<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(krazy91 @ Sep 23 2007, 01:04 PM) [snapback]92771[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
do any of you even watch the 125 and 250 none of what you are saying happens. I mean think about it there must be some sort of logic or idea as to why other world championships have gone to a spec tire
The 125 and 250 are not supplied by a spec tyre, its very different
do any of you even watch the 125 and 250 none of what you are saying happens. I mean think about it there must be some sort of logic or idea as to why other world championships have gone to a spec tire
The 125 and 250 are not supplied by a spec tyre, its very different
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Sep 23 2007, 06:12 PM) [snapback]92812[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
The 125 and 250 are not supplied by a spec tyre, its very different
Can you please explain the difference for this dumb arse...cheers
The 125 and 250 are not supplied by a spec tyre, its very different
Can you please explain the difference for this dumb arse...cheers
A control tyre is closed from competition, the supplier is chosen and they can give whatever tyres they want without worrying too much about how they perform. See Pirelli in world superbikes
A single supplier championship is open to competition but usually comes about from one supplier being too good. Other suppliers are welcome to enter so development is still competative and progress is still made. There may also be differences in the tyres supplied to the top riders and the guys on the privateer bikes at the back. See F1, 250 and 125 cc GP.
A single supplier championship is open to competition but usually comes about from one supplier being too good. Other suppliers are welcome to enter so development is still competative and progress is still made. There may also be differences in the tyres supplied to the top riders and the guys on the privateer bikes at the back. See F1, 250 and 125 cc GP.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Sep 23 2007, 06:36 PM) [snapback]92818[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
A single supplier championship is open to competition but usually comes about from one supplier being too good. Other suppliers are welcome to enter so development is still competative and progress is still made. There may also be differences in the tyres supplied to the top riders and the guys on the privateer bikes at the back. See F1, 250 and 125 cc GP.
Open to competition at what stage? At the end of each season? Every race? When? I'm struggling to see the difference...
A single supplier championship is open to competition but usually comes about from one supplier being too good. Other suppliers are welcome to enter so development is still competative and progress is still made. There may also be differences in the tyres supplied to the top riders and the guys on the privateer bikes at the back. See F1, 250 and 125 cc GP.
Open to competition at what stage? At the end of each season? Every race? When? I'm struggling to see the difference...
Same tyres, why not?
If you ask me, same tyres same bike. This isn't Formula 1. Here the rider matters most, not the 20 geeks in the back of the garage with laptops to control the tyre pressure a thousand times a second. This is real racing and it should stay that way.
If you ask me, same tyres same bike. This isn't Formula 1. Here the rider matters most, not the 20 geeks in the back of the garage with laptops to control the tyre pressure a thousand times a second. This is real racing and it should stay that way.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pirkkalan GP @ Sep 23 2007, 06:06 PM) [snapback]92831[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Open to competition at what stage? At the end of each season? Every race? When? I'm struggling to see the difference...
Anyone can supply tyres in 125 and 250. Only Dunlop are very good and it would be too expensive to get competitive so no-one else enters. The tyres available to the top riders are very different from the ones that the small privateer teams get.
If Michelin and Dunlop pulled out of Motogp it wouldn't mean that its a control tyre, as Rossi & Pedrosa etc would get better tyres than the KR team for example. But if they went to a control tyre then the same tyres would have to be available to everyone. The only problem is if they build a tyre that's perfect for Hayden on his Honda it would have to available to everyone but it might be useless on a Kawasaki.
The above is true unless something had changed as its been a few seasons since I've religiously followed 125 & 250's.
Open to competition at what stage? At the end of each season? Every race? When? I'm struggling to see the difference...
Anyone can supply tyres in 125 and 250. Only Dunlop are very good and it would be too expensive to get competitive so no-one else enters. The tyres available to the top riders are very different from the ones that the small privateer teams get.
If Michelin and Dunlop pulled out of Motogp it wouldn't mean that its a control tyre, as Rossi & Pedrosa etc would get better tyres than the KR team for example. But if they went to a control tyre then the same tyres would have to be available to everyone. The only problem is if they build a tyre that's perfect for Hayden on his Honda it would have to available to everyone but it might be useless on a Kawasaki.
The above is true unless something had changed as its been a few seasons since I've religiously followed 125 & 250's.
For Motogp it's a bad idea, just like it was for F1. Does anyone care that Bridgestone are the sole supplier to F1 anymore? All they talk about is a harder compound and a softer one (the one with the white line, I believe) - they never talk about Bridgestone tyres per se. So there have been a few duff races this year in terms of close racing at the front, but as the season has gone on, Michelin have stepped up to the plate and started to fight back. There have been two big changes this year - give them another year to bed in and then have another look.
Do the tyre companies want a single supplier rule?
Do the tyre companies want a single supplier rule?
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gabi_l @ Sep 23 2007, 08:36 PM) [snapback]92846[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Same tyres, why not?
If you ask me, same tyres same bike. This isn't Formula 1. Here the rider matters most, not the 20 geeks in the back of the garage with laptops to control the tyre pressure a thousand times a second. This is real racing and it should stay that way.
Sadly, that is what TC brings you and control tyres will not stop that. It was 20/80 bike/rider with the 500s and the early 990s but TC keeps eroding that balance.
BTW I voted no 'cos apart from anthing else I think that tyre development for our road bikes will suffer if both Motogp & WBSK are on control tyres.
Same tyres, why not?
If you ask me, same tyres same bike. This isn't Formula 1. Here the rider matters most, not the 20 geeks in the back of the garage with laptops to control the tyre pressure a thousand times a second. This is real racing and it should stay that way.
Sadly, that is what TC brings you and control tyres will not stop that. It was 20/80 bike/rider with the 500s and the early 990s but TC keeps eroding that balance.
BTW I voted no 'cos apart from anthing else I think that tyre development for our road bikes will suffer if both Motogp & WBSK are on control tyres.
It has made a big impact in F1, last year Ferrari fans kept complaining that Michelin tyres were better and that's why they lost, now the tyres are the same for everyone and no one complains about it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gabi_l @ Sep 23 2007, 08:36 PM) [snapback]92846[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Same tyres, why not?
If you ask me, same tyres same bike. This isn't Formula 1. Here the rider matters most, not the 20 geeks in the back of the garage with laptops to control the tyre pressure a thousand times a second. This is real racing and it should stay that way.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(yamaka46 @ Sep 23 2007, 10:39 PM) [snapback]92857[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Sadly, that is what TC brings you and control tyres will not stop that. It was 20/80 bike/rider with the 500s and the early 990s but TC keeps eroding that balance.
Thats where you are wrong, motorcycle Grand Prix is as about technology as well as riders and it always has been
Same tyres, why not?
If you ask me, same tyres same bike. This isn't Formula 1. Here the rider matters most, not the 20 geeks in the back of the garage with laptops to control the tyre pressure a thousand times a second. This is real racing and it should stay that way.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(yamaka46 @ Sep 23 2007, 10:39 PM) [snapback]92857[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Sadly, that is what TC brings you and control tyres will not stop that. It was 20/80 bike/rider with the 500s and the early 990s but TC keeps eroding that balance.
Thats where you are wrong, motorcycle Grand Prix is as about technology as well as riders and it always has been
I think all motoGP teams should be on Kelly tyres!!!...
oh sorry...didn’t you all know that Kelly is coming into motoGP in 08!!! And they’re going to kick Michelins arse!!!
oh sorry...didn’t you all know that Kelly is coming into motoGP in 08!!! And they’re going to kick Michelins arse!!!
Control tyre won't happen, not next year at least. don't panic. Michelin don't want it to happen, hardly in the spirit of their rich GP heritage, just to give up, don't think so. Bridgestone are enjoying being top dog, a control tyre takes away all that glory. They don't want that, they're japanese, pride is everything. The FIM won't let it happen anyway.
All these questions and wild guesses. Here's my hypothesis.
There are two different coefficients of friction, static and kenetic. During the two stroke era (dominated by Michelin) a good kenetic coefficient of friction was necessary to keep up speed. When Bridgestone entered they incorrectly deduced that electronics and smooth power delivery of the 4 stroke would increase the necessity of a rubber compound that had a high static coefficient.
Unfortunately, for Bridgestone and their teams things didn't work out as planned. First, bikes still slid all over the track. Second, everytime it got hot the pavement melted the rubber and made sliding essential. However, Bridgestones did work well at low grip circuits where high kenetic tires were more difficult to hook up and difficult to control.
Now we have the 800s. Less power and loads of TC keep bikes from stepping out of line at all. High static coefficient tires rule (Bridgestone). On the other end of the spectrum, Bridestone probably won't help Hayden all that much and they certainly haven't helped Melandri this year.
Obviously, this is over simplified but it does make some sense to me at least. Puig told Pedrosa to hold out for B-stones b/c he knew you needed them to ride a 250 style. Nicky goes faster with traction control off so the tires get hotter and he can utilize the kenetic characteristics. A former 250 rider walks off with the world championship while Loris struggles to make the top 10 on the same bike. Michelin are better under qualifying when riders get sideways on a few hot laps. It explains also why Bridgestone are suddenly better than Michelin overnight.
I guess what I'm getting at is Bridgestones are fastest in normal riding conditions. It sounds like a bridgestone front and a Michelin rear would be the ticket to some fast racing.
How much longer will sliding be gone? If they switch to Bridgestone control, will they be shafting Michelin as power output grows?
There are two different coefficients of friction, static and kenetic. During the two stroke era (dominated by Michelin) a good kenetic coefficient of friction was necessary to keep up speed. When Bridgestone entered they incorrectly deduced that electronics and smooth power delivery of the 4 stroke would increase the necessity of a rubber compound that had a high static coefficient.
Unfortunately, for Bridgestone and their teams things didn't work out as planned. First, bikes still slid all over the track. Second, everytime it got hot the pavement melted the rubber and made sliding essential. However, Bridgestones did work well at low grip circuits where high kenetic tires were more difficult to hook up and difficult to control.
Now we have the 800s. Less power and loads of TC keep bikes from stepping out of line at all. High static coefficient tires rule (Bridgestone). On the other end of the spectrum, Bridestone probably won't help Hayden all that much and they certainly haven't helped Melandri this year.
Obviously, this is over simplified but it does make some sense to me at least. Puig told Pedrosa to hold out for B-stones b/c he knew you needed them to ride a 250 style. Nicky goes faster with traction control off so the tires get hotter and he can utilize the kenetic characteristics. A former 250 rider walks off with the world championship while Loris struggles to make the top 10 on the same bike. Michelin are better under qualifying when riders get sideways on a few hot laps. It explains also why Bridgestone are suddenly better than Michelin overnight.
I guess what I'm getting at is Bridgestones are fastest in normal riding conditions. It sounds like a bridgestone front and a Michelin rear would be the ticket to some fast racing.
How much longer will sliding be gone? If they switch to Bridgestone control, will they be shafting Michelin as power output grows?
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Valerian @ Sep 23 2007, 10:29 PM) [snapback]92856[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
give them another year to bed in and then have another look.
Do the tyre companies want a single supplier rule?
1. i agree, its to soon to bring in that rule, the 800s are still in there teething stage, dorna should never have inroduced 2 big rule changes at the same time anyway.
2. apparently not. they say win or loose its bad for them as nobody talks about the tyres when there is a single tyre rule so bad for business.
give them another year to bed in and then have another look.
Do the tyre companies want a single supplier rule?
1. i agree, its to soon to bring in that rule, the 800s are still in there teething stage, dorna should never have inroduced 2 big rule changes at the same time anyway.
2. apparently not. they say win or loose its bad for them as nobody talks about the tyres when there is a single tyre rule so bad for business.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(alex29 @ Sep 22 2007, 07:33 PM) [snapback]92309[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Control Tire. What a great idea??
Put every one on Dunlops.............
Control Tire. What a great idea??
Put every one on Dunlops.............
i can see the arguement from both sides.
As a rossi fan i think it has severly affected his racing this year and also the quality of some races. Dorna must realise that they cannot have a championship where its Michelins 10-20 fighting each other and bridgestones 1-10.
However, Bridgestone have been plodding along now with improvements for some years and deserve their current success. I can see how they view it unfair that ,ichelin win for 10 years and then the rules are changed because they dont.
Just a thought to consider, maybe the Bridgestones arent doing as fab as we think but its the michelins doing so badly that is making them appear 10 x better?
As a rossi fan i think it has severly affected his racing this year and also the quality of some races. Dorna must realise that they cannot have a championship where its Michelins 10-20 fighting each other and bridgestones 1-10.
However, Bridgestone have been plodding along now with improvements for some years and deserve their current success. I can see how they view it unfair that ,ichelin win for 10 years and then the rules are changed because they dont.
Just a thought to consider, maybe the Bridgestones arent doing as fab as we think but its the michelins doing so badly that is making them appear 10 x better?
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Sep 24 2007, 12:55 PM) [snapback]92973[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Thats where you are wrong, motorcycle Grand Prix is as about technology as well as riders and it always has been
Yes, technology is a part of it, but as I have said before I never want a road bike with TC.
I also believe that the pinnacle of racing should be mostly about about the rider/driver or eventually you will end up with the racing equivalent of UAVs and Asimo (as opposed to Pedrobot) will really be able to win.
This IMHO would be a terrible state of affairs - I loved Schwantz's riding style and love Elias and Rossi's today. Are you telling me that a bunch of Asimos could produce that? Or any kind of "racing" we'd want to watch.
Even F1 has finaly woken up and smelt the coffee - TC banned for next year.
Thats where you are wrong, motorcycle Grand Prix is as about technology as well as riders and it always has been
Yes, technology is a part of it, but as I have said before I never want a road bike with TC.
I also believe that the pinnacle of racing should be mostly about about the rider/driver or eventually you will end up with the racing equivalent of UAVs and Asimo (as opposed to Pedrobot) will really be able to win.
This IMHO would be a terrible state of affairs - I loved Schwantz's riding style and love Elias and Rossi's today. Are you telling me that a bunch of Asimos could produce that? Or any kind of "racing" we'd want to watch.
Even F1 has finaly woken up and smelt the coffee - TC banned for next year.
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