Stoner says Danni can't beat him on same tires.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Oct 22 2008, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>From yamaka46: "I'd disagree. Having the mooted two tyre constructions and two compounds per weekend is a control tyre, not just one supplier. No one can judge how any of the riders will go next year on the 2009 Bridgestones as the tyres do not currently exist. Nor will they until the exact rules are clarified."

Yamaka you even quoted me: "As of now (negotiations continue) it is one supplier NOT control tyre." The rules do not yet exist AS OF NOW we have a single supplier NOT a rule mandated control tyre. There is NOTHING as of NOW to stop B-Stone from producing a tyre for Rossi and another for Stoner and yet another for everyone else. Single supplier not control tyre.

Babel: "Some here are allready convinced that any control tire situeation will be cheated upon. But anyone with even remote racing experience should know that these things are so transparent and any attempt of cheating would be discovered imediatly or alternativly involving hundreds of people, a possibilty so remotely unlikely that you could just as well could deny WW II." We don't have a control tyre situation, what I believe people have been voicing is their fear of a tyre monopoly - a single manufacturer who can determine the outcome of races by supplying their favourite a "custom brew". A control tyre, as you suggest, would go a long way to eliminating these fears. The best option, already posted here by someone (Andy Roo?), is random draw of tyre lots to riders.

And I share those worries regarding a one suplier, as oposed to a control tire regime. But the way it looks right now it seems like Bridgestone are negotiating with the riders and other parties involved and that the final agreement will be sort of a contract that de facto make this a control tire regime. Bridgestone make it very clear that it must equal for every one and written or not that is a contract with the riders. Breaches of that contract would give Bridgestone hell to pay within the MotoGP paddoc and massive negative PR. Everything we've seen so far suggest a control tire system.

There is no incentive for Bridgestone to favor any special rider, if any it would have to be the underdog of some sort. I do see that Dorna may have incentives but they don't have the kind of money it would take to get Bridgestone on the team, and even if they did they would have to make huge arrangements around the padoc to successfully pull something like that through, and of course the arrangements themselves make it impossible because ot the number of persons involved and the risk of leaks. So the only way I can see they pull this through is to make the tires themselves and then Ezy can take a walk in the paddoc with his inocent looking trolly and visit Rossi and other favored riders.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Oct 22 2008, 03:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And I share those worries regarding a one suplier, as oposed to a control tire regime. But the way it looks right now it seems like Bridgestone are negotiating with the riders and other parties involved and that the final agreement will be sort of a contract that de facto make this a control tire regime. Bridgestone make it very clear that it must equal for every one and written or not that is a contract with the riders. Breaches of that contract would give Bridgestone hell to pay within the MotoGP paddoc and massive negative PR. Everything we've seen so far suggest a control tire system.

There is no incentive for Bridgestone to favor any special rider, if any it would have to be the underdog of some sort. I do see that Dorna may have incentives but they don't have the kind of money it would take to get Bridgestone on the team, and even if they did they would have to make huge arrangements around the padoc to successfully pull something like that through, and of course the arrangements themselves make it impossible because ot the number of persons involved and the risk of leaks. So the only way I can see they pull this through is to make the tires themselves and then Ezy can take a walk in the paddoc with his inocent looking trolly and visit Rossi and other favored riders.

Sorry Babel, I'd like to live in a world where a handshake and my word finalizes a deal, but in the real world an unwritten contract is worth about as much as a promise from a ......... to stop looking at children. No written contract, no mandated control tyre = anything can, and will happen.

Fcuk, of course there is incentive for B-Stone to favour a certain rider. Tell me you don't believe that the global marketing machine that is known as "Rossi Inc." won't sell boatloads more tyres than... wait for it... the "underdog of some sort"... 2009 World Champion... Chris Vermeulen?!?

One more time for those who are not aware of economic theory or have chosen to ignore the history of multinational corporations (legal "persons" without a heart) - single manufacturer = monopoly; no mandated control tyre = corporate monopoly run wild; BS handshake contract = a big steamy load. Unless DORNA spells out the rules and mandates control tyre with random distribution BE AFRAID. DORNA, do the right thing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Oct 22 2008, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Unless DORNA spells out the rules and mandates control tyre with random distribution BE AFRAID. DORNA, do the right thing.

agree wholeheartedly. they(b'stone) may start out with the best of intentions but with human nature being what it is, it wont be long before the underhanded dealings start.
if there is a clearly mandated random distribution of tyres and spec regulations of these tyres, then it will be better.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Oct 21 2008, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Again, not arguing the man's pedigree. It's unrivaled in his generation. But I think that the talent pool filling MotoGP is much deeper than it has been in quite some time and I think a spec tire could potentially demonstrate just how wide or narrow the gap is between Rossi and the rest.

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialYes, but as you can see:

<span style="font-family:Arial<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%

<span style="font-family:Arial<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/xx/2008/MotoGP/MAL/riders+all+time.pdf

<span style="font-family:Arial<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialEven if, as you imply, that “the talent pool filling MotoGP is much deeper than it has been in quite some time”, the link I am quoting, is the “All Time” ‘talent pool filling’, not just the recent years one. Rossi’s plain Stats are above anybody else in The History of the Sport… ‘Miles Ahead’. Except for Agostini’s. I was adding to it, all the other ‘superb’ achievements and conditions that only Rossi has got in his name. Therefore, to a lot of fans and me, in ‘All History’ it is clear that he is ‘miles ahead’ of everybody else.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Oct 22 2008, 03:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And I share those worries regarding a one suplier, as oposed to a control tire regime. But the way it looks right now it seems like Bridgestone are negotiating with the riders and other parties involved and that the final agreement will be sort of a contract that de facto make this a control tire regime. Bridgestone make it very clear that it must equal for every one and written or not that is a contract with the riders. Breaches of that contract would give Bridgestone hell to pay within the MotoGP paddoc and massive negative PR. Everything we've seen so far suggest a control tire system.

There is no incentive for Bridgestone to favor any special rider, if any it would have to be the underdog of some sort. I do see that Dorna may have incentives but they don't have the kind of money it would take to get Bridgestone on the team, and even if they did they would have to make huge arrangements around the padoc to successfully pull something like that through, and of course the arrangements themselves make it impossible because ot the number of persons involved and the risk of leaks. So the only way I can see they pull this through is to make the tires themselves and then Ezy can take a walk in the paddoc with his inocent looking trolly and visit Rossi and other favored riders.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Oct 22 2008, 06:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Fcuk, of course there is incentive for B-Stone to favour a certain rider. Tell me you don't believe that the global marketing machine that is known as "Rossi Inc." won't sell boatloads more tyres than... wait for it... the "underdog of some sort"... 2009 World Champion... Chris Vermeulen?!?
Spot on.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 22 2008, 07:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes, but as you can see:

http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/...rs+all+time.pdf

Even if, as you imply, that “the talent pool filling MotoGP is much deeper than it has been in quite some time”, the link I am quoting, is the “All Time” ‘talent pool filling’, not just the recent years one. Rossi’s plain Stats are above anybody else in The History of the Sport… ‘Miles Ahead’. Except for Agostini’s. I was adding to it, all the other ‘superb’ achievements and conditions that only Rossi has got in his name. Therefore, to a lot of fans and me, in ‘All History’ it is clear that he is ‘miles ahead’ of everybody else.
Like I have said before, his track record is unquestionably the best on the grid, the best of his generation and could be argued the best of all time. But you can't use past statistics to attempt to prove to me that he will be 'miles ahead' of everyone in 2009. Each season brings something new.

By your logic, Nicky Hayden should not have won the WC in 2006 and Casey Stoner should not have won in 2007 because they had never been serious title threats in the premier class before.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Oct 22 2008, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>[/i]

Sorry Babel, I'd like to live in a world where a handshake and my word finalizes a deal, but in the real world an unwritten contract is worth about as much as a promise from a ......... to stop looking at children. No written contract, no mandated control tyre = anything can, and will happen.
Lots of parts of the world operate and work without written agrements or more specifically written agreements that are worth more then the paper it's written on. It operates in the best interest of both parties. If the intention were to give preferential treatment it wouldn't matter if the ruels were selfimplied or regulated. As long as they were spelled out in fairness the rules will have equal validity and power. What is of importance is who has the power, and in this case it is NOT bridgestone. If their written or gentlemans agreement with the riders where to supply everyone with the same tires it would make an uproar if they didn't. Under regulations the riders would go to dorna and demad them to follow the regulations anf give BS a fine, without it they would sit down and not race a meter without Dorna throwing BS out of the whole system. The negative consequences would be enourmous and would cause really huge drop in sales. So this is the way it's allways been, the best contracts are the ones you can't afford to breach. Written or not ar of no importance
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Fcuk, of course there is incentive for B-Stone to favour a certain rider. Tell me you don't believe that the global marketing machine that is known as "Rossi Inc." won't sell boatloads more tyres than... wait for it... the "underdog of some sort"... 2009 World Champion... Chris Vermeulen?!?
I don't see it that way. Anyone interested enough to know who Rossi is also knows there is only one tire suplier. The reason BS were against Rossi comming over was exactly because it's so much better to promote a WC with an underdog, just like they could last year. It was the tires that did it, not the rider, right?

Do you really think I would for 1 F second consider Bridgestone car tires becuase one or the other driver win F1 this year? Would I want Bridgestone tires more if my favorite wins? I'm stupid but not THAT stupid. Maybe I think to highly about people in general.
Bridgestones real marketing power in this scenario is that they develop and supply the best riders/drivers in the fastest series in the world.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Oct 22 2008, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Spot on.


Like I have said before, his track record is unquestionably the best on the grid, the best of his generation and could be argued the best of all time. But you can't use past statistics to attempt to prove to me that he will be 'miles ahead' of everyone in 2009. Each season brings something new.

By your logic, Nicky Hayden should not have won the WC in 2006 and Casey Stoner should not have won in 2007 because they had never been serious title threats in the premier class before.

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialOf course not, Rossi will not be 'miles ahead' in 2009 (Although I think he will win 2009 again)… However, in the 'All Time History' of the Sport, in and out of track he is 'miles ahead' though… I thought we were talking about past achievements when the past tense "achievED" was used.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Oct 22 2008, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't see it that way. Anyone interested enough to know who Rossi is also knows there is only one tire suplier. The reason BS were against Rossi comming over was exactly because it's so much better to promote a WC with an underdog, just like they could last year. It was the tires that did it, not the rider, right?

Do you really think I would for 1 F second consider Bridgestone car tires becuase one or the other driver win F1 this year? Would I want Bridgestone tires more if my favorite wins? I'm stupid but not THAT stupid. Maybe I think to highly about people in general.
Bridgestones real marketing power in this scenario is that they develop and supply the best riders/drivers in the fastest series in the world.
That's just the thing Babel. Sure, you or I or most on this forum know what's going on with the tires and thus could not be suckered into your average marketing of the championship. But there are a lot of casual riders who know who Valentino Rossi is but do not follow MotoGP to any extent. At least in the US, there are a lot of riders like that. And those are the type of people that could be potentially exploited by such a scheme.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 22 2008, 03:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialOf course not, Rossi will not be 'miles ahead' in 2009 (Although I think he will win 2009 again)… However, in the 'All Time History' of the Sport, in and out of track he is 'miles ahead' though… I thought we were talking about past achievements when the past tense "achievED" was used.



Sorry for the confusion, I never meant to question his past achievements.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Oct 22 2008, 05:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry for the confusion, I never meant to question his past achievements.


<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialSorry for my persistence too. We’re cool Bro!

OK Babel, my last post on this then I'll agree to disagree.

Babelfish: "Lots of parts of the world operate and work without written agrements or more specifically written agreements that are worth more then the paper it's written on. It operates in the best interest of both parties." Yes I've spent the last 15 years of my life living in those places, CentralAmerica, Africa, SE Asia, and what I've learned is the ain't no Utopia out there. In most places people will smile and shake your hand while they steal the shirt off your back. Not just with outsiders but people will screw their own neighbor or second cousin to make a profit. Maybe Europe is different but with its history of neighborly quarrels, wars and genocide I highly doubt it. That's just between people. B-Stone is a m u l t i n a t i o n a l c o r p o r a t i o n and there is no ones word to take.

Babelfish: "What is of importance is who has the power, and in this case it is NOT bridgestone." Of course the power is with B-Stone. They can dish out anything they want without a randomly distributed control tire RULE. How does a rider, or group of riders, prove that they have been dealt a dud? The tires belong to B-Stone and their techs are packing up every used carcass and takin' them back to the factory for "analysis". When Casey goes to DORNA and says "I came in second, 'cause my tires were off a bit, mate" he's gonna get "Well Mr. Moaner the tires are the same for everyone, you've just got to learn to ride them".

Babelfish: "The negative consequences would be enourmous and would cause really huge drop in sales." Relating directly to the above two statements is a well used technique of government and multinational corporations - plausible denial. A simple "No, no, no we supply everyone with the same tires, see how well (insert favorite couple of back markers here) is doing compared to 2008." repeated over and over will ensure that they will suffer no negative consequences as there really is no PROOF that they aren't.

Babelfish: "Maybe I think to highly about people in general." I'd really like to disagree, but I don't. I wouldn't trust the backroom dealing, two sides of the mouth talking jokers at DORNA or B-Stone as far as I could throw them. B-Stone didn't want to promote an underdog in '07, they would have given any of their riders any advantage they could to beat Rossi/MICHELIN, Hayden/MICHELIN, Perdrosa/MICHELIN. See the common thread? MICHELIN - it was a competition to be the best tire supplier. Casey was the best tool for their purpose - best bike/rider combo on 'Stones, easy.

Finally, when Rossi, the most recognized face in motorsports today is on your posters, adverts, video, when he attends your corporate meetings, trade shows, conferences, a little of the magic rubs off on employees, suppliers, dealers, customers. In the corporate world that ..... is a goldmine and no self respecting corporate entity can pass it up.

Alright, finished my rant, I promise...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Oct 23 2008, 02:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>OK Babel, my last post on this then I'll agree to disagree.

Babelfish: "Lots of parts of the world operate and work without written agrements or more specifically written agreements that are worth more then the paper it's written on. It operates in the best interest of both parties." Yes I've spent the last 15 years of my life living in those places, CentralAmerica, Africa, SE Asia, and what I've learned is the ain't no Utopia out there. In most places people will smile and shake your hand while they steal the shirt off your back. Not just with outsiders but people will screw their own neighbor or second cousin to make a profit. Maybe Europe is different but with its history of neighborly quarrels, wars and genocide I highly doubt it. That's just between people. B-Stone is a m u l t i n a t i o n a l c o r p o r a t i o n and there is no ones word to take.

Babelfish: "What is of importance is who has the power, and in this case it is NOT bridgestone." Of course the power is with B-Stone. They can dish out anything they want without a randomly distributed control tire RULE. How does a rider, or group of riders, prove that they have been dealt a dud? The tires belong to B-Stone and their techs are packing up every used carcass and takin' them back to the factory for "analysis". When Casey goes to DORNA and says "I came in second, 'cause my tires were off a bit, mate" he's gonna get "Well Mr. Moaner the tires are the same for everyone, you've just got to learn to ride them".

Babelfish: "The negative consequences would be enourmous and would cause really huge drop in sales." Relating directly to the above two statements is a well used technique of government and multinational corporations - plausible denial. A simple "No, no, no we supply everyone with the same tires, see how well (insert favorite couple of back markers here) is doing compared to 2008." repeated over and over will ensure that they will suffer no negative consequences as there really is no PROOF that they aren't.

Babelfish: "Maybe I think to highly about people in general." I'd really like to disagree, but I don't. I wouldn't trust the backroom dealing, two sides of the mouth talking jokers at DORNA or B-Stone as far as I could throw them. B-Stone didn't want to promote an underdog in '07, they would have given any of their riders any advantage they could to beat Rossi/MICHELIN, Hayden/MICHELIN, Perdrosa/MICHELIN. See the common thread? MICHELIN - it was a competition to be the best tire supplier. Casey was the best tool for their purpose - best bike/rider combo on 'Stones, easy.

Finally, when Rossi, the most recognized face in motorsports today is on your posters, adverts, video, when he attends your corporate meetings, trade shows, conferences, a little of the magic rubs off on employees, suppliers, dealers, customers. In the corporate world that ..... is a goldmine and no self respecting corporate entity can pass it up.

Alright, finished my rant, I promise...

Ok, I'll be short here and clearify my points:
1. My main point regarding contracts were that if one part have a strong motive for not keeping things straight and the oportunity is there contract or not doesn't mean much. In this case BS has a strong motivation for keeping things tidy and the oportunity is not at all obvious-> contract is of little importance.

2. Deniabilty is near impossible within a control tire regime. The self justise in any padock are strong, all teams watch the others closely and tires are one of the first things you look at when here is regualtions around. Supplying one or two riders with specials are not only difficult it's close to impossible. We are not talking about one tire sneaked in at race day, that wouldn't work with the bikes setup. Flasifying stamps in the rubber is not a trivial task alone, let alone distribution og those exclusives that look identical to the originals, the list goes on and it only gets more and more complicated.... Belive me, the risk of being cought would be enourmous and the downside equal. Just look at how the buzz are allready, they can't afford to .... it up.

3. I'll agree that the winner might have some marketing value based on his fame, of course not as much as when there was competition but your arguments are convincing even if I'm still not dumb enough to buy Bridgestone tires becuse my favorite win.