Should Ducati sack Hayden?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#27aus @ May 4 2009, 07:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>marco was in his third premier class season when his first win on non factory bike came... and 05 gresini surely enjoyed closer relationship with factory than lcr next season.
But marco won in france and came 3rd in catalunya in his rookie season plus 3 5th's and a 6th on the .... yamaha according to biaggi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ May 4 2009, 06:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As I say, I originally postulated the, as you put it 'crappy crew' theory only for it to be buried in the Qatar thread. Since then it has been disinterred, resurrected and given a new life of its own. You'll know this Jarno because you responded to my original post.

As I said at the time it was pure speculation, but, Christian Pupilan and his crew do not strike me as having the necessary level of communication, and lack the bond between rider, bike, and team to be currently competitive. The Rossi/crew combination is obviously exceptional, as is the marriage between Stoner and his Gabarrini lead crew. The same sort of synergy exchanges between Pedrosa and Leitner, Lorenzo and Forcada, even RDP and his long term sidekick Christophe 'Beefy' Bourguignon. One of the many reasons that Troy Bayliss was so successful and comfortable at Xerox Ducati in WSBK was down to his relationship with Ernesto Marinelli - IMO he is a major factor towards Nori Haga's immediate success on the bike.

In short, there has to be an understanding between rider and crew, and this is ultimately channeled through the crew chief. I'm not saying that Hayden has inherited a 'crappy crew', but I am saying that perhaps Pupulin isn't the best man for the job, and that the team do not function as a fluently as they should.

If we assume the chief man (or his team) are not up to the job, we are back to square 1: why should Ducati keep him/them after they failed to communicate/work properly with 3 top riders? Sheer masochism?

Or, reversing the scenario, is the team on that side of the Ducati garage suffering because their riders are regularly in deep .....? Not an easy mission for them, if really the bike is difficult for all but Casey... Bound to disappoint.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#27aus @ May 5 2009, 01:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>stoner - customer honda
rossi - factory honda
lorenzo - factory yamaha
hayden - factory honda (by far best bike on the grid)

and btw, rossi and lorenzo are superhumans also...
So we should really expect alot from Dovi - rookie year 5th and 174 points. By your logic he is way better than Stoner.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 4 2009, 07:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But marco won in france and came 3rd in catalunya in his rookie season plus 3 5th's and a 6th on the .... yamaha according to biaggi.

won in france? no, gibernau won in france. anyway, he was nowhere near close to victory like casey in turkey...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#27aus @ May 4 2009, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>won in france? no, gibernau won in france. anyway, he was nowhere near close to victory like casey in turkey...
ok my bad, got points and positions mixed up. but still 1 pole and one "nearly" win does not = "super human" imo.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ May 4 2009, 07:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So we should really expect alot from Dovi - rookie year 5th and 174 points. By your logic he is way better than Stoner.

better than stoner? time will tell, probably not because he dont have that raw speed in himself but he is certainly much better than hayden.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#27aus @ May 4 2009, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>better than stoner? time will tell, probably not because he dont have that raw speed in himself but he is certainly much better than hayden.
Hayden and stoner are equal on championships, 1 each. Racers want to win races but would sell there soul to win championships. rossi has 6 in the top class. there is only one super human rider on the grid in this era.
If you being patriotic and want a country man to be noted as "super human " then be realistic and shout doohan.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#27aus @ May 5 2009, 01:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>better than stoner? time will tell, probably not because he dont have that raw speed in himself but he is certainly much better than hayden.
Well you used Stoner's "superhuman" rookie season and your twisted logic to attempt to prove Stoner's superiority to Hayden... now you want to change tack when its pointed out that Dovi's rookie season on satellite machinery was far better than Casey's? You also threw Rossi & Jorge's downs into your argument to prove your point but backtracked when it was pointed out their rookie seasons were far better. Your not really good at this are you.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 4 2009, 07:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hayden and stoner are equal on championships, 1 each. Racers want to win races but would sell there soul to win championships. rossi has 6 in the top class. there is only one super human rider on the grid in this era.
If you being patriotic and want a country man to be noted as "super human " then be realistic and shout doohan.

stoner won his championship with 5x more wins than hayden did... his runner up performanes last year has been much better than haydens "championship" form... 3x more wins (against rossi), more points, more poles... casey is contender 3 years in a row now... hayden was contender only in one of his 7 seasons on factory honda/duc... so haydens championship doesnt have same weight as stoner or schwantz... even roberts was contender in 2 seasons.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ May 4 2009, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well you used Stoner's "superhuman" rookie season and your twisted logic to attempt to prove Stoner's superiority to Hayden... now you want to change tack when its pointed out that Dovi's rookie season on satellite machinery was far better than Casey's? You also threw Rossi & Jorge's downs into your argument to prove your point but backtracked when it was pointed out their rookie seasons were far better. Your not really good at this are you.

they had fair amount of crash also... despite jorge for example ride most rideable bike on the grid... and his season isnt so much better because he is true race winning contender only in one race... as stoner was on customer lcr without factory support...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#27aus @ May 4 2009, 07:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>stoner won his championship with 5x more wins than hayden did... his runner up performanes last year has been much better than haydens "championship" form... 3x more wins (against rossi), more points, more poles... casey is contender 3 years in a row now... hayden was contender only in one of his 7 seasons on factory honda/duc... so haydens championship doesnt have same weight as stoner or schwantz... even roberts was contender in 2 seasons.
A championship is a championship, to say it doesn't carry as much weight is to imply all season are the same with the same variables with in it. Stoner championship came in the first 800 season where the japs were caught with there pants down. Haydens came when the 990's were at the pinical and all the teams new what the other had and were doing. Hayden had 10 podiums that season.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#27aus @ May 5 2009, 01:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>they had fair amount of crash also... despite jorge for example ride most rideable bike on the grid... and his season isnt so much better because he is true race winning contender only in one race... as stoner was on customer lcr without factory support...
blah, blah, blah...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>(#27aus @ May 5 2009, 01:51 AM)
they had fair amount of crash also... despite jorge for example ride most rideable bike on the grid... and his season isnt so much better because he is true race winning contender only in one race... as stoner was on customer lcr without factory support...

its a fact the 800's carry way more corner speed that the 990 stoner was riding so to compare the 2 and there crashes is pretty ridiculous.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 4 2009, 07:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>A championship is a championship, to say it doesn't carry as much weight is to imply all season are the same with the same variables with in it. Stoner championship came in the first 800 season where the japs were caught with there pants down. Haydens came when the 990's were at the pinical and all the teams new what the other had and were doing. Hayden had 10 podiums that season.


he had 10 podiums but casey had 10 wins...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#27aus @ May 4 2009, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>he had 10 podiums but casey had 10 wins...
but only 6 the following year. is he loosing his super human powers ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 4 2009, 07:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>but only 6 the following year. is he loosing his super human powers ?

only 6? wait, thats 2x more than hayden had in 6 seasons on repsol honda and 3x more than hayden had in 2006.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ May 4 2009, 07:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>blah, blah, blah...

6810:qatar_ha...sh_qp_09.jpg]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#27aus @ May 4 2009, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>only 6? wait, thats 2x more than hayden had in 6 seasons on repsol honda and 3x more than hayden had in 2006.
yes but still significantly less than his super human year before. you keep dropping haydens name into this ? im not a hayden fan nor do i think he is better than casey. im just refuting your claim that casey is super human and was also in 06 !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#27aus @ May 4 2009, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>6810:qatar_ha...sh_qp_09.jpg]
her is a clearer pic for you

6811:stoner_crash.jpg]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 4 2009, 07:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yes but still significantly less than his super human year before. you keep dropping haydens name into this ? im not a hayden fan nor do i think he is better than casey. im just refuting your claim that casey is super human and was also in 06 !

cuz duc was significantly less competitive or yam and honda was more competitive than in 2007. but facts speaks for itself... after 2 seasons + 3 races on duc stoner vs teammates 17-1 in wins... btw that one win was more due to weather and tactics than capirossis pace...