Rossi on the Ducati and the Future

Exactly.. It doesnt make sense, yet thats exactly what Duc did. Instead of fixing the problem they threw duct tape at it while Honda and Yamaha consistently got better.

Duc are blinkered and have been a while like anything Big or corporate

in this sport they dont take or listen to criticism



can anyone really see 2013 parmac or factory bike being any better

jeez most CRP Might up there game in 2013 and swallow them up



what makes me laugh too is the riders everyone and there mother can see the

situation there in and have been a while

if i was a motogp rider i wouldnt touch it with a 15ft barge pole



maybe its all about the pay/cheque/day rather than any self esteem

just look at Colin pfft he's happy ?? and signed again ?? dont try and tell me its about the sport/bike

€€ / ££ / $$

birdman said:

You propose in 2008 Ducati watched in awe and amazement as Rossi out developed them and thought, gee we need to hire those guys. So they came up with an elaborate plan to make offers to Lorenzo and Pedro, knowing this would be the bait to lure the big fish of JB/Rossi? No. Ducati thought they had the bike all the way up until Valencia 2011. Rossi and JB thought they had a winning bike as well.



This continued idea that Rossi/JB were hired as some sort of savior to redevelop a flawed bike makes no sense. If Rossi was aware the bike was this flawed there is no way in hell he would have gone. They went there to win and figured it would be a piece of cake.

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Your entire rebuttal is based on a faulty assumption that if a team respects the competence of its competitors, the team will drop everything and try to hire them immediately. Really? No team has ever competed against someone for multiple seasons and then hired them away?!



Furthermore, you're not even aware that Ducati hired Rossi to make the bike more rider friendly. In 2007 and 2008, Ducati believed the bike was infallible, once infamously requesting that Melandri see a sports psychologist to fix his brain, after he said the GP8 was unrideable. When Hayden came on board, Ducati stopped blaming the riders for the lack of performance, and by 2011, Ducati was openly admitting that they needed to develop a more rider friendly bike.



Ducati's desire for development was in the public domain. Hiring someone is generally a vote of confidence. 2+2=4. Ducati wanted to develop the bike, they thought Rossi/Burgess were competent. What would have given Ducati that idea? The 2008 season when Rossi/Burgess/Furusawa outdeveloped Ducati, despite using Bridgestones for the first time.

xx CURVE xx said:

And you and your-kind cant accept that Ducat engineers didnt listen to VR/JB feedback and failed to develop the bike as needed to be competitive.

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What he said.

thedeal said:

No i dont exept that,why would they pay 20 mill for VR and more for JB and the team just to not listen,that makes no sense at all,there are much deeper problems here.

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why did they pay all that money to their previous riders & not listen?

Goatboy said:

why did they pay all that money to their previous riders & not listen?

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Goatboy you are stretching it here,,,none of the previous were Valentino and his 9 wc and goat status you are so keen on or did they take 20 mill out of the pot,for all Ducati's .... ups your hero HAS to take his fair share of the ....,if it wasnt about the money he would have said .... the contract and walked as soon as he realised Ducati couldnt/wouldnt deliver what he and the other so called god (JB) said they needed to do to turn the project around,no they stayed made no forward motion but got very well paid.



Rossi, JB and the crew are as equally to blame as Ducati.



edit,, in fact when you say .... like we dont know how good that bike is cos Casey isnt riding it very hard you deserv all you get,Casey rode that pos harder than anyone ever has so .... em

cliché guevara said:

i think you got me wrong. sure he could have stayed - on equal terms with jorge. something that was unacceptable to him.

with his pride blocking his way to stay at yamaha he had no other choice but go. and in 2010 the ducati certainly wasn't seen as bad as it is now, ducati wanted "an alien" and he was the only one available.i think not even spies in his 2010 form was a real alternative to hiring one of the top 4.

bad choices,yes.

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What do you mean by 'equal terms'?



If you mean equal technical treatment, first you should explain why you think it wasn't equal since Lorenzo himself proudly declares that "I have beaten Rossi on the same equipment"; no doubt he would have informed the world had it been that he was able to beat Rossi in spite of being technically discriminated (I do not think Yamaha does that, even if this year with Spies I had a few doubts)..



If you mean economic treatment, yes, what really made Rossi furious was that they proposed him a pay cut to give a raise to Lorenzo. It wasn't so much the money, it was the pride; #1, #2 etc..

Imho, the right thing to do for him would have been to accept, stay, and beat Lorenzo. A younger Rossi would have at least tried that. But his big ego and his pride made him take the wrong decision, issue Yamaha the famous "ultimatum", and so he went the wrong way.



Now a humbled Rossi will try a fresh start exactly from that point. (But it's late now, I think).

J4rn0 said:

What do youi mean by 'equal terms'?



If you mean equal technical treatment, first you should explain why you think it wasn't equal since Lorenzo himself proudly declares that "I have beaten Rossi on the same equipment"; no doubt he would have informed the world had it been that he was able to beat Rossi in spite of being technically discriminated (I do not think Yamaha does that, even if this year with Spies I had a few doubts)..



If you mean economic treatment, yes, what really made Rossi furious was that they proposed him a pay cut to give a raise to Lorenzo. It wasn't so much the money, it was the pride; #1, #2 etc..

Imho, the right thing to do for him would have been to accept, stay, and beat Lorenzo. A younger Rossi would have at least tried that. But his big ego and his pride made him take the wrong decision, issue Yamaha the famous "ultimatum", and so he went the wrong way.



Now a humbled Rossi will try a fresh start exactly from that point. (But it's late now, I think).

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Far to late,and to be honest buddy the wall in the garage and the no sharing of data was the mark of the man,so Jorge worked it out for himself and beat him fair and square and thats the mark of the better man.

Anyway it doesnt matter what the goat does next year as Marques will be smoking his ... by the 4th round and chasing Pedro and Jorge for the win by the middle of the season,face facts Rossi is the past.

J4rn0 said:

What do youi mean by 'equal terms'?



If you mean equal technical treatment, first you should explain why you think it wasn't equal since Lorenzo himself proudly declares that "I have beaten Rossi on the same equipment"; no doubt he would have informed the world had it been that he was able to beat Rossi in spite of being technically discriminated (I do not think Yamaha does that, even if this year with Spies I had a few doubts)..



If you mean economic treatment, yes, what really made Rossi furious was that they proposed him a pay cut to give a raise to Lorenzo. It wasn't so much the money, it was the pride; #1, #2 etc..

Imho, the right thing to do for him would have been to accept, stay, and beat Lorenzo. A younger Rossi would have at least tried that. But his big ego and his pride made him take the wrong decision, issue Yamaha the famous "ultimatum", and so he went the wrong way.



Now a humbled Rossi will try a fresh start exactly from that point. (But it's late now, I think).

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by equal terms i mean precisely what you explained with economic treatment and hence a sort of pecking order.

i totally agree that he should have swallowed his pride and try to re-position himself as yamahas favorite son by beating jorge in 2011,if more pay is so important to him,albeit for ego reasons.

i don't want to call rossi chicken but i have a feeling that it had more to do with him not wanting to compete with a stronger,more mature jorge and the financial situation and possibly the lure of beating stoner in a way by winning on the ducati were just too many cards in line for him to not take the offer.

i am really looking forward to see rossi on the yamaha again, i used to really like the guy until he went all megalomaniac sometime in the 800 era IMO. a more humble rossi with a realistic assessement of his opposition should be big threat for the championship. i'm not him so i can't say how hungry he is for success but i'd like to think if hes willing to take a big paycut and continuing the jorge feud that he's highly motivated.

and he's still quite a few years away from being handicapped by age and he's not banged up like most other riders on the field.

at least the next 2-3 years we could very well see the best of valentino rossi

thedeal said:

Goatboy you are stretching it here

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All the previous riders got a payday I would love to have. All the previous riders (including King Casey) said there were problems. None of the previous riders were listened to. It really is that simple.

because still one of those riders was winning, and when he wasn't it was widely attributed to his supposed mental weakness,not the bike.

it took rossis complete and utter failure on the bike for them to realize ,or should i say forced to realize because you don't want to mess with his fans, that they maybe got the horsepower right, but nothing else.

thedeal said:

Far to late,and to be honest buddy the wall in the garage and the no sharing of data was the mark of the man,so Jorge worked it out for himself and beat him fair and square and thats the mark of the better man.

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The wall was installed by Bridgestone and Michelin in 2008, not by Rossi, to protect their secrets; Rossi (but not only him) liked that privacy and asked to keep it also afterwards when it wasn't necessary any more since all were on Bridgestones, but that's different from demanding that a wall be erected from scratch (as many seem to imply; and I doubt Yamaha would have complied). The telemetry data was actually always shared, the only thing they seem to have stopped for some time was the sharing of the setup data during race weekends (which was immaterial since Lorenzo's setup turned out to be very different from Rossi's, and often better thanks to Forcada). All these things were just a sign of bitter rivalry. Being jealous of setup secrets is something very normal among riders and crews, The tricks played by Rossi and JB in their Honda days to prevent other Honda riders from reading their setup data before the races are well known.

cliché guevara said:

because still one of those riders was winning, and when he wasn't it was widely attributed to his supposed mental weakness,not the bike.

it took rossis complete and utter failure on the bike for them to realize ,or should i say forced to realize because you don't want to mess with his fans, that they maybe got the horsepower right, but nothing else.

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Amen

mylexicon said:

Your entire rebuttal is based on a faulty assumption that if a team respects the competence of its competitors, the team will drop everything and try to hire them immediately. Really? No team has ever competed against someone for multiple seasons and then hired them away?!



Furthermore, you're not even aware that Ducati hired Rossi to make the bike more rider friendly. In 2007 and 2008, Ducati believed the bike was infallible, once infamously requesting that Melandri see a sports psychologist to fix his brain, after he said the GP8 was unrideable. When Hayden came on board, Ducati stopped blaming the riders for the lack of performance, and by 2011, Ducati was openly admitting that they needed to develop a more rider friendly bike.



Ducati's desire for development was in the public domain. Hiring someone is generally a vote of confidence. 2+2=4. Ducati wanted to develop the bike, they thought Rossi/Burgess were competent. What would have given Ducati that idea? The 2008 season when Rossi/Burgess/Furusawa outdeveloped Ducati, despite using Bridgestones for the first time.

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Fair enough. I am only trying to point out if it was as you say I dont think Rossi would have wasted half of 2011 trying to ride the Ducati as it was while making statements that he would need to adapt himself to the Ducati, that they didnt need to build him a Yamaha etc. Why wouldnt he have simply said Ducati acknowledge they need to build a rider friendly bike and thats what I'm here to do? It looks to me like they hired Rossi because they thought he could replicate Stoner, Rossi went to Ducati because he thought he could replicate Stoner, and neither party thought the situation was anywhere near as bad as it actually was.

birdman said:

Fair enough. I am only trying to point out if it was as you say I dont think Rossi would have wasted half of 2011 trying to ride the Ducati as it was while making statements that he would need to adapt himself to the Ducati, that they didnt need to build him a Yamaha etc. Why wouldnt he have simply said Ducati acknowledge they need to build a rider friendly bike and thats what I'm here to do? It looks to me like they hired Rossi because they thought he could replicate Stoner, Rossi went to Ducati because he thought he could replicate Stoner, and neither party thought the situation was anywhere near as bad as it actually was.

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I will refer you to the actions-speak-louder-than-words-maxim. Rossi was talking a nice game about making himself a better rider, but during Rossi's tenure, Ducati switched to an aluminum twin spar frame and they tilted the engine every which way to alter the handling characteristics. It was always about development. Burgess indicated development by saying the bike would be fixed in 80 seconds. Ducati signaled development when they said Rossi would make the bike more rider friendly. Rossi indicated it was all about development when he said he was anxious to return to Yamaha and help them improve their bike. The radical alterations to Ducati GP bikes is also an indicator that development was the mission.

J4rn0 said:

The wall was installed by Bridgestone and Michelin in 2008, not by Rossi, to protect their secrets;

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Window-dressing.

Seriously, do you think the wall was a good idea? Acceptable?

xx CURVE xx said:

Exactly.. It doesnt make sense, yet thats exactly what Duc did. Instead of fixing the problem they threw duct tape at it while Honda and Yamaha consistently got better.

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"the problem"

And what is "the problem"?

I'm not talking symptoms, I'm talking root causes.

Dr No said:

"the problem"

And what is "the problem"?

I'm not talking symptoms, I'm talking root causes.

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the design, frame, engine layout and position, materials used, and electronics..

xx CURVE xx said:

the design, frame, engine layout and position, materials used, and electronics..

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Insightful. Wow.

Send your CV to Mr Prezioni.