So , they are not worried about ducati then?

Its just sour grapes

u still need a rider to take advatnage of any advantage a bike may have.

look at loris and melandri. even with a "better" bike (if that is true) they still cant win any races. well melandri hasnt impressed at all. and looks to be doing much worse than loris ever did.

the only unfair advantage is with the rider ducati has.

maybe we need limit the practice times Stoner has before the race

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Feb 23 2008, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>u still need a rider to take advatnage of any advantage a bike may have.

look at loris and melandri. even with a "better" bike (if that is true) they still cant win any races. well melandri hasnt impressed at all. and looks to be doing much worse than loris ever did.
as far as melandri goes you must be looking into a crystal ball, how can you say he hasn't won on the duc when he hasn't raced on it yet ?
you make a good point about its needs a great rider to make a great bike work tho.

It's interesting that the only place this is reported (that I can find) on the net is the one article on autosport.com. Normally this type of thing is reported in all the usual places....

I think that if the proposal had suggested the current Ducati max rpm as the limit then I don't think the reaction would be as outraged - because it's reported as being a 19,000 limit people are seeing it as an attack on Ducati.

I would say that the manufacturers behind the proposal do have a point: as engine revs rise, more and more exotic materials must be used to reduce the reciprocating weight of the engine, and electronic valve actuation becomes an area for serious development. Costs spiral out of control, resulting in teams that can afford the research bill dominating and running away with "technology" victories time and time again.

Whilst Ducati’s reaction is right in the short term, in the longer term the sport will need to address how to keep the competition alive and allow development within a reasonable budget. Next question: what is a reasonable budget?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Feb 23 2008, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's interesting that the only place this is reported (that I can find) on the net is the one article on autosport.com. Normally this type of thing is reported in all the usual places....

I think that if the proposal had suggested the current Ducati max rpm as the limit then I don't think the reaction would be as outraged - because it's reported as being a 19,000 limit people are seeing it as an attack on Ducati.

I would say that the manufacturers behind the proposal do have a point: as engine revs rise, more and more exotic materials must be used to reduce the reciprocating weight of the engine, and electronic valve actuation becomes an area for serious development. Costs spiral out of control, resulting in teams that can afford the research bill dominating and running away with "technology" victories time and time again.

Whilst Ducati’s reaction is right in the short term, in the longer term the sport will need to address how to keep the competition alive and allow development within a reasonable budget. Next question: what is a reasonable budget?

+1 totally see this point and maybe Honda or Yamaha have already begun this research and are looking at costs spiraling out of control. Its funny but maybe they are allowing Ducati to save face here?? I don't know how big of a heart Honda has but maybe they are looking at something big. Ducati has basically said .... this regulation and Honda may just .... them back. It may take awhile but the end result could really put Ducati begging for these regulations.

Its a stretch but it is possible

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Feb 24 2008, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's interesting that the only place this is reported (that I can find) on the net is the one article on autosport.com. Normally this type of thing is reported in all the usual places....

I think that if the proposal had suggested the current Ducati max rpm as the limit then I don't think the reaction would be as outraged - because it's reported as being a 19,000 limit people are seeing it as an attack on Ducati.

I would say that the manufacturers behind the proposal do have a point: as engine revs rise, more and more exotic materials must be used to reduce the reciprocating weight of the engine, and electronic valve actuation becomes an area for serious development. Costs spiral out of control, resulting in teams that can afford the research bill dominating and running away with "technology" victories time and time again.

Whilst Ducati’s reaction is right in the short term, in the longer term the sport will need to address how to keep the competition alive and allow development within a reasonable budget. Next question: what is a reasonable budget?


This isn't about budget surely. Honda's and Yamaha's leaves the Ducati team budgets for dead from all reports. It's no secret the Ducati is able to rev a little higher with the Desmo system. The rest of it is a smokescreen. Preziosi is of the opinion it's a deliberate attempt to slow them down and how can you argue that? It's exactly what it is.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Feb 22 2008, 03:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>...., I would have taken it a step further and said: Why don't we just propose that only Yamaha and Honda bikes are allowed to win titles, preferably with an Italian or Spanish rider. .... why don't we just give them both a title every year, one for the top Honda finisher, and one for the top Yamaha finisher. I wonder how this proposal even made it beyond the smoke filled room it was conceived in?

Don't give this idea for them, shiiiii!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 23 2008, 09:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Desmo valve trains are deemed "old Technology", so its not any matter of patents ..... pneumatic valvetrains can be made lighter and with less inertial mass etc.. Its more a case of Pneumatics are seen as the way of the future. In the past the electronics was not good enough to drive the pneumatics but now you will find all manners of tweaks are in there just to handle the pneumatics.

And I think most people are wrong for thinking desmo is worse than pneumatics. Just look at the fact a pneumatic valve gets harder to "press" as revs increase, then we can conclude a little bit of power is wasted in the valve controls. In the other hand, desmo valves are smooth to control no matter at what rev engine is because none pressure is required. I think in the end desmo and pneumatic offers the same amount of performance but desmo is cheaper to produce.

But all this is ridiculous. They can limit revs but this will only affect the final speed. We can lower the revs by just pushing back the gear ratios so none engine power slash is necessary, the power only would be transffered for another torque curve. This kind of limitation is a joke since engineers can easily outline it. They can stop playing revs game and start to play torque game. We do have two or three long straights and we clearly see that was not the main principle for Casey's domination.

Ducati major superioty is not in the engine itself, it is the engine mapping control and TC. This eletronics just allow ducati to continue developing the engine and I can confortable say that Honda engineers are going in the wrong direction.

Honda and Yamaha have just signed an incompetency declaration. The two BikeZillas are getting owned a lot by the italian kid and I'm double ROFLMAO.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Feb 24 2008, 04:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This isn't about budget surely. Honda's and Yamaha's leaves the Ducati team budgets for dead from all reports. It's no secret the Ducati is able to rev a little higher with the Desmo system. The rest of it is a smokescreen. Preziosi is of the opinion it's a deliberate attempt to slow them down and how can you argue that? It's exactly what it is.
Did you bother reading my post - you picked it to reply to......

I was saying that in the longer term costs will increase as the search for more revs intensifies. I did not say that the Ducati desmo should be in the firing line at the moment, indeed I actually said that Ducati's reaction is correct in the short term.

I am not arguing that a rev limit below the Ducati's current max is good.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Feb 24 2008, 07:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Did you bother reading my post - you picked it to reply to......

I was saying that in the longer term costs will increase as the search for more revs intensifies. I did not say that the Ducati desmo should be in the firing line at the moment, indeed I actually said that Ducati's reaction is correct in the short term.

I am not arguing that a rev limit below the Ducati's current max is good.

Of course I read all your post.
Long term or short term we don't need a rev limit.
If the teams don't spend it on engine performance then they will simply spend it in other areas.

You say that the manufacturers have a point, What point is that? You seriously aren't buying that limit spending crap are you? This is Honda for goodness sake. They were working on a new pneumatic engine, that from all reports is slower than their conventional engine.

From Motogp.com

Now they are bandying around a rev limit? Coincidence? I think not.

If what we are led to believe is true then Honda were largely responsible for moving to an 800cc formula for 2007 and beyond. Now when it seems they aren't going to dominate like they perhaps anticipated, they want to make changes.
Here's a suggestion for Honda and Yamaha, stop bitching about rules and regulations and build a friggin better and faster bike.
Problem solved.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Feb 24 2008, 04:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This isn't about budget surely. Honda's and Yamaha's leaves the Ducati team budgets for dead from all reports.

Being a bigger company and having more money does not mean they actually want to out spend all their oposition, so there is no reason why they shouldn't want the costs reduced.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gui22a @ Feb 24 2008, 05:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I can confortable say that Honda engineers are going in the wrong direction.

Thank god you know more than everyone at HRC, now this is out in the open they can return to winning

What ever motives Honda and Yamaha have I don't find it completly unjustified.
Ducati were quick to reply and with sarcasm and that could easily bite them back, hard. They do not have the same budgets for development as the big ones and as soon as their advantage are eaten up, and it will probably sooner than later, they could quickly be the ones who want limitations.

The suggestions that this is purly because of Honda's problems with their pnumatic engine is bull. That is now right now but the rules for '08 are carved in stone and will not change. By the end of the year ( or more likely before the summer) Honda will have this solved so they no longer have a motive to limit revs because their engine can't get to the high revs. But still everyone jump out of their cahairs and yell "foul play", amusing

It's also nice to see board member that have the solution to Honda and Yamaha's problems. Make sure to mail both companies a copy of this

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 24 2008, 06:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thank god you know more than everyone at HRC, now this is out in the open they can return to winning




If they were going in the right direction, they weren't blaming high revs.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Feb 23 2008, 08:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>lolol give it time give it time...

i agree tho the rev thing is pathetic its been 1 season and everyone wants to throw there ideas into a bucket to get rules changed,

this sort of ignorance come from people like honda or yamaha, you got the yamaha guy whinging but wont try different configuration's they even didnt want to go pneumatic....

then you got honda that have had there pnuematic for like 5 minutes but goes pop when someone belts it, so want a limter to make it easy on themselves to stop there engine going bang.

why cant they be like suzuki or kawasaki

suzuki keep there mouths closed and just work harder try all sorts of things to get better performance like a new v4 and improved engine managment, hats off to them.

then you got kawasaki trying to up the horsepower and also going down a different configeration route (screamer wow), hats off to them also.

like i said before honda and yamaha got the cash and need to get with the program.
Spot on.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Feb 25 2008, 01:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What ever motives Honda and Yamaha have I don't find it completly unjustified.
Ducati were quick to reply and with sarcasm and that could easily bite them back, hard. They do not have the same budgets for development as the big ones and as soon as their advantage are eaten up, and it will probably sooner than later, they could quickly be the ones who want limitations.

The suggestions that this is purly because of Honda's problems with their pnumatic engine is bull. That is now right now but the rules for '08 are carved in stone and will not change. By the end of the year ( or more likely before the summer) Honda will have this solved so they no longer have a motive to limit revs because their engine can't get to the high revs. But still everyone jump out of their cahairs and yell "foul play", amusing

It's also nice to see board member that have the solution to Honda and Yamaha's problems. Make sure to mail both companies a copy of this


You don't find it unjustified? What is exactly the justification for lobbying for a rev limit because your competitors engine can rev higher than yours? The rest of your post I agree with. If Honda or Yamaha build a better engine or indeed a better bike than Ducati then more power to them. It's the principle of team racing isn't it? Build a better bike than your competitors. All I'm saying is, the Japanese manufacturers should be busting their arse's off, to bridge any gap in engine performance rather than take the easy way out by trying to change the rules. Lets face it, if Ducati lagged behind all the other manufacturers no one would give a fat rats arse. You hit the nail on the head when you said that Ducat don't have the budget of the big guys. Well then it just goes to show that it is possible to build a high reving high performance engine without spending a truck load of money. If Ducati can do it then there is absolutely no reason why the big Japanese manufacturers can't do the same. I can't believe some of you guys don't think it's such a bad idea. It's a prototype series, surely the bar needs setting as high as possible, not limiting it so the guys who are lagging behind a little don't have to push harder.

I don't understand Honda. Back in the day they took pride in developing the best engine possible. They didn't whine, they worked harder. Nowadays it seems as if they just want to take the easy route. I'm surprised they haven't gotten their pneumatic engine to work properly, since Honda in my eyes is one of the best engine developers in the world. They have an F1 department for christ sakes! It shouldn't be that hard to develop a powerful pneumatic valve MotoGP engine.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fred00 @ Feb 25 2008, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't understand Honda. Back in the day they took pride in developing the best engine possible. They didn't whine, they worked harder. Nowadays it seems as if they just want to take the easy route. I'm surprised they haven't gotten their pneumatic engine to work properly, since Honda in my eyes is one of the best engine developers in the world. They have an F1 department for christ sakes! It shouldn't be that hard to develop a powerful pneumatic valve MotoGP engine.

ducati have spent decades developing the desmo system. i fear pneumatics may take a few years to get right even with the big h's money.
besides, honda and yamaha are only taking a leaf out of ducati's book by asking for a rule change. ducati have done this a couple of times in motorcycle racing so hardly surprising others aren't trying it on.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 25 2008, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>besides, honda and yamaha are only taking a leaf out of ducati's book by asking for a rule change. ducati have done this a couple of times in motorcycle racing so hardly surprising others aren't trying it on.

Fair enough, but it still sucks. This sort of attitude just sets back development and racing in general. It just brakes my heart that GP is getting less and less about the bikes and more and more about boardroom deals. F1 anyone?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (citadina @ Feb 25 2008, 10:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Fair enough, but it still sucks. This sort of attitude just sets back development and racing in general. It just brakes my heart that GP is getting less and less about the bikes and more and more about boardroom deals. F1 anyone?
i totally agree mate.