Stoner is better than Rossi

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Noodlerizer @ Mar 11 2008, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>For the simple fact that he can do everything that Rossi does to win races, but Stoner does not make one single mistake. His Qatar win was flawless. When Rossi was dominating he would still make a lot of mistakes i.e. he would run wide or make a braking mistake, but he was very good on correcting those mistakes, Stoner has proved himself by show talent on the rider side of things, not making mistakes. Electronics can't do much for that. I know we call pedrosa pedrobot, but Stoner is the real machine!

I suppose the long and short of this thread to decide who is the better rider comes down to who has the most points on the board. At present, Stoner looks a good bet to win it all again ( but we are only one race in ). He is certainly quick enough and the package around him is good enough.

Rossi is in bit of a transitional period again. He wanted to change to Bridgestone and now he may be finding that it may take longer to get the tyre and bike working together.

My opinion is that Rossi is still the most complete rider out there. We have to remember that when Rossi first jumped on the Yam, it was a pile of shte.

Do you think Stoner would be able to develop and non competitive bike and win straight off ? I am not sure that if Casey jumped on the Kawasaki ( for example ) that he would win the title.

Sorry to waffle. At this very moment in time..Casey is No.1
Come on Jerez....GO ROSSIFUMI !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Willski @ Mar 13 2008, 07:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My opinion is that Rossi is still the most complete rider out there. We have to remember that when Rossi first jumped on the Yam, it was a pile of shte.

Do you think Stoner would be able to develop and non competitive bike and win straight off ? I am not sure that if Casey jumped on the Kawasaki ( for example ) that he would win the title.


2003 Yamaha 3rd in constructors
2004 Yamaha 2nd


2006 Ducati 3rd in constructors
2007 Ducati 1st

I'd say Stoner has been there done that wouldn't you? More anomalies

Another Statistic ...

Since Stoner has been in motogp 511 points against Rossi's 493 ..... so he must have surpassed Rossi on that score at Qatar

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 13 2008, 05:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner started in 2006 so up to date he has 11 wins ....

In that time Rossi has had nine wins .....

So in the last 36 GP's Stoner has 11 wins ...... Rossi 9 ...... yeah looks like Stoner has been better than Rossi since he came in!!


Statistics


Barry, Ive just noticed in your favourite riders you have Lorenzo and Pedrosa.........You do realise they are not Aussies dont you?

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Mar 13 2008, 09:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Barry, Ive just noticed in your favourite riders you have Lorenzo and Pedrosa.........You do realise they are not Aussies dont you?

Pete


What!! no way how come they have names like Lozza!?


and .... ..... Asutralian schools are full of ....'s!!




well no comeon you can't say they aren't "in the zone" ATM ....therefore they are good to watch ... thats what I go for .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 13 2008, 10:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What!! no way how come they have names like Lozza!?


and .... ..... Asutralian schools are full of ....'s!!




well no comeon you can't say they aren't "in the zone" ATM ....therefore they are good to watch ... thats what I go for .



Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Mar 12 2008, 01:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>stoner wasnt even using this years tires he used last years because he knew when testing them that he wouldnt get the times he needed to win, i posted a translation from a news site about it in another thread.
Great, bridgestone tires got worse this year and Michelins got better. Just waht Rossi needed.

I watched a bit of the race last night and noticed a few things..

1. Stoner typically is able to lean more than the other bikes. His elbow almost touches the ground -- better tires?

2. Stoner seems to be able to get on the power earlier than the other riders -- this could be due to superior traction control. You can see that the bike comes wiggling out of the corners, but is always cotrolled.

3. Stoner passed Rossi on the brakes. At the end of the straight, rossi looks over sees Stoner and then starts braking BEFORE Stoner. This usually means superior riding skill (or better may be weight distribution on the Ducati).

4. The Ducati does seem to have a higher top speed and less frontal area than the Yamaha.

Now, I think that is a lethal combination -- better tires, better traction control, possibly better riding and higher top speed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 13 2008, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>2003 Yamaha 3rd in constructors
2004 Yamaha 2nd


2006 Ducati 3rd in constructors
2007 Ducati 1st

I'd say Stoner has been there done that wouldn't you? More anomalies

C'mon now, Rossi moving to Yamaha was clearly a step down from the all conquering Honda. Stoner moving to Ducati was a step up, though, I'll admit it, it was one that puzzled me at the time. But for injury Capirossi could have won the Championship in 2006 or at least been a lot closer.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valerian @ Mar 14 2008, 09:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>C'mon now, Rossi moving to Yamaha was clearly a step down from the all conquering Honda. Stoner moving to Ducati was a step up, though,

Well the figures don't show that

Rossi got the bike from 3rd to 2nd

Stoner got the bike from 3rd to 1st

Its pretty simple .....

So thats another Statistic in Stoners favour!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 14 2008, 06:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Great, bridgestone tires got worse this year and Michelins got better. Just waht Rossi needed.


Oh now thats just great!! ...... bet Stoner is going to hate Rossi joining the Bridgestone fold ..... cos he was doing just fine on them last year ........ hey wait ....he is this year too!!??

Another Statistic I just remembered:

Since Stoner joined

WC's for Rossi = 0

WC's for Stoner = 1

Another Statistic:

Since Stoner joined motogp class:

Rossi ...... DNF's or Ret's = 6

Stoner .....DNF's or RET's = 6

ok that does look like a tie ...... however

since Stoner achieved his 6 before Rossi, on points count back, we will have to say he has won that too

whichever way you look at it really ..... good or bad

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 14 2008, 02:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Another Statistic:

Since Stoner joined motogp class:

Rossi ...... DNF's or Ret's = 6

Stoner .....DNF's or RET's = 6

ok that does look like a tie ...... however

since Stoner achieved his 6 before Rossi, on points count back, we will have to say he has won that too

whichever way you look at it really ..... good or bad



Barry, you have to much time.






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 13 2008, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well the figures don't show that

Rossi got the bike from 3rd to 2nd

Stoner got the bike from 3rd to 1st

Its pretty simple .....

So thats another Statistic in Stoners favour!!

Lies, damned lies and statistics!

How many races did the Yamaha win the year before Rossi rode it? Zero! Honda won every race in 2003 bar one. The best result for Yamaha was one third.

How many races did the Ducati win the year before Stoner rode it? Four! Heck, even Bayliss won on it!

That's a win for me, I think!

Steve

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valerian @ Mar 14 2008, 11:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lies, damned lies and statistics!

How many races did the Yamaha win the year before Rossi rode it? Zero! Honda won every race in 2003 bar one. The best result for Yamaha was one third.

How many races did the Ducati win the year before Stoner rode it? Four! Heck, even Bayliss won on it!

That's a win for me, I think!

Steve
Well, if you're going to use statistics like this then straight off the top of my head, I can think of 3 world championships won by Wayne Rainey on a yamaha.
CHECK YOUR POST BEFORE YOU PUT IT UP!!!!

The count of wins or other statistics is quite irrelevant, actually.

There is no doubt that CURRENTLY Stoner is doing BETTER than Rossi
But in evaluating these two riders overall - and please note that they are two of my all-time favourite riders - how can one ignore the fact that Rossi is still competitive today, having won every class that was available in the past 10 years?

Rossi' greatness is that he won A LOT in many different classes, with different bikes, and is still capable to ride with the youngest generation of riders today. That alone is something that young champions like Stoner or Lorenzo or Dovi will need TIME to only hope to repeat.

So we should leave Rossi alone, because among the current active riders he's quite unique. Assume he manages to win one more title in this 800cc category - that would make him bigger than Doohan (for the moment Doohn is still ahead of him by a slight margin in the all time classification IMHO).

Even if he retires without winning another title, Stoner and Lorenzo will have to race and win for many more years to claim to be on a par with such a champion. Amen!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Mar 14 2008, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The count of wins or other statistics is quite irrelevant, actually.

There is no doubt that CURRENTLY Stoner is doing BETTER than Rossi
But in evaluating these two riders overall - and please note that they are two of my all-time favourite riders - how can one ignore the fact that Rossi is still competitive today, having won every class that was available in the past 10 years?

Rossi' greatness is that he won A LOT in many different classes, with different bikes, and is still capable to ride with the youngest generation of riders today. That alone is something that young champions like Stoner or Lorenzo or Dovi will need TIME to only hope to repeat.

So we should leave Rossi alone, because among the current active riders he's quite unique. Assume he manages to win one more title in this 800cc category - that would make him bigger than Doohan (for the moment Doohn is still ahead of him by a slight margin in the all time classification IMHO).

Even if he retires without winning another title, Stoner and Lorenzo will have to race and win for many more years to claim to be on a par with such a champion. Amen!
I agree with you as I usually do. Stoner needs at least 2 more championships to be even mentioned with rossi overall.

But it is illogical for people to complain about stoner having an unfair advantage by being on a ducati. He is perhaps fortunate to have ended up on the ducati at this point in time, and equally ducati are perhaps fortunate that he is ended up on their bike at this point in time, but unless ducati are found to have been cheating it is not unfair. Rossi and several other riders could have been on the ducati if they so chose, and as they say "you pays your money and you takes your choice". Motogp may well have been over for stoner if 2007 had been a mediocre year, and few would have excused him if the bike had been mediocre. Unlike any other rider, good performances by him seem to be only attributable by many to his bike, whereas less stellar performances can never be excused by an inferior bike.

Riders world championships on a yamaha prior to rossi 10, riders world championships on a ducati prior to stoner 0.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Mar 14 2008, 08:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The count of wins or other statistics is quite irrelevant, actually.

There is no doubt that CURRENTLY Stoner is doing BETTER than Rossi
But in evaluating these two riders overall - and please note that they are two of my all-time favourite riders - how can one ignore the fact that Rossi is still competitive today, having won every class that was available in the past 10 years?

Rossi' greatness is that he won A LOT in many different classes, with different bikes, and is still capable to ride with the youngest generation of riders today. That alone is something that young champions like Stoner or Lorenzo or Dovi will need TIME to only hope to repeat.

So we should leave Rossi alone, because among the current active riders he's quite unique. Assume he manages to win one more title in this 800cc category - that would make him bigger than Doohan (for the moment Doohn is still ahead of him by a slight margin in the all time classification IMHO).

Even if he retires without winning another title, Stoner and Lorenzo will have to race and win for many more years to claim to be on a par with such a champion. Amen!


WOW..finally someone with some intellect. Rossi is the only rider that was successful in the 500, 990 and is still winning races against the techno kids. thats raw talent. I strongly believe that ones he gets them Stones diled in he will win as many races as Stoner this season.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Mar 14 2008, 01:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well, if you're going to use statistics like this then straight off the top of my head, I can think of 3 world championships won by Wayne Rainey on a yamaha.
CHECK YOUR POST BEFORE YOU PUT IT UP!!!!

Last century, mate. We're talking modern times here.

It's easy to use stats to prove a point, any point. Yamaha coming third in the Championship the year before Rossi was a different third compared to the Ducati third. Yamaha's was a going nowhere third and probably only there because Suzuki and Kwak were no good whereas the Ducati was clearly a good bike and if not for injury of Capirossi would have finished a lot higher.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 14 2008, 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree with you as I usually do. Stoner needs at least 2 more championships to be even mentioned with rossi overall.

But it is illogical for people to complain about stoner having an unfair advantage by being on a ducati. He is perhaps fortunate to have ended up on the ducati at this point in time, and equally ducati are perhaps fortunate that he is ended up on their bike at this point in time, but unless ducati are found to have been cheating it is not unfair. Rossi and several other riders could have been on the ducati if they so chose, and as they say "you pays your money and you takes your choice". Motogp may well have been over for stoner if 2007 had been a mediocre year, and few would have excused him if the bike had been mediocre. Unlike any other rider, good performances by him seem to be only attributable by many to his bike, whereas less stellar performances can never be excused by an inferior bike.

Riders world championships on a yamaha prior to rossi 10, riders world championships on a ducati prior to stoner 0.

Yes, absolutely - it is actually silly to try to take away credit from Stoner. He's a wunderkind.
To be fair to Ducati though, they never competed in the MotoGP premier class before the 4 stroke era, so any comparison with the Japs should take into account the titles won / number of years competing.