Rossi vs Elias

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mbracing @ May 7 2007, 02:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Looking at the crash on Sunday Elias is to blame, Rossi had a valid point, but no one has mentioned that Stoner has also made a complaint about Elias this was in free practice in Turkey.

Anyway Elias has peaked early so we will not see him for the rest of the season.

Somewhere back in there it was mentioned 'mb' mate! And it were a couple of times from Stoner and in a couple of tracks too (but only in FPs) I think...

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!!!!

When so many riders and fans are saying the same thing MAYBE ITS TRUE!!!!!!

Good job Elias is beyond reproach!

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mbracing @ May 7 2007, 03:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Looking at the crash on Sunday Elias is to blame, Rossi had a valid point, but no one has mentioned that Stoner has also made a complaint about Elias this was in free practice in Turkey.

Anyway Elias has peaked early so we will not see him for the rest of the season.

I agree 100%. I think people are praising his brand of reckless abandon for excitement. They keep mentioning statements like "Duuuhhhh!!! I watched the race and it was clean..Duuuhhh!" How clean would it seem to you if you were the one on the other bike? Probably not so much. As far as Rossi saying something, I think it is his duty to speak up. He is a 7-time champion, and as such he has earned the right to voice his opinion about an individual who does not seem to understand the concept of finding a way around fellow competitors. When he wears out his welcome in Motogp there will probably be a place for him in NASCAR. They seem to like destruction and mayhem.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 5 2007, 12:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What's hillarious here is the besserwissers that seems to rate the riders 90% on their behaviours off the track. "Rossi lost a lot of respect", the comment "speaks volumes about the guy" is just two of many comments that seems to decide "my rating of the driver/is the rider worthy of me cheering for him".

I'm not saying personality and statements play no role in my rating of the drivers, but I would rather switch the importance to 10/90. That put the importance of quick post race comment after a disapointing race into some perspective.
Hi Babel, you make some good points on your post, but to me it seems more like spinning to try and deflect the poor sportsmanship that Rossi expressed. Now you go admit that yes it does have something to do with the rider but you would like it to be of very minor importance. I agree. However, it smack of spinning because in this case they are taking about your guy Rossi who stuck his foot in his mouth, and of course Roger is quick to agree (which really doesn't help your case). And so you go on to make a case that we should look at on-track performance. But let me ask you this about the Rossi camp. How have they predominately treated Max Biaggi's comments in relation to his performance? I ask you this because I have always admired Biaggi and have attributed his vilification to the fact that he dad the audacity to challenge the beloved Rossi. He has been terribly disrespect and vilified, and this from a man who has the most wins of any non-champion in the history of the sport in the premiere class. Then it became Sete's turn to be vilified, and not for his on track performance (which if you check out his carrer wins, you will find similar to Biaggi) but for his comments. And by who, I submit, by the Rossi base. Now comes along this kid Toni Elias. He challenges Rossi, puts a pass on him of the same type that I have seen Rossi put on others, and now the vilification of Elias begins.

Elias put in an aggressive move on the turn this weekend that effectively took out some riders out of the race. As a Hayden fan, it was terrible to see my guy affected. But after reviewing the race a few times, I don't feel that his move was over the top and reckless, but rather aggressive in a place where several racers were demanding the same piece of real estate. Let me compare this to the last time Hayden was T-boned. Portugal, Pedrosa, torpedo. When that happened, it was clearly a kamikaze move that was entirely Pedrosa’s fault. Yet even then some called it a “racing incident” (many of which I noticed were Rossi fans), However, I characterized it as jealously irresponsible reckless and blind with envy. But this had no such quality in my opinion. Nobody wants to see their guy taken out, and certainly I don’t think I have to convince you I’m a Hayden fan, but there are some racing incidents that happen when so many riders are in the same place at the same time. It’s unfortunate, but just as in Turkey with OJ and Pedrosa’s crash, I think it’s about the same unfortunate race circumstances that happened in China.

I've been reading through this thread, and in every posts I feel like something was amiss. Like you have to both agree and disagree on something.

Well, here's my take on it. Rossi probably has a point. I have to agree that, though the moves were clean, Elias was one hell of a driver and I'm just glad they both stayed on the bike during those moments.

BUT

I also have to note that he could have used a better way of expressing his opinions. Because I feel that, if structured in another way, it wouldn't have appeared like he's whining. Just rossi giving another opinion.


Simple as is.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 7 2007, 07:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And that make it OK?
I didn't like it then and I don't like it now.
Capirossi had too many of those a few years back and I hated it. He has changed and gotten a lot more resposible.
That kind of racing is what you shold learn to lay off in the smaller clases where the speed and weight are much lower.
If Elias is not blaming Hayden at least he is blaming the events and he does it wrongfully so. Hayden didn't close his line, he did however slow down a tiny bit as he got intimidated of de puniet on the outside. He was on the same line as elias and there is no way Elias could get through there. Blaming something what happened on the events are the same as not making an applogy, and making up excuses for a very bad judgment.
Shows that he has learned nothing and might be just a dangerous in later events.

This epiosode make me wonder if Rossi wasn't out of line after all.
There are lots of tiny details we can't possibly see on the telly, and what we did see was at least one touch totally uncalled for. Maybe, just maybe there were some of those unseen details together with what we saw that made Rossi burst out. Besides, the guy seem to have a reputation in the padock so again maybe it's a lot more hold to what Rossi said after all.
Ok, I gotta quote your entire post here. There is just too much meat for me to pass up. I agree with some point here. You are right in saying that there should be alittle more responsibility on the approach to the first turn of the race. As I see it, you got your starting position by virtue of your qualifying, and to try to make up for a ...... grid spot you earned, by trying to banzai to get a better position on the start and first turn is simply voracious. So no, I agree with you, I don’t think it makes it ok. If you want a better starting position, then have a better qualifying. Then sort it out in the race. As they say so many times, you can’t win the race on the first lap, but you can certainly lose it. And certainly this has been detrimental to others that had already negotiated the turn successfully, only to be taken out by a late breaking rear rider that made a racing mistake.

I also agree with you that Elias’ comments and explanation are far from taking responsibility. And for this I have to file his comments under: “mothafuckers who don’t admit their mistakes”, joining the likes of Rossi and Pedrosa. (Funny thing is, I haven’t heard Roger trying to spin that perhaps Elias’ comments were hampered by poor translation, as he did when Melandri and Rossi made .... comments).

However, her is the thing, you make a case and chastise first lap maneuvers that are detrimental to other riders, and site Capirossi as one that had some greedy overtaking, but you make no mention of Rossi’s greedy overtaking, like the one he did last year that made a rider go off the track. Selective memory perhaps? So If you are going to make issue about irresponsible and greedy overtaking on the first lap to gain position, like you say Elias is guilty of, then I think you need to include Rossi on that list.

But for you to go back and revise your take on Rossi’s comments (whine) and giving him a pass doesn’t sit well with me. The guy whined, if not worse than what he said about Sete and Pedrosa manning up. Well, it seems, he needs to look in the mirror when he’s sticking his foot in his mouth and telling other riders to: Man up.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 7 2007, 05:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. so ,does everybody still feel rossi was whinning or being a sore loser or do you fell like me that he has a point.

2. yes there all "racing incidents"but when its always the same rider involved and riders has complained i think you have to sit up and take notice.

3. imo the people who try and defend him by saying "but he's exciting to watch" are more than likely the same people who like watching the crashes but i wouldnt expect them to admit that.
elias blames others for his mistakes but takes no flak for it but we have a whole thread devoted to rossis complaint.
1. I still feel Rossi was a whining ..... and a sore loser.
2. Its not always the same guy, at Turkey it was OJ and Pedrosa.
3. If you like you can start your very own thread about Elias' comments. But it still won't change correct answer number 1. above.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ May 8 2007, 06:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hi Babel, you make some good points on your post, but to me it seems more like spinning to try and deflect the poor sportsmanship that Rossi expressed. Now you go admit that yes it does have something to do with the rider but you would like it to be of very minor importance. I agree. However, it smack of spinning because in this case they are taking about your guy Rossi who stuck his foot in his mouth, and of course Roger is quick to agree (which really doesn't help your case). And so you go on to make a case that we should look at on-track performance. But let me ask you this about the Rossi camp. How have they predominately treated Max Biaggi's comments in relation to his performance? I ask you this because I have always admired Biaggi and have attributed his vilification to the fact that he dad the audacity to challenge the beloved Rossi. He has been terribly disrespect and vilified, and this from a man who has the most wins of any non-champion in the history of the sport in the premiere class. Then it became Sete's turn to be vilified, and not for his on track performance (which if you check out his carrer wins, you will find similar to Biaggi) but for his comments. And by who, I submit, by the Rossi base. Now comes along this kid Toni Elias. He challenges Rossi, puts a pass on him of the same type that I have seen Rossi put on others, and now the vilification of Elias begins.

So far you are doing ok Jumkie, I mean, it all valid even suspecting me for protecting my man, and you are right. I am. So what, it doesn't make it less true or more of a spinn. I still agree Rossi's comment was uncalled for, but wanteed to put that into some perspective. As you see in another post that comment has been discussed for some legth in three different threds and I guess the anti Rossi wave gets to me as the anti Hayden wave got to you.

As for Biaggi, you have to look further back. I'm not a specialist, but I did stay in Milan a few months and met another Rossi fan, an he told me lots of stories about max and Vale. Remember Max was allready the Emperor of Rome, when Rossi started his career. A very ipnosed emeror. Guess who started it?

Sete? To me sete was all about race finishes and failures, a dosen or so. That he came back to the padock complaining is not my point against him. Just like so many of that time he didn't put up the sufficient will to win and failed. That's really all I got to say about him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Elias put in an aggressive move on the turn this weekend that effectively took out some riders out of the race. As a Hayden fan, it was terrible to see my guy affected. But after reviewing the race a few times, I don't feel that his move was over the top and reckless, but rather aggressive in a place where several racers were demanding the same piece of real estate. Let me compare this to the last time Hayden was T-boned. Portugal, Pedrosa, torpedo. When that happened, it was clearly a kamikaze move that was entirely Pedrosa’s fault. Yet even then some called it a “racing incident” (many of which I noticed were Rossi fans), However, I characterized it as jealously irresponsible reckless and blind with envy. But this had no such quality in my opinion. Nobody wants to see their guy taken out, and certainly I don’t think I have to convince you I’m a Hayden fan, but there are some racing incidents that happen when so many riders are in the same place at the same time. It’s unfortunate, but just as in Turkey with OJ and Pedrosa’s crash, I think it’s about the same unfortunate race circumstances that happened in China.

Now this is where your "anti rossi fan googles" ™ came on. If the real estate are so limited it's suecide to blast into the area with that speed. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't this happen to late in the turn for being a result of late braking, so he didn't even have that as an excuse and you still find that a small racing incident while the Pedrosa one was the big scandal?
You lost me there. I can hardly see any difference what so ever.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ May 7 2007, 06:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'><u>"I was behind Hayden when he was closing his line towards the kerb and I had no choice but to collide with his rear wheel and crash," said Elias...</u>


'No Choice'... Crap on Elias, it's not like he is admitting his mistake is it?

But we've never have had a similar case with someone admitting his error unless we look way back in history up to, let me Google it... oh, ok, found it: Istanbul 07! There Jaque admitted his mistake!
Whats up big V?

This post just cracked me up.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ May 7 2007, 11:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have always admired Biaggi...

First point Jumkie… Biaggi was in MotoGP way before Rossi meaning that really Rossi came in to challenge experienced riders already in the field not “have attributed his vilification to the fact dad he that the audacity to challenge the beloved Rossi”, he wasn’t as beloved in MotoGP just for his previous years! Gibernau was a great rider but did put in a couple of ‘Dramas’, in fact, complained about Rossi when he had takes of his own just not to riders in content!

Elias did come in and challenge Rossi so let the ‘vilification’ begin! (It’s a joke)…

Anyway, my only point would be that, even though you and I do not agree with Puig blaming Hayden and clearly think it was Kamikaze, it’s like at least once a year that Elias finds himself knocking other riders in first turns of first laps. I already agreed, maybe he needs not apology because it’s racing, but mate, he has not learned and that’s what makes him dangerous!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (somedamnwriter @ May 7 2007, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just rossi giving another opinion. Simple as is...

And yes damnwriter, Rossi should not have complained in the heat of the moment and probably bring it up just as another point at a Safety Commission Meeting or whatever the process is…

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ May 8 2007, 12:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whats up big V?

This post just cracked me up.

What's up Jumkie, how are you mate?

Isn't it true man, Elias just needs to learn from it... I believe Jaque maybe older but does realize the problem so it makes a difference, doesn't it?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ May 7 2007, 08:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>…

Poor old Barros and Hofmann, they were in it too and need respect also… Yes, Elias has a lot of apologizing to do!

You're killing me man. But yeah, you're right. Poor Barros would have done pretty well I think too. And Hofman, he beat Rossi las race didn't he?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ May 7 2007, 10:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>First point Jumkie… Biaggi was in MotoGP way before Rossi meaning (bla bla bla)...
Yeah but you guys hate them just the same. And not because of their shortcomings on the track but because of their rivalry with your boy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ May 8 2007, 12:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You're killing me man. But yeah, you're right. Poor Barros would have done pretty well I think too. And Hofman, he beat Rossi las race didn't he?

There you go... Hofmann needs a bit of respect too... in addition to the above statement he also got ran off track by Elias and still managed a 9th!



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ May 8 2007, 12:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah but you guys hate them just the same. And not because of their shortcomings on the track but because of their rivalry with your boy.

Yeap, I get what you mean... so I must say, I don't hate Biaggi just dislike him intensely! (it’s a joke mate, I do admire his riding as much).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 7 2007, 08:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He is riding like Rossi do in his most motivated moments. Very much on the edge, lots of two wheel slides and so on, and it's entertaining but also dangerous. The difference is that Elias does it most of the time, Rossi only when absolutly nessesary to win.
There you have it boys, you can be dangerous, as long as its when its "absolutly nessesary to win."

Uhm....no, not a double standard. Who has their Rossie colored goggles on?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ May 8 2007, 12:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There you have it boys, you can be dangerous, as long as its when its "absolutly nessesary to win."

Uhm....no, not a double standard. Who has their Rossie colored goggles on?

Me, Me, Me... I do, I do, I do!!!


Just joking mate, you know me try to stick it fair above mindless cheerleading! (both ways ya know)...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ToniElias @ May 7 2007, 08:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I won't apologise to nobody . So, I am no expert in this area so I don't know who to blame about that incident. But faulty or not, but for me Elias driving style is the most spectacular on the grid, crazy or not. So I hope he will finish next race. He is just a God on a bike
Dude, is it me or do you sound totally wasted man. BTW, you are wrong about one thing for sure, there is only one god in MotoGP, and his name is Rossi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ May 8 2007, 12:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Dude, is it me or do you sound totally wasted man. BTW, you are wrong about one thing for sure, there is only one god in MotoGP, and his name is Rossi.


1712:attachment]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ralph f @ May 7 2007, 11:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>its whining
Rossi should start being such a baby
I guess it is me whos on drugs cuz it sounds like you just said, "Rossi should start being such a baby."

WTF?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ May 8 2007, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I guess it is me whos on drugs cuz it sounds like you just said, "Rossi should start being such a baby."

WTF?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mbracing @ May 7 2007, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Looking at the crash on Sunday Elias is to blame, Rossi had a valid point, but no one has mentioned that Stoner has also made a complaint about Elias this was in free practice in Turkey.

Anyway Elias has peaked early so we will not see him for the rest of the season.
Uhm, I said something, I said: "stonerossi should both shut the .... up and race." This is a man's sport boys (well at least until we get some girls that won't ..... like these two).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogunski @ May 7 2007, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree 100%. I think people are praising his brand of reckless abandon for excitement. They keep mentioning statements like "Duuuhhhh!!! I watched the race and it was clean..Duuuhhh!" How clean would it seem to you if you were the one on the other bike? Probably not so much. As far as Rossi saying something, I think it is his duty to speak up. He is a 7-time champion, and as such he has earned the right to voice his opinion about an individual who does not seem to understand the concept of finding a way around fellow competitors. When he wears out his welcome in Motogp there will probably be a place for him in NASCAR. They seem to like destruction and mayhem.
First of all, why do you gotta take a shot at NASCAR like that? Besides, I don't think Elias could reach the pedals.

Anyway, It was refreshing last week to see some Rossi fans coming out and chastising him for that whining post race comments. I guess it lasted for only one week. Here is the thing, regardless of what happened this race, Rossi still made some ..... comments last race. Even if Elias' starts the total destruction of the planet next week, it still doesn't change the fact that the pass he made on your boy was clean, and the sore loser comments that Rossi made about it were chicken ..... So please man, stop rationalizing it, revising history, and spinning it in hindsight. Uhm, just my humble opinion of course.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ May 8 2007, 07:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There you have it boys, you can be dangerous, as long as its when its "absolutly nessesary to win."

Uhm....no, not a double standard. Who has their Rossie colored goggles on?

Thats twisting my words.
When I say dangerous is not in the sense of imininet danger, but in the sense that any mistakes cost more, often a DNF, and that you are pushing your luck.
I don't regard Elias as good as Rossi in doing so, add that to that he is on the edge all the time, I'm sure you can do the math.
I think it's called risk management.