Rossi vs Elias

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 8 2007, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thats twisting my words.
When I say dangerous is not in the sense of imininet danger, but in the sense that....
Nah man, I think you're doing the twisting of the words.

Uhm, when I say "twisting", I'm not saying like when I say “twisting” words, I don’t mean like warp or bend or curl or entwine or turn or weave or slant or loop or twirl or skew or…uhm I ran out of synonyms of twist, but I only have one left, oh yeah, "spin". You’re spinning your words. Kinda like twisting your words isn’t it?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ May 8 2007, 09:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nah man, I think you're doing the twisting of the words.

Uhm, when I say "twisting", I'm not saying like when I say “twisting” words, I don’t mean like warp or bend or curl or entwine or turn or weave or slant or loop or twirl or skew or…uhm I ran out of synonyms of twist, but I only have one left, oh yeah, "spin". You’re spinning your words. Kinda like twisting your words isn’t it?


But disapointingly nothing but ......... You got no better arguments than to google twisting? I guess that says it all. You know I'm right so let's end this now.

Babel you are wrong, as are all the other people with the "its elias every time" attitude. It is Elias every time if you count up all the times that he does something that seems so acceptable when others do it. What have you got? He took Rossi down in turn one hustle at Jerez, he put a hard pass on Rossi once, and he touched Hayden off the track in china. Compare this to Rossi bashing into Gibernau and Melandri in 2005, and then taking out DePuniet in le mans 2006. It always seems to be Rossi with the dangerous moves now doesn't it?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ May 8 2007, 05:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Let me compare this to the last time Hayden was T-boned. Portugal, Pedrosa, torpedo. When that happened, it was clearly a kamikaze move that was entirely Pedrosa’s fault. Yet even then some called it a “racing incident” (many of which I noticed were Rossi fans), However, I characterized it as jealously irresponsible reckless and blind with envy. But this had no such quality in my opinion. Nobody wants to see their guy taken out, and certainly I don’t think I have to convince you I’m a Hayden fan, but there are some racing incidents that happen when so many riders are in the same place at the same time. It’s unfortunate, but just as in Turkey with OJ and Pedrosa’s crash, I think it’s about the same unfortunate race circumstances that happened in China.

I know we have covered this before as well, but Pedrosa's Portugal effort was not "blind with envy" he is a professional with one of the coolest heads on the grid. He was 100% at fault for that move, and it is very different to a first corner move such as Elias made, because these things happen when many people go for one piece of track. The Pedrosa error was a large one due to the fact that they were team mates (although they are both guilty of being far too rough all season) and because of the championship circumstances. But i still consider this a racing incident, one rider tries too hard and makes an error and very unfortunately another is caught up in the accident.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 8 2007, 01:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Babel you are wrong, as are all the other people with the "its elias every time" attitude. It is Elias every time if you count up all the times that he does something that seems so acceptable when others do it. What have you got? He took Rossi down in turn one hustle at Jerez, he put a hard pass on Rossi once, and he touched Hayden off the track in china. Compare this to Rossi bashing into Gibernau and Melandri in 2005, and then taking out DePuniet in le mans 2006. It always seems to be Rossi with the dangerous moves now doesn't it?
Agree

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 8 2007, 02:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I know we have covered this before as well, but Pedrosa's Portugal effort was not "blind with envy" he is a professional with one of the coolest heads on the grid. He was 100% at fault for that move, and it is very different to a first corner move such as Elias made, because these things happen when many people go for one piece of track. The Pedrosa error was a large one due to the fact that they were team mates (although they are both guilty of being far too rough all season) and because of the championship circumstances. But i still consider this a racing incident, one rider tries too hard and makes an error and very unfortunately another is caught up in the accident.
Disagree.

Rossi is just whining because he didnt like being passed, Mamola made me laugh about when he said he asked Rossi about when he passed Sete agressively and his reply was simply 'that was different' ... that said it all

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 8 2007, 10:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Babel you are wrong, as are all the other people with the "its elias every time" attitude. It is Elias every time if you count up all the times that he does something that seems so acceptable when others do it. What have you got? He took Rossi down in turn one hustle at Jerez, he put a hard pass on Rossi once, and he touched Hayden off the track in china. Compare this to Rossi bashing into Gibernau and Melandri in 2005, and then taking out DePuniet in le mans 2006. It always seems to be Rossi with the dangerous moves now doesn't it?

What exactly am I wrong about?
That both incidents on the two last races where racing incidents?
That Elias seems to be riding on the edge?
That Rossi sometimes does the same?
That Rossi in the end is a better rider than Elias?
Just because you can come up with a list that YOU think represent Rossis "achivements" the last three years doesn't make it the right list.
So, again, were was I wrong?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 8 2007, 12:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What exactly am I wrong about?
That both incidents on the two last races where racing incidents?
That Elias seems to be riding on the edge?
That Rossi sometimes does the same?
That Rossi in the end is a better rider than Elias?
Just because you can come up with a list that YOU think represent Rossis "achivements" the last three years doesn't make it the right list.
So, again, were was I wrong?

Earlier you said in the context of Elias that racing incidents are fine, but if its the same rider every time then something should be done. I am just showing you that even racers of the highest level sometime mis judge things and a list of incidents can be compiled for many riders. Elias is not any more dangerous than any rider pushing for the top spots in a tough motogp race.

agreed

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 8 2007, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Earlier you said in the context of Elias that racing incidents are fine, but if its the same rider every time then something should be done.
And I stand by that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I am just showing you that even racers of the highest level sometime mis judge things and a list of incidents can be compiled for many riders.

And a (questionable) list of three incidents over the last three seasons shold prove frequent dangerous riding, or? I don't understand.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 8 2007, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Elias is not any more dangerous than any rider pushing for the top spots in a tough motogp race.

So when I say: "That remains too be seen" that is what you get all worked up about?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 8 2007, 01:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1.A questionable list of three incidents over the last three seasons shold show a list of frequent dangerous incidents?

2.So when I say: "That remains too be seen" that is what you get all worked up about?

1. The events i listed all happened in a span of 22 races. The Elias incidents in question have happened over a 21 race span, its almost the same. Except that in two of the cases the Rossi move has been more dangerous and had more severe consequences than Elias has managed.

2. I was just telling you i disagreed with what you had said, you appear to have gotten pretty worked up about it because i have shown how the best rider in the world can be considered as much of a liability as the man you consider "reckless"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 8 2007, 08:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. The events i listed all happened in a span of 22 races. The Elias incidents in question have happened over a 21 race span, its almost the same. Except that in two of the cases the Rossi move has been more dangerous and had more severe consequences than Elias has managed.

2. I was just telling you i disagreed with what you had said, you appear to have gotten pretty worked up about it because i have shown how the best rider in the world can be considered as much of a liability as the man you consider "reckless"

Tom, you just forgot Stoner complains in FPs, I am not saying that Rossi’s complains were ok… but in your race span (21/22 years) are more than just racing time in both cases.

Anyway, I do think it’s part of the risk, they’re ‘Racing Incidents’ ok. But what Elias needs to do is learn from his mistakes as any other good rider has, this in respect to others, but the main thing I see is that he has to deal with this increase in risk himself, towards his own results. Maybe he’ll just keep on losing important points or contributing to the loss of others, hope not hurting anyone. As an example we obviously have Rossi/Jerez last year. But this season, and now that Hayden is struggling to get the grips with the bike, man, has Elias lower his chances of leveling up a bit! What if Elias takes him down again? Or maybe it’ll be Hopkins now that finally he’s up for a podium, in which case I see an ‘kicked in the butt’ Elias. Or maybe it’ll be Pedrosa now that Honda is struggling with their bike, so Elias could anti-help the cause! You never know mate and life works in a mysterious way (nah, to philosophical that last bit!)…

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stop_killing_dead_things @ May 8 2007, 02:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi is just whining because he didnt like being passed, Mamola made me laugh about when he said he asked Rossi about when he passed Sete agressively and his reply was simply 'that was different' ... that said it all
Hey Rossi base crapping on Elias, what you gotta say about that? Called on the carpet and we get a cop out.

I hope Elias doesn't go soft and lose his aggression because the top two contenders so far are bitching about his "dangerous" riding. Casey had a reputation for crashing; so far it looks like he has improved. I'm glad there wasn't to many guys affected by his crashing last year, so maybe he can have some compassion upon Elias and see that the edge of the limit is where they all have to be to be competitive.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ May 8 2007, 08:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Tom, you just forgot Stoner complains in FPs, I am not saying that Rossi’s complains were ok… but in your race span (21/22 years) are more than just racing time in both cases.

I don't really understand your point here. I didn't think we were talking about Stoner, but he is the most whining rider on the grid by miles and i don't bother taking his moaning too seriously. Also i was talking about 21/22 races not years, so not much bigger than a season


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ May 8 2007, 09:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm glad there wasn't to many guys affected by his crashing last year

He broke Gibernau's collarbone and put Lucio Checchinello's wallet in intensive care.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 8 2007, 01:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He broke Gibernau's collarbone and put Lucio Checchinello's wallet in intensive care.
Stoner is dangerous!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ May 8 2007, 09:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner is dangerous!
he was last season,but he seems to have learned. will elias ? i hope so.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 8 2007, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. The events i listed all happened in a span of 22 races. The Elias incidents in question have happened over a 21 race span, its almost the same. Except that in two of the cases the Rossi move has been more dangerous and had more severe consequences than Elias has managed.

2. I was just telling you i disagreed with what you had said, you appear to have gotten pretty worked up about it because i have shown how the best rider in the world can be considered as much of a liability as the man you consider "reckless"

You disapoint me if you think you have showed me anything. That even the best drivers make mistakes is not exactly news, even I've made mistakes on the track

But now I'm getting tired of this. Put up as manny lists you like.
Elias has had two incidents in as many races, thats what I'm talking about. Only lately there has been any focus on him, except for the thing at Jerez last year. Now that he is more often among the top runners he also have tougher fights. As I said, if he is a real danger remains to be seen.

I find your rating of the '05 Jerez thing funny. It's was similar to this years Turkey thing, except it was a last corner attac and Gib had no one to blame but himslef and his half harted line. He had to be a ...... to think Rossi wouldn't try. Why didn't he do like Stoner at the end of the backstraight last race. He had that option, plenty of space, grip and time, but I guess he just lost his head as he allways did when pressured. Btw, that was an option Rossi didn't have at Istanbull. Tightly locked in position next to Elias as he was all the way down to the slippery part.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 8 2007, 10:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Elias has had two incidents in as many races

2. Gib had no one to blame but himslef and his half harted line. He had to be a ...... to think Rossi wouldn't try.

1. Thats only if overtaking Rossi is considered an incident, which it shouldn't be because he is actually just another rider.

2.If i was Sete and i was placing blame, i'd got for the guy on the Kamikaze line barely in control of his bike who crashed into him (on the racing line) and then proceeded to the outside white line, barely staying on track himself

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 8 2007, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Thats only if overtaking Rossi is considered an incident, which it shouldn't be because he is actually just another rider.

2.If i was Sete and i was placing blame, i'd got for the guy on the Kamikaze line barely in control of his bike who crashed into him (on the racing line) and then proceeded to the outside white line, barely staying on track himself

1.If i was Rossi and i was placing blame, i'd got for the guy on the Kamikaze line barely in control of his bike who crashed into him (on the straight and later in the turn) and then proceeded in his wil slide, barely staying on track himself

2. Thats only if overtaking Sete is considered an incident, which it shouldn't be because he is actually just another rider.


Different points of view I guess.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 8 2007, 10:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1.If i was Rossi and i was placing blame, i'd got for the guy on the Kamikaze line barely in control of his bike who crashed into him (on the straight and later in the turn) and then proceeded in his wil slide, barely staying on track himself

2. Thats only if overtaking Sete is considered an incident, which it shouldn't be because he is actually just another rider.
Different points of view I guess.

Yes, the difference being i formed mine before i ordered my ticket to "Rossi Land", You seem to know your stuff and make some good points, but some of your posts have to be taken with a pinch of salt because of the inherent bias in them. As if you actually think Jerez 05 is Setes fault, and even if you do reach that wild conclusion, shouldn't Rossi (with tire trouble) have known Elias was gonna outbreak him at the circuits primary passing spot and got the hell out the way?