian media. "But can they really be trusted? The reality is they are getting worse. The lap times are higher every year; it's increasingly difficult for riders to break records. Technology improves, but we are slower. It's frustrating."



Stoner also disputed Bridgestone's official findings that higher-than-expected temperatures, aggressive bike setups and the tall camber of the Assen circuit contributed to Valentino Rossi and Ben Spies losing huge chunks of their rear tires during the race.



"I still cannot say anything, but the point is that tires are defective," Stoner said. "It justifies speaking of structures, tire pressure or anything, but when you see pieces come off the rubber, there is no excuse."



Stoner also doesn't expect the MotoGP Safety Commission to intervene on behalf of riders, instead expecting the group to side with the Bridgestone company line or do nothing.



"I've completely given up talking with them," Stoner said of Bridgestone. "I've run with Bridgestone since 2007, and it is the same thing every year: never admit mistakes. The Safety Commission does not make decisions, only serves to protect the interests of some people.



"I'm leaving the next year, and I do not think things will change in the short term."

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aggressive bike setups? what the hell? these are the most aggressive bikes in the world, and should be.. im sorry but no amount of suspension clicks or triple clamp setup should ever result in chunks of your tire falling off, what a joke bridgestone.. i agree with pretty much everyone here about the single tire crap..



if you guys were in charge though.. would you bring back michelin.. and allow overnights? or disallow.. because michelin without the overnights couldnt really compete in 08, but with overnights prior to 07, there was no match..



lol remember when tech3 was on dunlops? guintoli i think and cardoso maybe?.. man how far tech3 has come

truent said:

aggressive bike setups? what the hell? these are the most aggressive bikes in the world, and should be.. im sorry but no amount of suspension clicks or triple clamp setup should ever result in chunks of your tire falling off, what a joke bridgestone.. i agree with pretty much everyone here about the single tire crap..



if you guys were in charge though.. would you bring back michelin.. and allow overnights? or disallow.. because michelin without the overnights couldnt really compete in 08, but with overnights prior to 07, there was no match..



lol remember when tech3 was on dunlops? guintoli i think and cardoso maybe?.. man how far tech3 has come

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would allow all makes of tyre and let the team choose who's rubber they use. No over nights or quali tyres to keep the cost down for poorer teams but allow the return of inters.

For the record, i was for the single tire because i felt evening out the parity in this regard was needed. I was against the way we got to the point of going to a spec tire. I also had my doubts it would be applied evenly. But i will conceded that some of u (rog) who expressed ur doubts about quality have been correct.



Btw, i have no idea why Capi's name is involved Pov. He is very new to his position, and its more than just tires.



Its my understanding that Bstones bring out specific tires for each track when they deem it necessary. For example the assymetric at Silverstone. Too much rear wear experienced for some. At Assen, the failures were much mire severe. Clearly the tires for Assen were defective.



Not addmitting any blame is unacceptable. But in their defense. At one time we complained that the tire was too good. Some suggested it might be better if the tire presented some tire management to better the racing. It looked at Qatar that the tires had done exactly that though later we learned it was a arm pump issue impeding Casey. But we also got to close races the next to rounds, again credit was given to the tires. It seems the request, prob from Dorna, to have a tire characteristic that requires tire management has been more difficult to produce in terms of tire quality. In Wsbk, the Perelli drops off as the race goes on and produces dome great late stage racing. Good for the show. I imagine Dorna have pushed similar. Thing is Bstone have been less capable if delivering. Tire wear in GP has been eratic, and last event we had outright failures. I agree competition is good, but what usually happens is we will have added another category of competitiveness, where those on the 'bad' tires will have no chance at winning. Not that its better now though, as i said in the Pre race thread that we currenly have 3 categories (factory, satellite, DuCRTs). All relegated to finish withing their category.

truent said:

aggressive bike setups? what the hell? these are the most aggressive bikes in the world, and should be.. im sorry but no amount of suspension clicks or triple clamp setup should ever result in chunks of your tire falling off, what a joke bridgestone.. i agree with pretty much everyone here about the single tire crap..



if you guys were in charge though.. would you bring back michelin.. and allow overnights? or disallow.. because michelin without the overnights couldnt really compete in 08, but with overnights prior to 07, there was no match..



lol remember when tech3 was on dunlops? guintoli i think and cardoso maybe?.. man how far tech3 has come

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Michelin only had 2 years without the sns tyres, and finished 2nd and 3rd in the championship in the first of those years. In 2008 they ended up without rossi and pedrosa on their tyres, so the riders may have had something to do with the results, although I think their tyres were fairly catastrophic at one particular race.



I think there were general problems in the corporation at the time so it is hard to know if they could have come back, but my impression at the time was that honda at least might have given them more time, with dani's midseason switch being pedrosa/puig rather than honda driven. Ducati opposed the control tyre and even offered to switch to michelins to give michelin a team to keep them in the sport, rightly thinking they would be screwed by a control tyre.



I take jumkie's point about a control tyre being pretty well by definition "fair" as long as tyres are handed out randomly which does not seem to be in question in motogp but is I gather perhaps more questionable in wsbk. What it hasn't been imo is cost-saving.



I also have some sympathy for bridgestone who as jumkie says were actually asked to change their longterm tyre technology for this year, for safety reasons in terms of more rapid warm-up but possibly also for the show in terms of late race tyre wear.

I've never been able to make my mind up about the single tire thing. On the one hand, I like the competition to be about about bikes and riders, not bikes and riders + tires. So in that sense, one tire supplier is a good thing. On the other hand, it takes away a lot of room for out-of-the box thinking (a la ducati + stoner 2007).



One thing I'm certain of, is that I don't want tires to artificially made less good than they could be. Which is what may be happening now, I fear. Up until last year, the tires were usually performing very well I think. Even Stoner used to say that they were actually too good (not normatively, but meaning that they would last a whole race). The only problem was the heating up in the early laps and frankly that problem seemed to me to be magnified some riders being overly aggressive when they should have known not to be, and a string of unusually cool (temperature wise) races.



I get the sense that now, under pressure from Dorna, Bridgestone has purposely built a lesser quality tire intented to highten the entertainment factor. That, in my opinion, should never ever happen in motorcycle racing. Not because I've some emotional attachment to tire r&d but because they are then playing with the riders lives.



By the way, I've hardly had a chance to post the past couple of weeks, but how come there is no massive outrage against Ezpeleta's claims that motogp is about enterainment rather than sport?

somebody here said that the motogp bridgestones are HANDMADE at a small factory in japan. maybe that`s the reason sometimes a few tires get destroyed or "behave" strange. there were reports from some of the riders over time about uneven or abnormal wear of certain tires. the human factor may produce small differences in fabrication and this could be a reason for the chunks wee saw at assen.

The benefit of the control tyre is that everyone has the same tyre and therefore same potential for getting their bikes performance to the ground. It is then left up to the punter to determine how much of the result is based on the bike or rider. We all know a satellite bike is designed to not beat a factory bike so a satellite rider finishing in front of a factory bike allows us to accurately applaud the satellite rider.



When tyres are open it takes the results into the back room politics and the punter is fooled into believing that a rider won because they were better when the reality is they won because they were given a tyre with more performance potential than their competitors. You can not see this by looking at the tyre, the sponsors on the side of the bike or even the team the ride rides for.



The only way back to open tyres is if manufacturers can not deny a tyre to any rider that is contracted to them. If a Michelin tyre is available to rider A then it must also be available to rider Z and if rider A is allowed to makes a request for a particular construction of tyre then rider Z must be able to as well.

What do the riders expect from a 'free' tire?

If it's down to cost then BS will make them as cheap as possible.



The tires are nowhere near where they were 4-5 years ago, heck the lap records are just now beginning to come back to the top bikes/riders compared to the 'open' tires.



If you had a tire that suited each and every rider/bike combo, THEN it would be down to the bike/rider to make the difference.

But if a tire suits one bike/rider more so than another, it is indeed a BIG advantage!

On this I agree with Casey on, he could have been more scathing last year though when the tyres were costing lives, and delivering many serious injuries. And I've been opposed to the single tyre rule in Motogp since the beginning.



It is a farcical reg, in a prototype series. Riders have different styles, different setups, different strengths. Riders should be allowed to play to their strengths. A Control tyre does not allow this, and far from creating parity, it creates a greater void, as engineering and electronics then become far more important-and he who spends the most-usually wins.



Bridgestone IMO do not have the 'feel' for Motogp, these noises were also present last year with Jorge and other claiming that BS was supplying 'old stock'. Their reasoning given for the Assen atrocities was comical to say the least



Michelin did have the feel, and they created tyres overnight to deliver to their top riders which played to their strengths. And wiped the floor with Bridgestone. Bridgestone only gained an advantage when the tyre supply reg was introduced in 2007. And it is now this single tyre reg IMO that is first and foremost preventing other manufacturers from joining the premier class......



Engineering a prototype to compete is one thing, engineering a prototype on Bridgestone tyres is madness........

As someone who was against the single supplier from day one I have to be honest and state that I have greatly enjoyed the bleatings that have occurred in a number of places regarding the tyres from some who so stridently advocated them in the first place. Whiilst I do find many of these comments quite amusing I do also have no issue as often one must first experience the results in order to determine if the direction is a good one, and we now know that a single tyre supplier is not the correct direction for this sport.



First thing for me would be to return the bike tyre supply to any tyre manufacturer who wished to sompete.



Second, ban/remove any SNS type of tyre construction



Implement limits (based on review of current usage) as to the number of tyres allocated to a team per weekend and where a rider crashes there is no additional allocation (where a faulty tyre is identified and needed to be replaced thence that tyre can be replaced without penalty to the team)



All teams can 'accumulate' an allocation of tyres from one week to the next or to testing, thus allowing teams who demonstrate good tyre management to possibly benefit from that at a later stage in the year



Allow manufacturers to work with and build/develop tyres based upon specific manufacturer and/or team feedback (ie. Yamaha tyres, Honda tyres, Ducati tyres, Gresini tyres etc). However, there is to be no collusion between riders and the tyre manufacturer so as to limit/restrict rider specific tyres (ie. no direct contact between the tyre development team and the rider aside from access to the riders datas - then the manufacturer must make the necessary interpretations)









An additional/alternate (and my personal favourite) would be to allow any manufacturer to turn up and offer their services to a team (ie. remove teams being contracted to tyre manufacturers and allow swapping from weekend to weekend if desired)







As an aside and while we are now in the 1000cc era, we should also look back and wonder just how much of the 800cc era's perceived boredom was the bikes, and how much was down to tyres as maybe, just maybe we may need to reassess.

Talpa said:

On this I agree with Casey on, he could have been more scathing last year though when the tyres were costing lives, and delivering many serious injuries. And I've been opposed to the single tyre rule in Motogp since the beginning.

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Sorry Talps but the tyres were not to blame for the deaths we have experienced recently so (IMO) to intimate that in some way the silence of the riders in 2011 contributed to deaths is (IMO again) offensive (and apologies if I have misinterpreted teh post).



Further, all riders could and should be as vocal on this matter but only one is leaving and so that one can be vocal.



As we have already seen this year (and as Cal Crutchlow himself said) the riders will not speak up in support of Casey as they need rides, he does not, which to me indicates a poor state of affairs in the larger picture and displays a massive 'master/servant' relationship. These guys are commodities made to be spat out and as I allude to in the Media thread (IMO) it is all ... about.

Gaz said:

As someone who was against the single supplier from day one I have to be honest and state that I have greatly enjoyed the bleatings that have occurred in a number of places regarding the tyres from some who so stridently advocated them in the first place. Whiilst I do find many of these comments quite amusing I do also have no issue as often one must first experience the results in order to determine if the direction is a good one, and we now know that a single tyre supplier is not the correct direction for this sport.



First thing for me would be to return the bike tyre supply to any tyre manufacturer who wished to sompete.



Second, ban/remove any SNS type of tyre construction



Implement limits (based on review of current usage) as to the number of tyres allocated to a team per weekend and where a rider crashes there is no additional allocation (where a faulty tyre is identified and needed to be replaced thence that tyre can be replaced without penalty to the team)



All teams can 'accumulate' an allocation of tyres from one week to the next or to testing, thus allowing teams who demonstrate good tyre management to possibly benefit from that at a later stage in the year



Allow manufacturers to work with and build/develop tyres based upon specific manufacturer and/or team feedback (ie. Yamaha tyres, Honda tyres, Ducati tyres, Gresini tyres etc). However, there is to be no collusion between riders and the tyre manufacturer so as to limit/restrict rider specific tyres (ie. no direct contact between the tyre development team and the rider aside from access to the riders datas - then the manufacturer must make the necessary interpretations)









An additional/alternate (and my personal favourite) would be to allow any manufacturer to turn up and offer their services to a team (ie. remove teams being contracted to tyre manufacturers and allow swapping from weekend to weekend if desired)







As an aside and while we are now in the 1000cc era, we should also look back and wonder just how much of the 800cc era's perceived boredom was the bikes, and how much was down to tyres as maybe, just maybe we may need to reassess.

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I agree with the non highlighted part. I will have to think about the highlighted part to see whether i agree or not. Interesting ideas Gaz.

Talpa said:

On this I agree with Casey on, he could have been more scathing last year though when the tyres were costing lives, and delivering many serious injuries. And I've been opposed to the single tyre rule in Motogp since the beginning.



It is a farcical reg, in a prototype series. Riders have different styles, different setups, different strengths. Riders should be allowed to play to their strengths. A Control tyre does not allow this, and far from creating parity, it creates a greater void, as engineering and electronics then become far more important-and he who spends the most-usually wins.



Bridgestone IMO do not have the 'feel' for Motogp, these noises were also present last year with Jorge and other claiming that BS was supplying 'old stock'. Their reasoning given for the Assen atrocities was comical to say the least



Michelin did have the feel, and they created tyres overnight to deliver to their top riders which played to their strengths. And wiped the floor with Bridgestone. Bridgestone only gained an advantage when the tyre supply reg was introduced in 2007. And it is now this single tyre reg IMO that is first and foremost preventing other manufacturers from joining the premier class......



Engineering a prototype to compete is one thing, engineering a prototype on Bridgestone tyres is madness........

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I agree with most of this post. Not sure BS are responsible for deaths though.

Talpa said:

On this I agree with Casey on, he could have been more scathing last year though when the tyres were costing lives, and delivering many serious injuries. And I've been opposed to the single tyre rule in Motogp since the beginning.



It is a farcical reg, in a prototype series. Riders have different styles, different setups, different strengths. Riders should be allowed to play to their strengths. A Control tyre does not allow this, and far from creating parity, it creates a greater void, as engineering and electronics then become far more important-and he who spends the most-usually wins.



Bridgestone IMO do not have the 'feel' for Motogp, these noises were also present last year with Jorge and other claiming that BS was supplying 'old stock'. Their reasoning given for the Assen atrocities was comical to say the least



Michelin did have the feel, and they created tyres overnight to deliver to their top riders which played to their strengths. And wiped the floor with Bridgestone. Bridgestone only gained an advantage when the tyre supply reg was introduced in 2007. And it is now this single tyre reg IMO that is first and foremost preventing other manufacturers from joining the premier class......



Engineering a prototype to compete is one thing, engineering a prototype on Bridgestone tyres is madness........

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I along with roger was among those who opposed the control tyre from the start for most of the reasons you give.



It had a worse result than I expected, it was obvious ducati thought they would get screwed, but I didn't expect it to have so bad an effect, and I think it contributed greatly to the demise of kawasaki and suzuki (there is talk in AMCN, who are usually well informed, about suzuki coming back next year and having a bike close to being ready to run; apparently they are thinking having developed the bike they better get it racing before dorna change the rules again, and that part at least rings true).



Part of Dorna's problem imo is that they are continually aping other series, mainly F1, and WSBK in this case where the pirelli control tyre seems to have contributed to close racing. Superbikes are production based bikes though which would be expected to be tyre tolerant being designed originally to run on production tyres, unlike motogp where prototypes can have quite different requirements as you say. Requiring them to re-engineer their bikes at great cost to fit capricious tyre changes is nonsensical, and will favour the teams with the most engineering resources anyway, honda and yamaha. Even if they did change the rules this year partly to handicap honda rather than to help the CRT bikes etc honda can just build a new chassis midseason to fix the problem, which they may already have done with some effect (we still need to see stoner vs jorge in a full dry race), and the CRT bikes would seem to be irrelevant to many in any case given the amount of discussion of them here and elsewhere. High performance tyres are also the main thing differentiating motogp from wsbk currently.



My idea would be to get people who know about bikes and bike racing to run the sport.

DISCLAIMER. Control tyre would ( he says presumingly) be different to a special tyre designed for one bike.



So......



Do Stoner's broad, negative and inflamitory comments toward Bridgestone include the rubber he was getting in 2007, or has he let spray again without thinking too hard about it ?





I agree the tyres would appear to be poor, especially at Assen. I agree that Bridestone shouldn't be believed in regards to the reasons for tyre problems and performance, especially at Assen.



I am struggling to find the Capirex connection.





Will miss watching him ride.



Hope to god he doesn't get an "expert commentator" job for broadcasts.

Correct me on the Capirex connection, but was it not reported at the start of the year that Capirex had input into the tyre requirements, design and build so as to try to meet the aims of the riders and DORNA?



Ergo, has the feedback been from Capirex?

Gaz said:

Correct me on the Capirex connection, but was it not reported at the start of the year that Capirex had input into the tyre requirements, design and build so as to try to meet the aims of the riders Rossi and DORNA?



Ergo, has the feedback been from Capirex?

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Fixed it!

Noodles Romanoff said:

DISCLAIMER. Control tyre would ( he says presumingly) be different to a special tyre designed for one bike.



So......



Do Stoner's broad, negative and inflamitory comments toward Bridgestone include the rubber he was getting in 2007, or has he let spray again without thinking too hard about it ?

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I believe he was very happy with the bridgestone tyres he had in 2007, if not with those he had subsequently on the ducati, although i don't recall any criticism of bridgestone for that. He wasn't too happy with the michelins he had/was given in 2006 and said so, mainly after he left lcr honda if I recall. He made no complaint about the tyres last year, although he did complain that other riders were going too hard too early on them. He said the new bridgestone construction for this year was no good and would be found out under racing conditions, and that the majority choice was wrong. It would seem ben spies and valentino rossi could now be added to dani pedrosa among the list of riders who agree with him, and probably nicky hayden if he was in the habit of complaining, as he can't make them last in a race more than 5 laps or so.



Your point that he complains frequently may well be valid, but where tyres are concerned there would seem to be an evolving pattern of him complaining that tyres are no good mainly when they are no good.



How on earth did nicky hayden vote for these tyres anyway? I guess the old tyres didn't work on the ducati either, so he may have thought any change was worth the risk.