Stoner on a Yamaha instead of Honda???

Viper-7 said:

I don't know about everyone else,but I have never been a fan of Stoner going on a Honda

Do you think that it would have been better to see Stoner on a Yamaha??? Him and Jorge would have made a pretty solid team.

Honda have always been known to hold the Bike in higher regard than the rider. Do you think the Stoner-Honda relationship will last?????

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Well................................... I see you are very busy racking up post count! Remember its quality not quantity here at PS.



So let me ask you this. Why would Stoner go to the 2nd tier company? If the 2 tier company is as good as you seems to make it. Please tell me why they cant secure a solid sponser? Since 2000, they have had at least 5 different sponser. Don't even try to use the world economic crisis as an excuse. They have been on top since 2004, only missing the mark in 2007. For a company to have that much success, & cant secure solid sponsership, there has to be a problem with them. HRC & Repsol been together since 1995. Suzuki & Rizla from 2002 to present. Marlboro left the 2nd tier company to join Ducati since 2003. Maybe thats why there is a rumor Crutchlow will be replacing Spies next year. Spies is too expensive to keep without a major sponser. Cal will be ok with the meager salary. After all, he should be use to that comming from BSB & WSBK series.



So, to answer your question. Casey Stoner made the right move going to HRC. Go where the money is. The money leads to the technology advancement. Another point he made the right choice, has to do with the FACT Rossi cant ride the Ducati.





















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Austin said:

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Austin~ that means best development tool/rider for HRC only! Remember HRC is an engineering company.









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The way I see it, Casey has a better michanical knowledge than Rossi. This is the very reason why he can ride whatever he is put on. What Rossi has over Casey is the ability to explain what he knows to the engineers. Casey on the other hand not so much. What Casey needs is an english speaking engineer to take him to the next dimension. If JB can take an above average rider like Rossi & make him top. Just imagine what a JB & Stoner combination would be.





























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evo9 said:

Well................................... I see you are very busy racking up post count! Remember its quality not quantity here at PS.



So let me ask you this. Why would Stoner go to the 2nd tier company? If the 2 tier company is as good as you seems to make it. Please tell me why they cant secure a solid sponser? Since 2000, they have had at least 5 different sponser. Don't even try to use the world economic crisis as an excuse. They have been on top since 2004, only missing the mark in 2007. For a company to have that much success, & cant secure solid sponsership, there has to be a problem with them. HRC & Repsol been together since 1995. Suzuki & Rizla from 2002 to present. Marlboro left the 2nd tier company to join Ducati since 2003. Maybe thats why there is a rumor Crutchlow will be replacing Spies next year. Spies is too expensive to keep without a major sponser. Cal will be ok with the meager salary. After all, he should be use to that comming from BSB & WSBK series.

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Stupid post. Calling Yamaha a 2 tier company is really embarrassing. In the last seven years they have won 5 titles (2004, 2005, 2008, 2009, 2010) versus 1 each for Honda and Ducati. At the same title they also won countless other world titles (superbike, supersport, endurance, motocross... you name it) and superbike national championships as well (british, japanese, AMA...).



In MotoGP Yamaha had a good sponsorship for years with FIAT. 2011 is the first year they didn't manage a good sponsorship deal and immediately they are 2nd tier company? Whatever.

bigbang said:

Stupid post. Calling Yamaha a 2 tier company is really embarrassing. In the last seven years they have won 5 titles (2004, 2005, 2008, 2009, 2010) versus 1 each for Honda and Ducati. At the same title they also won countless other world titles (superbike, supersport, endurance, motocross... you name it) and superbike national championships as well (british, japanese, AMA...).



In MotoGP Yamaha had a good sponsorship for years with FIAT. 2011 is the first year they didn't manage a good sponsorship deal and immediately they are 2nd tier company? Whatever.

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What he's said is an exaggeration, but you have to wonder how much they would've accomplished without Rossi. They certainly wouldn't have had that Fiat sponsorship.

bigbang said:

Stupid post. Calling Yamaha a 2 tier company is really embarrassing. In the last seven years they have won 5 titles (2004, 2005, 2008, 2009, 2010) versus 1 each for Honda and Ducati. At the same title they also won countless other world titles (superbike, supersport, endurance, motocross... you name it) and superbike national championships as well (british, japanese, AMA...).



In MotoGP Yamaha had a good sponsorship for years with FIAT. 2011 is the first year they didn't manage a good sponsorship deal and immediately they are 2nd tier company? Whatever.

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FYI motorcycle GP racing existed before 2004! And for your information they ARE a 2nd tier company. One of the US bike magazine had publish a few years ago global market shares index. It shows Honda at 50%, while the other 50% was split among the other 3 Japanese brands. Also Honda is the world's largest manufacturer of internal combustion engines. For a company like yamaha to have won as much as you say. Why cant they sustain a long term sponership like the other brands? They got Fiat because of Rossi. He left and Fiat says good bye.





The Japanese manufacturer sold 9.6 million motorcycles and scooters during the fiscal year, down from the 10.1 million shipped in the previous year. Honda reported decreased sales in North America but overall sales were buoyed by gains in Asia where Honda’s smaller vehicles are popular.







Yamaha Company sold 6.96 million motorcycles in the fiscal year ending Dec. 31, 2010, a record high and an increase from the 5.84 million units sold in 2009. Most of the increase came from the Asian market where Yamaha sold 6.1 million units, compared to the 5.0 million units sold in 2009.





^ information from motorcycle.com



2010 99 Jorge LORENZO (SPA), Yamaha YZR-M1 Moto GP (800cc)

2009 46 Valentino ROSSI (ITA), Yamaha YZR-M1 Moto GP (800cc)

2008 46 Valentino ROSSI (ITA), Yamaha YZR-M1 Moto GP (800cc)



2007 27 Casey STONER (AUS), Ducati Desmosedici GP07 Moto GP (800cc)



2006 69 Nicky HAYDEN (USA), Honda RC211V Moto GP (990cc)



2005 46 Valentino ROSSI (ITA), Yamaha YZR-M1 Moto GP (990cc)

2004 46 Valentino ROSSI (ITA), Yamaha YZR-M1 Moto GP (990cc)



2003 46 Valentino ROSSI (ITA), Honda RC211V Moto GP (990cc)

2002 46 Valentino ROSSI (ITA), Honda RC211V Moto GP (990cc)

2001 46 Valentino ROSSI (ITA), Honda NSR500 GP 500



2000 2 Kenny ROBERTS Jr. (USA), Suzuki RGV500 GP 500



1999 3 Alex CRIVILLE (SPA), Honda NSR500 GP 500

1998 1 Mick DOOHAN (AUS), Honda NSR500 GP 500

1997 1 Mick DOOHAN (AUS), Honda NSR500 GP 500

1996 1 Mick DOOHAN (AUS), Honda NSR500 GP 500

1995 1 Mick DOOHAN (AUS), Honda NSR500 GP 500

1994 4 Mick DOOHAN (AUS), Honda NSR500 GP 500



1993 34 Kevin SCHWANTZ (USA), Suzuki RGV500 GP 500



1992 1 Wayne RAINEY (USA), Yamaha YZR500 GP 500

1991 1 Wayne RAINEY (USA), Yamaha YZR500 GP 500

1990 2 Wayne RAINEY (USA), Yamaha YZR500 GP 500



1989 1 Eddie LAWSON (USA), Honda NSR500 GP 500



1988 3 Eddie LAWSON (USA), Yamaha YZR500 GP 500



1987 2 Wayne GARDNER (AUS), Honda NSR500 GP 500



1986 2 Eddie LAWSON (USA), Yamaha YZR500 GP 500



1985 4 Freddie SPENCER (USA), Honda NSR500 GP 500



1984 4 Eddie LAWSON (USA), Yamaha YZR500 GP 500



1983 3 Freddie SPENCER (USA), Honda NS500 GP 500



1982 # Franco UNCINI (ITA), Suzuki RG500 GP 500

1981 # Marco LUCCHINELLI (ITA), Suzuki RG500 GP 500



1980 1 Kenny ROBERTS (USA), Yamaha YZR500 GP 500

1979 1 Kenny ROBERTS (USA), Yamaha YZR500 GP 500

1978 2 Kenny ROBERTS (USA), Yamaha YZR500 GP 500



1977 7 Barry SHEENE (GBR), Suzuki RG500 GP 500

1976 7 Barry SHEENE (GBR), Suzuki RG500 GP 500



1975 4 Giacomo AGOSTINI (ITA), Yamaha YZR500 GP 500



1974 # Phil READ (GBR), MV Agusta GP 500

1973 # Phil READ (GBR), MV Agusta GP 500

1972 # Giacomo AGOSTINI (ITA), MV Agusta GP 500

1971 # Giacomo AGOSTINI (ITA), MV Agusta GP 500

1970 # Giacomo AGOSTINI (ITA), MV Agusta GP 500

1969 # Giacomo AGOSTINI (ITA), MV Agusta GP 500

1968 # Giacomo AGOSTINI (ITA), MV Agusta GP 500

1967 # Giacomo AGOSTINI (ITA), MV Agusta GP 500

1966 # Giacomo AGOSTINI (ITA), MV Agusta GP 500

1965 # Mike HAILWOOD (GBR), MV Agusta GP 500

1964 # Mike HAILWOOD (GBR), MV Agusta GP 500

1963 # Mike HAILWOOD (GBR), MV Agusta GP 500

1962 # Mike HAILWOOD (GBR), MV Agusta GP 500

1961 # Gary HOCKING (GBR), MV Agusta GP 500

1960 # John SURTEES (GBR), MV Agusta GP 500

1959 # John SURTEES (GBR), MV Agusta GP 500

1958 # John SURTEES (GBR), MV Agusta GP 500



1957 # Libero LIBERATI (ITA), Gilera GP 500

1956 # John SURTEES (GBR), MV Agusta GP 500



1955 # Geoff DUKE (GBR), Gilera GP 500

1954 # Geoff DUKE (GBR), Gilera GP 500

1953 # Geoff DUKE (GBR), Gilera GP 500

1952 # Umberto MASETTI (ITA), Gilera GP 500



1951 # Geoff DUKE (GBR), Norton GP 500



1950 # Umberto MASETTI (ITA), Gilera GP 500



1949 # Leslie GRAHAM (GBR), AJS "Porcupine" GP 500 <-----------------------------------------------------------------> OK who's old enough here at PS to shine some light on this?? Really, I would like to know this history







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evo9 said:

FYI motorcycle GP racing existed before 2004! And for your information they ARE a 2nd tier company. One of the US bike magazine had publish a few years ago global market shares index. It shows Honda at 50%, while the other 50% was split among the other 3 Japanese brands. Also Honda is the world's largest manufacturer of internal combustion engines.

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Since Yamaha is usually second in global market shares what you are basically saying is that every other company apart from Honda is a 2nd tier company.

evo9 said:

For a company like yamaha to have won as much as you say. Why cant they sustain a long term sponership like the other brands? They got Fiat because of Rossi. He left and Fiat says good bye.

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It's an interesting question actually. Just a couple of points

1) I don't think a long term sponsorship is a goal in itself, if another sponsor pays more than why not change.

2) What you write about Fiat is right but then isn't the Repsol sponsorship Honda has at least a little bit helped by Honda having Pedrosa?

3) Remember that nowadays there are tobacco sponsorship restrictions and getting sponsors is not easy.

bigbang said:

Since Yamaha is usually second in global market shares what you are basically saying is that every other Motorcycle company apart from Honda is a 2nd tier company.

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^Corrected. Good, now you are catching on. 2nd tier as in size, not an insult.

bigbang said:

It's an interesting question actually. Just a couple of points

1) I don't think a long term sponsorship is a goal in itself, if another sponsor pays more than why not change.

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Yes & no. One sponser could promise the world then go belly up before renewal. Another can be more conservative and go the distance many times over.

bigbang said:

2) What you write about Fiat is right but then isn't the Repsol sponsorship Honda has at least a little bit helped by Honda having Pedrosa?

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YES! BUT, look at the performance of the chosen repsol spanish riders verses the non spanish. While I dont know fore sure, I bet they stayed with Honda due to their global foot print. Pretty much the same reason Stoner signed on.

bigbang said:

3) Remember that nowadays there are tobacco sponsorship restrictions and getting sponsors is not easy.

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True dat........................ But Marlboro is still in the game.























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bigbang said:

Remember that nowadays there are tobacco sponsorship restrictions and getting sponsors is not easy.

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Also down to Pedrosa, but Honda had Telefonica Movistar waiting in the wings to take over as title sponsor. The rumor goes that beginning in 2006, Pedrosa's rookie season, the Repsol Honda team was going to be Repsol Movistar Honda. Then Movistar, supposedly, tried to move in to secure full title sponsorship of the team. Repsol weren't pleased, supposedly, told Honda they were going to be full title sponsors or they walked. The rest is history. Like I said, there's no concrete evidence any of this happened. But Honda/Pedrosa are/were batting away sponsors.



And Yamaha have a more marketable and more successful Spaniard than Honda and still haven't secured anything.

J4rn0 said:

It will last, and they are going to win championships. For a rider like Stoner, Honda is a good choice because it always provides a pretty good bike without needing too much input from the rider. As Burgess said, at Honda he need not worry about the bike, but just concentrate on winning races. Honda will always be good enough for Casey. Given his capacity to ride whatever he's given at the limit, that's a marriage made in heaven.

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Thread could have ended after this post. Well said J4rn0.

J4rn0 said:

If that was true, Ducati would be the best bike by now -- unless Preziosi & C. are a bunch of idiots of course.

I think it's true that Stoner can take any bike to the limit so he should logically be a great data collection tool, but it's also true that any development made on the basis of his data is likely to be be usable by him only. His style is probably just too peculiar, there is no other rider who can replicate it. It will be interesting to see what happens at Honda with the development of the new 1000cc.

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Barry referred to Stoner as the best development tool. Not the best developer which I think you got but others did not. I think he means that because Stoner takes it to the limit regardless of setup etc the engineers can sit back and analyse what the outcomes are. The opposite is a rider who only takes it to the limit when they are comfortable which probably leaves the engineers with little raw data to work with up until that point and therefore rely on the feedback from the rider. I think Barry's point is a fair one.



I agree with you that Stoner's style is probably too different to all the other riders to be useful as a base style to work with. This dates back to his first season on Ducati when he asked for a set up that was way off where the standard settings were. Luckily for Ducati they obliged and the rest is history. I actually think that other riders will develop the base settings for the next RCV. From there Honda will just make sure that they have options that allow Stoner to be Stoner!



I am beginning to think that Prezozi is less of a genius then we have all been lead to believe. After all he has lead the direction of the Ducati and the team and the output is clearly a piece of crap. On top of that he failed to utilise Stoner and the other riders as a development tool over the past 4 years. Yamaha had Fuzawara (spelling???) leading the development of the bike and the team and he used all the tools at his disposal and as all great leaders do gave great respect to team members i.e Rossi/Burgess/Team. It looks to me that Ducati are expecting Rossi to lead the development of the bike and the team which is far to much for any rider to do even if they have the capabilities that Rossi does. Honda came close to making this same mistake of putting the rider and manager at the centre of development and team leadership and lost their way. I do not expect them to make this mistake again.

Mental Anarchist said:

Yamaha had Fuzawara (spelling???)

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Furusawa

Mental Anarchist said:

I am beginning to think that Prezozi is less of a genius then we have all been lead to believe. After all he has lead the direction of the Ducati and the team and the output is clearly a piece of crap. On top of that he failed to utilise Stoner and the other riders as a development tool over the past 4 years. Yamaha had Fuzawara (spelling???) leading the development of the bike and the team and he used all the tools at his disposal and as all great leaders do gave great respect to team members i.e Rossi/Burgess/Team. It looks to me that Ducati are expecting Rossi to lead the development of the bike and the team which is far to much for any rider to do even if they have the capabilities that Rossi does. Honda came close to making this same mistake of putting the rider and manager at the centre of development and team leadership and lost their way. I do not expect them to make this mistake again.

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Preziosi said he loved Stoner "because he rides the bike like I designed it to be ridden". Preziosi built the fastest bike possible, which works well right at the very limit, but nowhere else. Stoner could ride like that, nobody else could. The only time they lost their way was with the front end, a problem they have never managed to solve satisfactorily.



So I wouldn't say that the bike is a piece of crap, I'd say the design philosophy was valid, but erroneous. Ducati tried to build a bike that was as fast as possible, then fix the problems with it. Yamaha always tried to build the best-handling and most manageable bike possible and make it faster. The Yamaha gives the rider more tools to work with, whereas the Ducati is a sledgehammer, and you just have to try and figure out a way to make it work in different situations without taking yourself out with it.

Mental Anarchist said:

Barry referred to Stoner as the best development tool. Not the best developer which I think you got but others did not. I think he means that because Stoner takes it to the limit regardless of setup etc the engineers can sit back and analyse what the outcomes are. The opposite is a rider who only takes it to the limit when they are comfortable which probably leaves the engineers with little raw data to work with up until that point and therefore rely on the feedback from the rider.

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Bang on.



I also think Honda needed Stoner because Pedro and Dovi needed an eye opener. Honda must have believed that they had things better than they looked but their riders were not showing the bike as it was. The whole hiring Stoner was a win/win situation for Honda, ie. if Stoner shows up the other riders it not longer looks like the bike is crap and, the other riders get a "boot up the a..." and begin to try harder ( this seems to be what is happening and is really the best possible outcome )



I also agree on the Preziosi thing, I think he gets treated a bit "preciously" at Ducati which may not be very productive in the end.

bigbang said:

Furusawa

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Thanks. As I get older my memory and my spelling is becoming atrocious.

Kropotkin said:

Preziosi said he loved Stoner "because he rides the bike like I designed it to be ridden". Preziosi built the fastest bike possible, which works well right at the very limit, but nowhere else. Stoner could ride like that, nobody else could. The only time they lost their way was with the front end, a problem they have never managed to solve satisfactorily.



So I wouldn't say that the bike is a piece of crap, I'd say the design philosophy was valid, but erroneous. Ducati tried to build a bike that was as fast as possible, then fix the problems with it. Yamaha always tried to build the best-handling and most manageable bike possible and make it faster. The Yamaha gives the rider more tools to work with, whereas the Ducati is a sledgehammer, and you just have to try and figure out a way to make it work in different situations without taking yourself out with it.

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I'll give you that because you are a word-smith and I am not!



I agree with your very eloquent and concise summary of the 2 different approaches of Yamaha and Ducati.

BarryMachine said:

Bang on.



I also think Honda needed Stoner because Pedro and Dovi needed an eye opener. Honda must have believed that they had things better than they looked but their riders were not showing the bike as it was. The whole hiring Stoner was a win/win situation for Honda, ie. if Stoner shows up the other riders it not longer looks like the bike is crap and, the other riders get a "boot up the a..." and begin to try harder ( this seems to be what is happening and is really the best possible outcome )



I also agree on the Preziosi thing, I think he gets treated a bit "preciously" at Ducati which may not be very productive in the end.

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This is exactly my view as well.

J4rn0 said:

If that was true, Ducati would be the best bike by now -- unless Preziosi & C. are a bunch of idiots of course.

I think it's true that Stoner can take any bike to the limit so he should logically be a great data collection tool, but it's also true that any development made on the basis of his data is likely to be be usable by him only. His style is probably just too peculiar, there is no other rider who can replicate it. It will be interesting to see what happens at Honda with the development of the new 1000cc.

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This bit doesn't gel, and I don't understand at all where your logic comes from ?



If Stoner can get on any bike and win, which he appears to be doing ATM, and others can't do that eg. Rossi and his change to Ducati, then surely Stoner is the more "generic rider" and as such one would assume any bike designed to be ridden fast by him should be a fast bike.



Mind you I think all this talk of "best developer" is a load of hoohickey that is just another grab at some leftover cred. for Rossi to ctry and claim some possible cred for even Lorenzo's WC . Its a ridiculous point to propose that any rider is out there racing and developing a bike so his competitor or even team mate can be as fast as he. Why do all the riders have "their settings" otherwise?



But nonetheless it is looking like Stoner is a better "developer" than Rossi as well. ie when Stoner went to Ducati it suddenly became the fastest bike out there, when Rossi went to Duc. it is apparently now the slowest beast on the grid

J4rn0 said:

It will last, and they are going to win championships. For a rider like Stoner, Honda is a good choice because it always provides a pretty good bike without needing too much input from the rider. As Burgess said, at Honda he need not worry about the bike, but just concentrate on winning races. Honda will always be good enough for Casey. Given his capacity to ride whatever he's given at the limit, that's a marriage made in heaven.

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I agree totally - Honda is absolutely the right bike for Stoner - it's got grunt - doesn't handle as perfectly as the Yamaha - Stoner's a very physical rider - he can cope with these minor handling "deficiencies" and will win races on the Honda



Despite Jerez - there's still a lot more races to decide - I see him as 2011 Nr 1

BarryMachine said:

Bang on.



I also think Honda needed Stoner because Pedro and Dovi needed an eye opener. Honda must have believed that they had things better than they looked but their riders were not showing the bike as it was. The whole hiring Stoner was a win/win situation for Honda, ie. if Stoner shows up the other riders it not longer looks like the bike is crap and, the other riders get a "boot up the a..." and begin to try harder ( this seems to be what is happening and is really the best possible outcome )

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How does Pedrosa need an eye opener? Let's examine the facts. In 2007 the bike just wasn't good enough. 2008 Pedrosa was leading the championship till he crashed out from the lead in Germany and injured himself. Last year he was the only rider who put a fight to Lorenzo for the championship but got injured in Japan due to a mechanical failure. Rather it seems to me that Honda improved the bike considerably from 2009 to 2010 and made a further step forward in 2011 and now they are infront.



Stoner is a great rider but one can easily say that if Stoner pushes Pedrosa to go faster than the reverse is also true. After all Pedrosa is quicker than all team-mates Casey had (Capirossi, Melandri, Hayden etc.)

Austin said:

Also down to Pedrosa, but Honda had Telefonica Movistar waiting in the wings to take over as title sponsor. The rumor goes that beginning in 2006, Pedrosa's rookie season, the Repsol Honda team was going to be Repsol Movistar Honda. Then Movistar, supposedly, tried to move in to secure full title sponsorship of the team. Repsol weren't pleased, supposedly, told Honda they were going to be full title sponsors or they walked. The rest is history. Like I said, there's no concrete evidence any of this happened. But Honda/Pedrosa are/were batting away sponsors.



And Yamaha have a more marketable and more successful Spaniard than Honda and still haven't secured anything.

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Which leads me to believe its them yamaha that is the problem with the sponsers.



















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evo9 said:

Well................................... I see you are very busy racking up post count! Remember its quality not quantity here at PS.

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Really, we needed a thread for this? This question could have been asked on any thread already raging, and it would have been buried a long time ago (as it should have been).



Viper, just stick to: BBC and Steve Perish suck. Other than that, just ask you questions on a thread where you think it will fit (which is basically any of them).



....... thread clutter.

evo9 said:

Which leads me to believe its them yamaha that is the problem with the sponsers.

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Always been in agreement with that. I'd imagine it's only a matter of time before they find one. They have two very marketable riders, one in a very motorcycle crazy market and the other in a very big market. It's only a matter of time before someone gets wise and signs up.

Jumkie said:

Really, we needed a thread for this? This question could have been asked on any thread already raging, and it would have been buried a long time ago (as it should have been).



Viper, just stick to: BBC and Steve Perish suck. Other than that, just ask you questions on a thread where you think it will fit (which is basically any of them).



....... thread clutter.

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Tough guy Jumkie... http://www.powerslide.net/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif

Austin said:

Tough guy Jumkie... http://www.powerslide.net/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif

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Hahaha. Yeah yeah. I know.



Ok, what was the question? Oh yeah, Yamaha, the 2nd tier co. and Stoner? Short answer: Casey would have killed there too. What about Stoner has not been understood? Here is a hint: FAST!





I'm off to figure out who is Valentino Rossi. I've heard of him, but I'm starting to think I just imagined it.