This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

So , they are not worried about ducati then?

I do see an element of hypocrisy in ducati's attitude given their recent success in having the rules changed in superbikes, similar to bridgestone in motogp in 2007 after having the rules changed in their favour at the end of 2006.

However they never competed in the 500 2-stroke days, I gather because it did not fit with their engineering tradition, and they did have a fairly potent bargaining tool in wsbk. I am not all that up on the world sbk rules, but as has been discussed on another thread they have quite easily sold 1500 989cc desmosedici V4rrs, and there seems no reason the rr would not have qualified for homologation under the old rules; just upping the roadgoing rev limit would surely have resulted in something fairly invincible. I notice the numbers for homologation have gone up to 3000 post 2009, perhaps to circumvent future such bikes.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Feb 25 2008, 08:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>and remember kids, just say NO to F1...

<

That is perhaps the most sensible thing I have read all day!
<
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (citadina @ Feb 25 2008, 10:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It just brakes my heart that GP is getting less and less about the bikes and more and more about boardroom deals

I agree, its a shame so many other fans do not. Most of this forum is despereate to have bike advantages removed so the "best" rider wins no matter which team he's in, and a technical limit that is easily acievable like the one proposed would easily give that result and cut costs, as would control tyres and ECU's. It all stinks of F1, and as much as i love F1 its got nothing on motogp for technical diversity and innovation right now
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 25 2008, 10:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i totally agree mate.
<



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Feb 25 2008, 10:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>and remember kids, just say NO to F1...

<



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 25 2008, 11:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree,.... It all stinks of F1, and as much as i love F1 its got nothing on motogp for technical diversity and innovation right now

Wow everyone agreeing on something! I must mark this date down in my calander!
<
<
<


Man I love this board!
<
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 22 2008, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>lazy or counting the pennys ?
because of the way the desmo system works it eliminates valve bounce ( spring surge ) and i believe ducati patented the design so no one else can use it. now i have know doubt the pneumatic system could be made to give a rev ceiling similar to the desmo engine.
honda and yamaha have probably worked out how much money it will cost them to compete at this level in the short amount of time so like any business have looked to a cheaper faster way i.e get the rules changed. ducati have also pursued this option in wsb and would do the same in motogp if the shoe was on the other foot... its just responsible business practice.

Ducati Motor Holding S.p.A.
Our motorcycle design and technology are not protected by intellectual property rights

The design and technology of our motorcycles, including the Desmodromic valve control system, are not protected by any material patent, trademark or other intellectual property rights, other than the registered trademarks associated with the Ducati brand itself. In particular, the technical features that distinguish Ducati motorcycles are not protected by material patents or other intellectual property rights. The component parts of our motorcycles are manufactured according to well-known techniques and include components that are not unique to our products. As a result, the design and technology of our motorcycles are vulnerable to being copied or imitated by competitors, and certain of our competitors have copied our technology and design features in the past. Our competitors may have or develop equivalent or superior manufacturing and design skills, and may develop an enhancement that will be patentable or otherwise protected from duplication by others. These events could have a material adverse effect on our business, prospects, results of operations and financial condition.

just for your info!!!!!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chockmoose @ Feb 25 2008, 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ducati Motor Holding S.p.A.
Our motorcycle design and technology are not protected by intellectual property rights

The design and technology of our motorcycles, including the Desmodromic valve control system, are not protected by any material patent, trademark or other intellectual property rights, other than the registered trademarks associated with the Ducati brand itself. In particular, the technical features that distinguish Ducati motorcycles are not protected by material patents or other intellectual property rights. The component parts of our motorcycles are manufactured according to well-known techniques and include components that are not unique to our products. As a result, the design and technology of our motorcycles are vulnerable to being copied or imitated by competitors, and certain of our competitors have copied our technology and design features in the past. Our competitors may have or develop equivalent or superior manufacturing and design skills, and may develop an enhancement that will be patentable or otherwise protected from duplication by others. These events could have a material adverse effect on our business, prospects, results of operations and financial condition.

just for your info!!!!!
check this wiki link out mate...link

in particular this statement. Ducati holds a number of patents relating to desmodromics. they probably only have patents for the bits that make the system work
<
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 25 2008, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>check this wiki link out mate...link

in particular this statement. Ducati holds a number of patents relating to desmodromics. they probably only have patents for the bits that make the system work
<


AFAIK Ducati's desmo patents are 50 years old. I think their real 'patent' is that desmo is associated indelibly with Ducati since decades, and others going that way would jeopardize their image as imitators, especially if they are Japanese industrial giants.
Anyway, in the field of prototype racing, are patents applicable at all...?!
<
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 25 2008, 12:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>check this wiki link out mate...link

in particular this statement. Ducati holds a number of patents relating to desmodromics. they probably only have patents for the bits that make the system work
<


yeah understand your reaction if you trust wiki as opposed to the quote from Ducati Motor Holding S.p.A. Do you know that a patent only lasts for a limited time? I would suggest that the japs will not use desmo system more for a lack of face rather than any infringment of old patents (search for the history of desmo system then you will see that it will not be covered by patents as Ducati say in the quote that i posted)

cheers!!!!
 
If honda could swallow their pride and build a two stroke i'm pretty sure they will use Desmo valves if they could/have to.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 25 2008, 05:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If honda could swallow their pride and build a two stroke i'm pretty sure they will use Desmo valves if they could/have to.

Two stroke?!
<
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 25 2008, 04:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>check this wiki link out mate...link

in particular this statement. Ducati holds a number of patents relating to desmodromics. they probably only have patents for the bits that make the system work
<


This is nice but it means nothing.

Teams with secret race technologies don't draw up detailed schematics then file them in the public records. You don't want a patent until the first day your product goes to market. You might file while racing if you were worried about losing the personnel that designed the system, but the usually make those people owners.

Even with the wiki article it is still possible the company is racing with unprotected technologies. Either the patents on Ducati desmodromics have expired (likely) or Ducati has a special Corsa version of Desmo that isn't patented and is unknown to other racing outfits (also likely).
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Feb 25 2008, 08:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You don't find it unjustified? What is exactly the justification for lobbying for a rev limit because your competitors engine can rev higher than yours? The rest of your post I agree with. If Honda or Yamaha build a better engine or indeed a better bike than Ducati then more power to them. It's the principle of team racing isn't it? Build a better bike than your competitors. All I'm saying is, the Japanese manufacturers should be busting their arse's off, to bridge any gap in engine performance rather than take the easy way out by trying to change the rules. Lets face it, if Ducati lagged behind all the other manufacturers no one would give a fat rats arse. You hit the nail on the head when you said that Ducat don't have the budget of the big guys. Well then it just goes to show that it is possible to build a high reving high performance engine without spending a truck load of money. If Ducati can do it then there is absolutely no reason why the big Japanese manufacturers can't do the same. I can't believe some of you guys don't think it's such a bad idea. It's a prototype series, surely the bar needs setting as high as possible, not limiting it so the guys who are lagging behind a little don't have to push harder.
This is why I asked if you read all of my post. I agree entirely with everything you say here. If the limit HRC/Yam are trying to impose is 19,000 (reported only in Autosport as Preziosi's rection to an alleged proposal that hasn't been reported anywhere else) then that implies they are trying to limit Ducati rather than costs.

However, my point was that a rev limit of some sort (say 22,000 for sake of arguement) may not be such a bad plan otherwise we may end up with a technology war which can only be won by a team with oodles of cash (ie not Ducati) due to the need for research into exotic materials etc.

I have repeated the relevant part of my original post for clarity.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Feb 24 2008, 01:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would say that the manufacturers behind the proposal do have a point: as engine revs rise, more and more exotic materials must be used to reduce the reciprocating weight of the engine, and electronic valve actuation becomes an area for serious development. Costs spiral out of control, resulting in teams that can afford the research bill dominating and running away with "technology" victories time and time again.

Whilst Ducati’s reaction is right in the short term, in the longer term the sport will need to address how to keep the competition alive and allow development within a reasonable budget. Next question: what is a reasonable budget?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Feb 23 2008, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think that if the proposal had suggested the current Ducati max rpm as the limit then I don't think the reaction would be as outraged - because it's reported as being a 19,000 limit people are seeing it as an attack on Ducati.

Hi Yamaka. I think perhaps you are projecting some of your own goodhearted nature into the equation. But you as an individual personal racing enthusiast is worlds apart from the corporate competitiveness of a smoke filled room where these dastardly schemes are created.

I think that's the point, that Ducati did NOT suggest it but their competitors did (this should tell us something). And now we are to believe that they are proposing this for benevolent motives? Do you seriously believe that Yamaha or Honda as a corporate entity has the best intention for all the competitors in mind (embarrassingly getting beat by a brand with a tiny fraction of their budget)? Of course people are seeing it as an attack on Ducati, and so does Ducati itself (or did you somehow miss the sarcastic quote from them). They made this statement because they see through the real intentions of Yamaha/Honda.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Feb 23 2008, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would say that the manufacturers behind the proposal do have a point: as engine revs rise, more and more exotic materials must be used to reduce the reciprocating weight of the engine, and electronic valve actuation becomes an area for serious development. Costs spiral out of control, resulting in teams that can afford the research bill dominating and running away with "technology" victories time and time again.

Whilst Ducati’s reaction is right in the short term, in the longer term the sport will need to address how to keep the competition alive and allow development within a reasonable budget. Next question: what is a reasonable budget?

So you think the "manufacturers behind the proposal do have a point."

Amazing. You make a case that Honda/Yamaha are concerned for "budget" costs? Are you aware of the differences between these two entities compared to Ducati when it comes to available capital designated for racing? And you think rev limitation is the best they could come up with to bring budgets under control. Wow. Sorry man, I don't mean to sound brash, but do you work for the spin department in some Japanese brand whose name starts with an "H" or a "Y"?

Come on man, let’s talk about the common sense here. The one company that has reliably and successfully been able to design a valve system that has allowed for fantastically high revs has been Ducati. Yamaha, and to a greater degree Honda have struggled designing a valve system that can compete, and now on the heels of this reality comes this proposal? Dude, did you not learn anything from the proposal and now reality to switch to 800s under the "benevolent" disguise to improve "safety"? (Accept, that proposal backfired for them). Oh and where are we at in safety?--The bikes are faster where they are most dangerous.

So now we are to believe that "perhaps" Honda/Yamaha have a "point" because behind (what should be regarded as a pathetic power play) they said this proposal is for "budget" considerations? And you believe them?

I think YOU have a point about budgets (which I agree with) however; the problem is that I don't think it really is Yamaha/Honda's point.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Feb 26 2008, 12:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think YOU have a point about budgets (which I agree with) however; the problem is that I don't think it really is Yamaha/Honda's point.
That was exactly my point! I said that Ducati was right in the short term (and hence HRC/Yamaha wrong), but in the longer term the sport may need to consider costs.

All this is assuming this proposal really exists and is not a figment of Autosports imagination & more journalistic BS - no other news site has reported anything about this, whereas with the tyre proposals it was all over the net.
 
no one is worried about ducati.

look at marco and the other ducati riders, there all making up the tail of the field. their all just worried about stoner.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Feb 29 2008, 11:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>no one is worried about ducati.

look at marco and the other ducati riders, there all making up the tail of the field. their all just worried about stoner.
no .... sherlock !

of course there worried about stoner, after all he won it last season..your such a nob sometimes !
 
IMHO, GP should have no restrictons what so ever. the restrictions are already ridiculous, and have the potential of getting worse. To top that, manufacturers don't seem to know much.. Here is why..

When the diplacement limit was 990cc, manufacturers were free to have engines BELOW that capacity. With the millions of $ they have at their disposal, why couldn't atleast one of them have figured out that a 800cc bike will actually post faster laptimes? They had the option to run 800cc or any capcity as long as it was less than 990cc during those days.

Clearly, what is allowing Ducati to win is corner speed. Towards the end of the season, the bikes did not seem to have the power advantage, like it did at the beginning of the season, to pass the other bikes on the straights.

Their main advantage seems to be coming from traction control and tires. And they have a rider who whose experience is a good match with the technology. Honda and Yamaha seem to stuck with Prima Donna riders who want the bikes to be adapted to them. That has become a losing proposition with the improvement in technology.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Feb 29 2008, 07:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Clearly, what is allowing Ducati to win is corner speed. Towards the end of the season, the bies did not seem to have the power advantage, like it did at th e beginning of the season, to pass the other bikes on the straights.

Their main advantage seems to be comming from traction control and tires. And they have a rider who whose experience is a good match with the technology. Honda and Yamaha seem to stuck with Prima Donna riders who want the bikes to be adapted to them. That has become a losing proposition with the improvement in technology.

+1
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Feb 29 2008, 07:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To top that, manufacturers don't seem to know much.. Here is why..

<


800's wouldn't have stood a chance against 990's
 

Recent Discussions