So , they are not worried about ducati then?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (citadina @ Feb 22 2008, 03:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Equally silly however (and I am sorry that I have to point this out) is to blame one rider for EVERYTHING and anything the manufactuer is doing or trying to do.
Good point. So far there is no evidence that any one rider was in on this ridiculous proposal. I think it was purely Yamaha and Honda bosses trying to manipulate the rules because Ducati built a better mousetrap and the two Jap brands look silly with their pants down. I'm just saying that if Dorna was to entertain such a scandalous proposal, what other underhanded things might they be capable of? But you're right about your point.

Okay, time to play devils advocate.

Dorna "runs" (if we believe the insiders) Motogp and WSBK. Dorna is a Spanish (Euorpean) company headed by an Italian guy.

Rules changes handed Ducati the Motogp riders' title and the manufacturers title. If they win in WSBK this year, it will be argued that rules changes handed them titles once again.

Most recently, we have seen Dorna give lots of special treatment (whether fair or not) to a myriad of people. Valentino Rossi received Bridgestone tires even though Bridgestone declined. Michelin was nearly awarded the control tire contract. Ducati got 200cc displacement in WSBK (for the sake of information disclosure: they gave up tuning to get it).

Obviously, the quality Australian riders Ducati employ are a huge part of the equation, but isn't it possible the Japanese have a leg to stand on, or at least some cause for concern?

The 4 biggest motorcycle manufacturers in the world are Japanese. How many races does Japan get each year? How many Japanese champions have their been? Are they being punished because their half of the globe is destitute?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Feb 23 2008, 12:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Okay, time to play devils advocate.

Dorna "runs" (if we believe the insiders) Motogp and WSBK. Dorna is a Spanish (Euorpean) company headed by an Italian guy.

Rules changes handed Ducati the Motogp riders' title and the manufacturers title. If they win in WSBK this year, it will be argued that rules changes handed them titles once again.

Most recently, we have seen Dorna give lots of special treatment (whether fair or not) to a myriad of people. Valentino Rossi received Bridgestone tires even though Bridgestone declined. Michelin was nearly awarded the control tire contract. Ducati got 200cc displacement in WSBK (for the sake of information disclosure: they gave up tuning to get it).

Obviously, the quality Australian riders Ducati employ are a huge part of the equation, but isn't it possible the Japanese have a leg to stand on, or at least some cause for concern?

The 4 biggest motorcycle manufacturers in the world are Japanese. How many races does Japan get each year? How many Japanese champions have their been? Are they being punished because their half of the globe is destitute?

Don't the Flammini group run WSB?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Feb 23 2008, 01:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Okay, time to play devils advocate.

Dorna "runs" (if we believe the insiders) Motogp and WSBK. Dorna is a Spanish (Euorpean) company headed by an Italian guy.

Rules changes handed Ducati the Motogp riders' title and the manufacturers title. If they win in WSBK this year, it will be argued that rules changes handed them titles once again.

Most recently, we have seen Dorna give lots of special treatment (whether fair or not) to a myriad of people. Valentino Rossi received Bridgestone tires even though Bridgestone declined. Michelin was nearly awarded the control tire contract. Ducati got 200cc displacement in WSBK (for the sake of information disclosure: they gave up tuning to get it).

Obviously, the quality Australian riders Ducati employ are a huge part of the equation, but isn't it possible the Japanese have a leg to stand on, or at least some cause for concern?

The 4 biggest motorcycle manufacturers in the world are Japanese. How many races does Japan get each year? How many Japanese champions have their been? Are they being punished because their half of the globe is destitute?

Dorna just control MotoGP's TV rights, they've nothing to do with Superbike, and Ezpeleta, Dorna's boss, is Spanish, not Italian...

Dorna are just trying to make sure the spectacle is there because that means money to them. Whatever they do, right or wrong, is done with that preoccupation in mind, not to favour one or the other.

The Jap manufacturers have enough power of their own, especially Honda, and they in fact control the technical regulations. Everybody knows the move to 4T 990 cc and then to 800 cc was pushed by Honda.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Feb 22 2008, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That article distintcly said proposal from YAMAHA and HONDA yet everybody is ,.... Honda.Is Yamaha going to be excluded from your wrath because a certain rider that happens to ride a Yamaha.He was behind the tire deal,for all we know, he might be behind this as well

Yes, it does say Yamaha and Honda. But then they quote only the Honda chief engineer (Mr. Kokubu) supporting the idea, so one remains with Honda in mind. That's the reason, together with a history of Honda masterminding technical regulations so far -- I do not think anybody is intentionally leaving Yamaha aside in their comments, just because Rossi rides for it. If they really are with Honda in this, Yamaha must equally be condemned. I actually hope they are not, they have not been prone to this kind of manipulations in the past.

Nice.

Anyways, I thought I remember reading a conspiracy that suggested Dorna was behind WSBK because they had gotten so cozy with the FIM. In other words, the FIM was sending tons of money Dorna's way by paying them consulting fees, and Dorna was helping decide the fate of WSBK, so as not to cause conflict between the two series.

Probably nonsense. I can't remember when I read that, or where it came from.

Thanks for correcting me about Ezy. I remember hearing he was Spanish but I was trying to tie him to Rossi and Ducati and let my imagination run away with me.

BACK TO THE 500s

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 23 2008, 07:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>lazy or counting the pennys ?
because of the way the desmo system works it eliminates valve bounce ( spring surge ) and i believe ducati patented the design so no one else can use it. now i have know doubt the pneumatic system could be made to give a rev ceiling similar to the desmo engine.
honda and yamaha have probably worked out how much money it will cost them to compete at this level in the short amount of time so like any business have looked to a cheaper faster way i.e get the rules changed. ducati have also pursued this option in wsb and would do the same in motogp if the shoe was on the other foot... its just responsible business practice.

I wasn't sure if you were right here, because I thought desmodromics had been around for a long time, so it would be hard to patent.

This Wiki article mentions that desmo was first patented more than 100 years ago!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmodromic_valve

"Desmodromic valve systems are first mentioned in patents in 1896 by Gustav Mees", but then it also mentions that, "Ducati holds a number of patents relating to desmodromics", so Roger you may be right after all.

I'm guessing that anyone wanting to make a desmodromic top end would have to build it in a different way to Ducati. ie Assuming Ducati has already refined the best solution over a period of 30 years or more, alternative designs may well be less efficient and sap more power.

Therefore making the manufacture think, oh well, it's easier to change the rules than to have to make a better design than Ducati. Not to mention the marketing embarassment of following your competitors...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cangaceiro @ Feb 23 2008, 06:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I wasn't sure if you were right here, because I thought desmodromics had been around for a long time, so it would be hard to patent.

This Wiki article mentions that desmo was first patented more than 100 years ago!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmodromic_valve

"Desmodromic valve systems are first mentioned in patents in 1896 by Gustav Mees", but then it also mentions that, "Ducati holds a number of patents relating to desmodromics", so Roger you may be right after all.

I'm guessing that anyone wanting to make a desmodromic top end would have to build it in a different way to Ducati. ie Assuming Ducati has already refined the best solution over a period of 30 years or more, alternative designs may well be less efficient and sap more power.

Therefore making the manufacture think, oh well, it's easier to change the rules than to have to make a better design than Ducati. Not to mention the marketing embarassment of following your competitors...

Actually there is nothing barring other manufacturers from developing their own desmo system. The patents are either too old or irrelevant (Ducati's original patents were registered in the late 50's by the legendary engineer Taglioni, the father of Ducatis' desmo). I do not think there is much in todays's GP engine that has a connection with whatever was patented 50 years ago.

The real reason nobody is going that way is that desmo has not been used by anybody but Ducati in the last 50 years, so any new desmo system has to be developed by others from scratch and Ducati have such a development advantage with that system at the GP level that it would take anybody 2 or 3 years to become competitive.

With penumatic valves, instead, the way is wide open because the technology is well established in F1 and basic components and designs are available off the shelf to begin developing a solution. See how a pneumatic valve engine can be put together in a few months, and become competitive in less than a year. Pneumatic valves are competitive with desmo, even if - on paper - a little less efficient. In real life I think the two systems give comparable results.

The idea to limit the costs is ridiculous when proposed by giants like Honda and Yamaha who are competing against a small European outfit. Not to speak of the fact that a simpler way to make desmo or pneuimatic irrelevant is to go back to the 990cc!

I think Desmo valve trains are deemed "old Technology", so its not any matter of patents ..... pneumatic valvetrains can be made lighter and with less inertial mass etc.. Its more a case of Pneumatics are seen as the way of the future. In the past the electronics was not good enough to drive the pneumatics but now you will find all manners of tweaks are in there just to handle the pneumatics.

I think the problem here is some folk still can't get it through their heads that a LLLLOOOOTTTT of the 2007 win was due to Casey Stoner. So becasue his bike has desmo system they are still assuming this is why.

If you want to test the supposed Ducati advantage ( hence the Desmo advantage ) then apply the same assessment to each of the other Ducati riders for 2007.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 23 2008, 11:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you want to test the supposed Ducati advantage ( hence the Desmo advantage ) then apply the same assessment to each of the other Ducati riders for 2007.

Its a shame that people have had this reaction to the 2007 result, i feel a bit sorry for Stoner. However the people who actually matter know just how superior he was last year so i'm sure he doesn't lose much sleep over it, and i guess its a small downside that comes with beating one of the greatest riders of all time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 23 2008, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Its a shame that people have had this reaction to the 2007 result, i feel a bit sorry for Stoner. However the people who actually matter know just how superior he was last year so i'm sure he doesn't lose much sleep over it, and i guess its a small downside that comes with beating one of the greatest riders of all time.


i dont at all, ill give him credit for the win and because of his abitlity to ride the duke, but not so much beating everyone because his bike was "superior", the base setup is for stoner and stoner only hence thats why even marco cant get along with it and hes a dam good rider.

its a sad fact that the bike suits casey so much and its not such a universal machine that it can be setup for other riders, the bike doesnt seem to have many options either and it makes good riders look bad.

if stoner was having a custom built machine it would probably turnout exactly the way the bike is now he was a very very lucky guy to go to a team that has a machine so perfect you would swear it was custom built for him.

you gotta hand it to stoner tho even with the bikes superior performance hes the only guy that can ride the dam thing properly like a perfect harmony for bike and rider.

trouble is with you lot is this thread was about ducatis performance (top speed/rev range) advantage over other manufacturers but you still managed to bring casey into it anyway............

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 23 2008, 12:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Desmo valve trains are deemed "old Technology", so its not any matter of patents ..... pneumatic valvetrains can be made lighter and with less inertial mass etc.. Its more a case of Pneumatics are seen as the way of the future. In the past the electronics was not good enough to drive the pneumatics but now you will find all manners of tweaks are in there just to handle the pneumatics.

I think the problem here is some folk still can't get it through their heads that a LLLLOOOOTTTT of the 2007 win was due to Casey Stoner. So becasue his bike has desmo system they are still assuming this is why.

If you want to test the supposed Ducati advantage ( hence the Desmo advantage ) then apply the same assessment to each of the other Ducati riders for 2007.

We are commenting on the Jap manufacturers proposing a limit to 19,000 rpm... Which is obviously a way to address the speed advantage shown by Ducati in 2007, irrespective of the performances of Stoner vs other Ducati riders. It is them (the Japs) being apparently worried about that and considering that difference important. Maybe they're wrong

oh look out is see barry lurking another essay coming ????, maybe barry and pinky would suit eachother just like casey and ducati do

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Feb 23 2008, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>trouble is with you lot is this thread was about ducatis performance (top speed/rev range) advantage over other manufacturers but you still managed to bring casey into it anyway............

Because the top speed/rev advantage has been around since 2003 and nobody cared. Bikes (usually Honda) have had engine/top speed advantages for years and everyone knows that its worth nothing if the bike wont handle or isn't ridden properley. Yet everyone looks directly look past the one thing that changed and the one thing that can logically account for the difference. Furthermore the only bike whos development was compromised between two riders is Honda and there 07 results reflect that poor management decision.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 23 2008, 06:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yet everyone looks directly look past the one thing that changed and the one thing that can logically account for the difference.

The quality of Bridgestone tires?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 24 2008, 12:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Because the top speed/rev advantage has been around since 2003 and nobody cared.

Exactly ....



Now how come a few folk can "get it" easy as pie ..... but others


The limitting of revs, is a farce, we all know that! ..... but what conditions have prevailed ( what sort of environ ) has been set up for such farcical propositions to come forth ....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Feb 24 2008, 12:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>oh look out is see barry lurking another essay coming ????, maybe barry and pinky would suit eachother just like casey and ducati do


Well I seem to have a choice here :

Theres you ......... ( full of fairytale and myth and mindless idolisng you seem almost as with it as Andrew )

And there's Pinky ..... sure he jumps the gun to stir a bit ... but he hasn't been that far wrong so far

lolol give it time give it time...

i agree tho the rev thing is pathetic its been 1 season and everyone wants to throw there ideas into a bucket to get rules changed,

this sort of ignorance come from people like honda or yamaha, you got the yamaha guy whinging but wont try different configuration's they even didnt want to go pneumatic....

then you got honda that have had there pnuematic for like 5 minutes but goes pop when someone belts it, so want a limter to make it easy on themselves to stop there engine going bang.

why cant they be like suzuki or kawasaki

suzuki keep there mouths closed and just work harder try all sorts of things to get better performance like a new v4 and improved engine managment, hats off to them.

then you got kawasaki trying to up the horsepower and also going down a different configeration route (screamer wow), hats off to them also.

like i said before honda and yamaha got the cash and need to get with the program.