Stoner says Danni can't beat him on same tires.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Oct 20 2008, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thanks for the answer (sorry that it took all that effort to get it though )

In response, I'm not sure I'd say that Stoners race results between Qatar and Donington (race after Catalunya) showed that "everyone else on the grid has caught and/or passed the electronics on the Ducati".

Stoner's results between those races were 11th Jerez, 6th Estoril, 3rd Shanghai, 16th Le Mans, 2nd Mugello, 3rd Catalunya

Rossi's results between those races were 2nd Jerez, 3rd Estoril, 1st Shanghai, 1st Le Mans, 1st Mugello, 2nd Catalunya.

Estoril Stoner's camera started flapping and jamming his steering, Jerez Stoner had a mare, much like Rossi at Assen. Le Mans Stoner had engine problems as did Melandri : LINK
Other than that a 2nd and 2 3rds don't look that shabby given the fact that Rossi had 2 2nds and a 3rd in this period.

No tyre conspiracy theory data there IMO.

That's not how it happened at all.

After a smashing victory at Qatar, Ducati inexplicably decided to reinvent the wheel for Jerez.

Why? I dunno read their press. Ducati believe they can't beat Vale without some sort of an edge. Why do you slap new major components all over the bike after winning by a country mile at Qatar? Obviously, Ducati had a major advantages neutralized between Qatar and Jerez(tires). Only a few weeks ago they said they would switch to Michelin to keep the tire war alive. Where is this desperation coming from. Ducati destroyed everyone in 2007 and at Qatar 2008. Why are they SURE that those performances cannot be duplicated (tires).

During the early part of the season there were mass recommendations and, furthermore, Bridgestone revealed they were testing rear tires obsessively. Ducati were looking for an ex GP rider to test tires for them. First it was Bayliss then Max then Barros then out of nowhere came Sete. Bridgestone ran a myriad of rear tires during the race at LeMans. The day after Stoner got a rear tire that would have handed him the race. Only a few days before the race DORNA ran the ad declaring that LeMans was the Doctor's next operation. Convenient

Why are the testing rear tires? Because all Bridgestone runners run the same spec front. Rossi and Stoner run it, and Suzuki have spent all rear trying to transition to it as well. The difference in the front specs is only the compound. If you didn't notice, Rossi's hard spec front at Malaysia looked just as spongy as the soft front he runs everywhere else. It appears that only the surface rubber changes from round to round.

In the cornerspeed era, performance of the front tire carcass is paramount because it must handle greater cornering loads than it did in the 990 days. I think all signs point to the elimination of Stoner's front tire. As a result BOTH Yamaha and Ducati were rebuilding their bikes after the Qatar race.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Oct 20 2008, 03:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I like Valentino, I really do, but he isn't as 'miles ahead' as some seem to think.

They may lap similar times Austin, so does Pedrosa, but Record history IS 'miles ahead' from one another. That is what backs up Rossi to be 'miles ahead' as some like me think. In that matter 'miles ahead' of every rider in History, except Agostini, just in few Records that matter really, and those are now within reach!

So tyres or not, with bike changes, this or that track, challenging a vast diversity of great and different styled riders, continuous years or come backs, during a decade, etc. makes our delusional minds believe it!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Oct 21 2008, 10:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's not how it happened at all.

After a smashing victory at Qatar, Ducati inexplicably decided to reinvent the wheel for Jerez.

Why? I dunno read their press. Ducati believe they can't beat Vale without some sort of an edge. Why do you slap new major components all over the bike after winning by a country mile at Qatar? Obviously, Ducati had a major advantages neutralized between Qatar and Jerez(tires). Only a few weeks ago they said they would switch to Michelin to keep the tire war alive.

Where is this desperation coming from. Ducati destroyed everyone in 2007 and at Qatar 2008. Why are they SURE that those performances cannot be duplicated (tires).

Circumstantially this makes such a good case, Michelin suck at the moment. Why not keep the tyre war alive. Really, Ducati have offered to take the grenade, it's like being out with a couple of your mates on a night on the town and you meet up with three chicks but one of them is fat. You snuggle up and say "you're beautiful" to the fat chick so your mates can score the glams. Ducati has offered to root the fat chick (or fat white guy as he is portrayed) and the guys aiming for the glams have knocked it back (very un-Australian of them)

Why?... Dorna is worried that the fat chick might go on a diet next year.

The selling point is safety, like where Dani humped a wall at 130km/h at the end of a straight where a 990 would have been faster?

I think we’ve swallowed a cannonball and it was so well greased we haven’t noticed.

If Vale were in Casey's shoes right now they would burn the Dorna Reichstag.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Oct 20 2008, 05:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No tyre conspiracy theory data there IMO.
I was reading the review that Curve posted and noticed the writer kept making a point about how this season has just drug on and on and I couldn't understand why. Now I know why. I remembered (hazily) that Stoner's performances in those rounds were not up to the high standards he had been setting. In my reluctance to google the stats, I assumed they were worse than what you have proved them to be.

I can't really argue with you as you've proven me wrong but I still believe there is some truth to the Lex Files.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 20 2008, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>They may lap similar times Austin, so does Pedrosa, but Record history IS 'miles ahead' from one another. That is what backs up Rossi to be 'miles ahead' as some like me think. In that matter 'miles ahead' of every rider in History, except Agostini, just in few Records that matter really, and those are now within reach!

So tyres or not, with bike changes, this or that track, challenging a vast diversity of great and different styled riders, continuous years or come backs, during a decade, etc. makes our delusional minds believe it!

When looking back in history, Rossi will be miles ahead of any of the men he raced against (barring Rossi-like careers from Stoner, Dovi or Lorenzo). As I write this I'm having an internal struggle of how to word it or if it should be said at all. He is, without doubt the most talented motorcycle rider I've ever witnessed and if not the greatest rider of all time, certainly the greatest of his generation and top five all time. That logic should tell me that a spec tire will only further widen the gap between Rossi and the rest.

However, judging by how Michelin have been playing favorites recently and only having Stoner as a measuring stick with the Bridgestones, part of me thinks that the gap between Rossi and the rest is not as wide as it appears to be.

Here you go Esco, this is your award. The Shane Warne "King of Spin" presentation.

If you follow civilized sport you'll understand cricket, if not just understand nobody ever in the history of the world can produce spin like him.

The comparison is a prestigious honour.

<div align='center'>5244:shane_warne.jpg]

<div align='center'>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Oct 20 2008, 11:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My intent was not to be anti-Rossi. My point was that I strongly believe that Rossi has gotten special treatment during his time with Michelin and Bridgestone. I don't think he needed it but I believe he got it.

I bring Stoner into the equation because he is the only other WC-capable rider to have ridden the 2007 spec Bridgestones. My intent was not to glorify Stoner or slag Rossi, I merely wanted to point out that when it appears that they both are on the same spec tire, Stoner appears to be able to keep pace with Rossi.

Over one year now Bridgestone has still not been able to develop a Qualifyer front tire and you suggest that in the short year Rossi has been with them he has recieved preferential treatment?
Doesn't the fact that Ducati has been Bridgestones main development team all the way up to this date suggest that if any one recive preferential treatment it must be Ducati?
On the other hand, I have no doubt they listen closely to Rossi's comments, after all who woulden't with his and JB's allmost mythical ability to improve the bike over a weekend? I'm not sure who's doing who a favor here.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Oct 21 2008, 10:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Here you go Esco, this is your award. The Shane Warne "King of Spin" presentation.

If you follow civilized sport you'll understand cricket, if not just understand nobody ever in the history of the world can produce spin like him.

The comparison is a prestigious honour.

<div align='center'>5244:shane_warne.jpg]

<div align='center'>

Hey Andy

You should create another one with Murali's pics. Will be used sooner for some other new posts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Oct 21 2008, 01:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Over one year now Bridgestone has still not been able to develop a Qualifyer front tire and you suggest that in the short year Rossi has been with them he has recieved preferential treatment?
Doesn't the fact that Ducati has been Bridgestones main development team all the way up to this date suggest that if any one recive preferential treatment it must be Ducati?
On the other hand, I have no doubt they listen closely to Rossi's comments, after all who woulden't with his and JB's allmost mythical ability to improve the bike over a weekend? I'm not sure who's doing who a favor here.
For the majority of the season Rossi and Ducati have been on the same spec tires, only made available to Suzuki and Kawasaki later on in the season. No doubt Ducati is a beneficiary of their long-standing relationship with Bridgestone. And I agree that Bridgestone has every reason to listen to what Rossi has to say and you're absolutely right that his input is a benefit to Bridgestone. But in return for Rossi's input, he gets development closer to the lines of what he asks for.

It's not a dig at Rossi, it's just pointing out that he's been in an enviable situation when it comes to tires for quite some time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Oct 21 2008, 06:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>For the majority of the season Rossi and Ducati have been on the same spec tires, only made available to Suzuki and Kawasaki later on in the season.
According to Hopper he picked the old ones himself, you know the fantastic '07 tires.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>No doubt Ducati is a beneficiary of their long-standing relationship with Bridgestone. And I agree that Bridgestone has every reason to listen to what Rossi has to say and you're absolutely right that his input is a benefit to Bridgestone. But in return for Rossi's input, he gets development closer to the lines of what he asks for.

It's not a dig at Rossi, it's just pointing out that he's been in an enviable situation when it comes to tires for quite some time.
Can't argue against that, it's they way it has been since the start of motorsport. The best drivers/riders get the best equipment. At the same time, if there ever was doubt, Rossi proved that he doesn't need the preferential treatment to win a chapionship, just as he proved it's not the bike that win.

What's sad is that you buy into Lex's ......... You seemed like a leveled guy, and not someone who buy a storry full of holes and inconsistency, even if I admit I find them entertaining from time to time. Finally, not that it does matter much anymore, Ducati did try much more than electronic adjustments before the Barcelona test. They reverted the whole bike back to '07 spec in an attempt to find out of their problems. Surly a lack of faith and development direction but far away from the tire conspiracies.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Oct 20 2008, 11:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not sure if this is supposed to be a dig at me or not. It's pretty obvious Stoner's race was primarily destroyed by lack of set up. His injury didn't make it easy to overcome either but that's racing. I said he should have had surgery after Rossi wrapped up the title.
i dont think he wants to loose a place to pedrosa..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Oct 21 2008, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>According to Hopper he picked the old ones himself, you know the fantastic '07 tires.
From what I read, he wasn't given those tires until they got the ZX-RR sorted. Considering that the ZX-RR is still a mess I would assume that Bridgestone figured there was no harm in giving Hopkins the '07s.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Oct 21 2008, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Can't argue against that, it's they way it has been since the start of motorsport. The best drivers/riders get the best equipment. At the same time, if there ever was doubt, Rossi proved that he doesn't need the preferential treatment to win a chapionship, just as he proved it's not the bike that win.
Like I said, he doesn't need any preferential treatment. It doesn't change the fact that he still gets it. Again, not a dig at Rossi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Oct 21 2008, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What's sad is that you buy into Lex's ......... You seemed like a leveled guy, and not someone who buy a storry full of holes and inconsistency, even if I admit I find them entertaining from time to time. Finally, not that it does matter much anymore, Ducati did try much more than electronic adjustments before the Barcelona test. They reverted the whole bike back to '07 spec in an attempt to find out of their problems. Surly a lack of faith and development direction but far away from the tire conspiracies.
There are a lot of holes and inconsistencies in the Lex Files but there are also a fair amount of bits that look to be not too far from the mark based on recent actions with Michelin and the single supplier switch. Unfortunately for me in this case, I based too much of my thoughts on the Lex Files without referring back to the actual results and see that my argument regarding Rossi and Bridgestone is off base.

Regardless, my point that Rossi gets preferential treatment remains. In the case of Bridgestone it is merely down that Rossi and Stoner are the two fastest men on Bridgestones so logically they will get the good stuff before Capirossi, Vermeulen and the rest. And his time with Michelin bears no proof but judging by the way things have been handled recently, I think it is fair to assume that Rossi was getting the good stuff that likely was not available to others. Like you said, the best guys get the best stuff.

I think it's noteworthy that prior to the single tyre proposition rearing its ugly head again, Ducati were making significant overtures concerning a possible switch back to Michelin. Was this because of the supposed preferential treatment towards other garages that Lex and Austin have alluded to, or did they perceive that support from Bridgestone would be too thinly spread in '09? Perhaps they anticipated great dividends from forging an alliance between burgeoning Bologna and currently beleaguered Caratoux based upon the apparent comparative advantages/benefits that a concentrated effort from the French could have conferred - with future tyre development directed principally at the GP9.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Oct 21 2008, 01:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i dont think he wants to loose a place to pedrosa..
I'd hate to think his pride over second place would be what kept him off the operating table.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Oct 22 2008, 04:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think it's noteworthy that prior to the single tyre proposition rearing its ugly head again, Ducati were making significant overtures concerning a possible switch back to Michelin. Was this because of the supposed preferential treatment towards other garages that Lex and Austin have alluded to, or did they perceive that support from Bridgestone would be too thinly spread in '09? Perhaps they anticipated great dividends from forging an alliance between burgeoning Bologna and currently beleaguered Caratoux based upon the apparent comparative advantages/benefits that a concentrated effort from the French could have conferred - with future tyre development directed principally at the GP9.
That's why there is ample room to contemplate a conspiracy theory, in a nutshell.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Oct 21 2008, 06:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think it's noteworthy that prior to the single tyre proposition rearing its ugly head again, Ducati were making significant overtures concerning a possible switch back to Michelin. Was this because of the supposed preferential treatment towards other garages that Lex and Austin have alluded to, or did they perceive that support from Bridgestone would be too thinly spread in '09? Perhaps they anticipated great dividends from forging an alliance between burgeoning Bologna and currently beleaguered Caratoux based upon the apparent comparative advantages/benefits that a concentrated effort from the French could have conferred - with future tyre development directed principally at the GP9.
I think you are absolutely correct, and I think this is also the crux of the serious part of lex's argument. Valentino rossi being somewhat hard to beat, ducati's strategy is to develop advantages over him. This is unlikely to be achieved by taking a conventional approach, whether with engineering, tyres or rider, particularly as he is not available to ride the bike. The issue is not whether rossi would be favoured, he clearly does not need any help, but whether dorna would act/has acted to take away an advantage fairly obtained by a team opposing rossi's; I had thought that gaining such advantages has up till now been the principal objective of any motogp team.

<span style="font-family:Arial<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Oct 20 2008, 11:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>...part of me thinks that the gap between Rossi and the rest is not as wide as it appears to be.

As I tried to point out Austin, it is not 'the gap' that makes the 'miles ahead' difference, this gap could be very close in a given race, or even lower for Rossi in a couple of Sundays now and then. The 'miles ahead' comes from whom Rossi has raced with, and been always competitive, constantly in the top steps. His worst MotoGP Championship since ever is third place for God's sake, and by one point to be runner up (in 2007 he had more wins than Pedrosa).

This are the riders with wins since Rossi is at 500/MotoGP: Norick Abe, Alex Barros, Troy Bayliss, Max Biaggi, Loris Capirossi, Alex Criville, Toni Elias, Sete Gibernau, Nicky Hayden, Jorge Lorenzo, Garry McCoy, Marco Melandri, Dani Pedrosa, Kenny Roberts Jr, Casey Stoner, Makoto Tamada, Tohru Ukawa and Chris Vermeulen. Some World Champions and some Great Riders too, so basically they are the ones that during the last decade Rossi has had to set his Records, while competing against them. Moreover, he has done so with different bikes, different engine sizes, different tyres, different conditions, etc. and always adapting to be at the top, on any given track, in front of any fans or Country.

So you see, I (or MotoGP for that matter) do not think any rider in the History of the Sport has been able to achieve more than him!

<span style="font-family:Arial<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/...rs+all+time.pdf
<span style="font-family:Arial<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 21 2008, 09:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As I tried to point out Austin, it is not 'the gap' that makes the 'miles ahead' difference, this gap could be very close in a given race, or even lower for Rossi in a couple of Sundays now and then. The 'miles ahead' comes from whom Rossi has raced with, and been always competitive, constantly in the top steps. His worst MotoGP Championship since ever is third place for God's sake, and by one point to be runner up (in 2007 he had more wins than Pedrosa).

This are the riders with wins since Rossi is at 500/MotoGP: Norick Abe, Alex Barros, Troy Bayliss, Max Biaggi, Loris Capirossi, Alex Criville, Toni Elias, Sete Gibernau, Nicky Hayden, Jorge Lorenzo, Garry McCoy, Marco Melandri, Dani Pedrosa, Kenny Roberts Jr, Casey Stoner, Makoto Tamada, Tohru Ukawa and Chris Vermeulen. Some World Champions and some Great Riders too, so basically they are the ones that during the last decade Rossi has had to set his Records, while competing against them. Moreover, he has done so with different bikes, different engine sizes, different tyres, different conditions, etc. and always adapting to be at the top, on any given track, in front of any fans or Country.

So you see, I (or MotoGP for that matter) do not think any rider in the History of the Sport has been able to achieve more than him!
Again, not arguing the man's pedigree. It's unrivaled in his generation. But I think that the talent pool filling MotoGP is much deeper than it has been in quite some time and I think a spec tire could potentially demonstrate just how wide or narrow the gap is between Rossi and the rest.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Oct 21 2008, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Like I said, he doesn't need any preferential treatment. It doesn't change the fact that he still gets it. Again, not a dig at Rossi.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Nothing would give me more pleasure than to see the kids who have always gotten the tires developed around them scratching their heads.

You could have fooled me
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>There are a lot of holes and inconsistencies in the Lex Files but there are also a fair amount of bits that look to be not too far from the mark based on recent actions with Michelin and the single supplier switch. Unfortunately for me in this case, I based too much of my thoughts on the Lex Files without referring back to the actual results and see that my argument regarding Rossi and Bridgestone is off base.
But of course there are bits that fits, if you bend everything around it you get a quite "plausible" storry telling allmost anything.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Regardless, my point that Rossi gets preferential treatment remains. In the case of Bridgestone it is merely down that Rossi and Stoner are the two fastest men on Bridgestones so logically they will get the good stuff before Capirossi, Vermeulen and the rest. And his time with Michelin bears no proof but judging by the way things have been handled recently, I think it is fair to assume that Rossi was getting the good stuff that likely was not available to others. Like you said, the best guys get the best stuff.

Lot's of people here seems very occupied about who gets the good bits and who doesn't. When your favorite does bad it's either becuase he doesn't have the good stuff or because he does test them and the winners magically get the new stuff that actually works from the first try and THAT is what is soooo un fair.
I have issues with a lot of that stuff and I simply don't by it. It does happen, but not by far as often as some here suggest.
For starters, why should Bridgestoen continue producing tires nobody want? They don't.
How is it that the magical '07 suddenly are the old stuff nobody wants but that Bridgestone force upon the smaller teams?
Lately Lex suggested that the magical '07s where a set of superhard fornt tires.
Of course that's ......... Stoner, as good as he is is allmost 10kg lighter than Rossi, so in general he ned softer tires. It's unclear regarding what lex ment by superhard, being compound or carcass but either way it would obviously give a lot less grip. Lex know this but choose to see around it to make his conspiracy fit.
Some here are allready convinced that any control tire situeation will be cheated upon. But anyone with even remote racing experience should know that these things are so transparent and any attempt of cheating would be discovered imediatly or alternativly involving hundreds of people, a possibilty so remotely unlikely that you could just as well could deny WW II.

Now this really should be my last comments on Lex Files, I'm so tired of the ....

From yamaka46: "I'd disagree. Having the mooted two tyre constructions and two compounds per weekend is a control tyre, not just one supplier. No one can judge how any of the riders will go next year on the 2009 Bridgestones as the tyres do not currently exist. Nor will they until the exact rules are clarified."

Yamaka you even quoted me: "As of now (negotiations continue) it is one supplier NOT control tyre." The rules do not yet exist AS OF NOW we have a single supplier NOT a rule mandated control tyre. There is NOTHING as of NOW to stop B-Stone from producing a tyre for Rossi and another for Stoner and yet another for everyone else. Single supplier not control tyre.

Babel: "Some here are allready convinced that any control tire situeation will be cheated upon. But anyone with even remote racing experience should know that these things are so transparent and any attempt of cheating would be discovered imediatly or alternativly involving hundreds of people, a possibilty so remotely unlikely that you could just as well could deny WW II." We don't have a control tyre situation, what I believe people have been voicing is their fear of a tyre monopoly - a single manufacturer who can determine the outcome of races by supplying their favourite a "custom brew". A control tyre, as you suggest, would go a long way to eliminating these fears. The best option, already posted here by someone (Andy Roo?), is random draw of tyre lots to riders.