Rossi on the Ducati and the Future

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Is there an argument here that goes something like this.



Any competent crew with a good rider and good crew chief could achieve magnificent results given enough money.



Rossi (and Burgess) have always attracted the most money by so many orders of magnitude they are difficult to beat



(Unless on the Duc which is a train wreck in fast motion)
 
I think some perhaps understandably have strong memories of the vitriol heaped on stoner for not "developing" the ducati; my opinion then and now was that the bike from 2010 on was undevelopable, by him or as it transpires anyone else. I still don't think the 2009 carbon fibre thing was all that bad, for stoner anyway.



Imo, Stoner's unfair treatment clearly doesn't have as its corollary that rossi and jb can't develop though. Rossi in his rookie year in 2000 got the honda 500 back on track whilst alex criville was developing it rapidly in a backwards direction for the official factory honda team. It is also hard to argue that yamaha winning 6 of the last 9 championships is unrelated to valentino, with furasawa obviously also a major contributor and jorge not pulling many wrong reins as well. The 2006 yamaha was the one with the chatter problem. There was mass panic about ducati's perceived massive bike advantage in 2007 which led to talk about a V4 as steifel has evidenced, and early problems with the pneumatic inline yamaha expiring during races, but also as I recall an eventual decision by both furasawa and rossi to continue to develop the yamaha for overall balance even if at the expense of some power.
 
just my smart ... 2 cents: the 3 different m1s for 2004 were developed with barros (not biaggis) feedback. other than that ,and that 2007 the bike was really good (just missing a few horses which was solved quickly with the pneumatics), great post mental.

i don't think the 2006 chatter problem had that much to do with rossi supposedly being pre occupied with f1.

if i remember correctly the 2004 honda had massive chatter problems and god knows what went into developing a machine that would guarantee one of their high quality riders to beat rossi to the championship.i guess chatter can always occur and is a real ..... to make disappear
 
birdman said:
Is that how it went? I thought Ducati made offers to both Lorenzo and Pedro in 2009. Stoner left in 2010, then finally Rossi went to Ducati not because either he or they thought they needed a radical overhaul to develop a race winner. Rossi went to Ducati because he thought it was a ready made race winner that only required a few tweeks here and there.
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What is the point of this post?
 
mylexicon said:
What is the point of this post?
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You propose in 2008 Ducati watched in awe and amazement as Rossi out developed them and thought, gee we need to hire those guys. So they came up with an elaborate plan to make offers to Lorenzo and Pedro, knowing this would be the bait to lure the big fish of JB/Rossi? No. Ducati thought they had the bike all the way up until Valencia 2011. Rossi and JB thought they had a winning bike as well.



This continued idea that Rossi/JB were hired as some sort of savior to redevelop a flawed bike makes no sense. If Rossi was aware the bike was this flawed there is no way in hell he would have gone. They went there to win and figured it would be a piece of cake.
 
well what other choice did both rossi and ducati have in 2010 other then teaming up?

ducati lost casey and both lorenzo and pedrosa (tbh i didn't know they tried to get dani) were smart enough to not take the money but rather the competitive bike.

there was no room for rossi at honda (not that i expect they would ever have been keen on signing him since 2004) because they had 4 top riders for their factory bikes. he fled from yamaha because he knew he'd be on equal terms with jorge.



i'm not trying to talk down that ducati were for sure overly excited to take the opportunity and sign rossi and his crew,at the time i too thought they could turn it around within a year or so and make a good yamacati.



but you have to be realistic, both rossi and ducati had no other real option.
 
cliché guevara;333646 said:
but you have to be realistic, both rossi and ducati had no other real option.
Click to expand...

I think the circumstances this time were nothing like Rossi to Yamaha in 04, where Rossi knew he was in for a real hard slog and prepared himself mentally for the challenge. Unlike MA i rate 04 as a great achievement in Rossi's career. He worked hard and got his due rewards. That Honda V5 was still the best bike out there. Apparently first time Stoner rode one in testing for LCR he pulled in the pits and the crew asked what needed fixing. To their surprise he said nothing, this bike is perfect. Thats what Rossi left and ultimately beat. Gutsy move.



Sure Yamaha had plenty of updates but many riders are said to get lost testing parts and end up developing backwards. In the end Rossi figured out what he needed and won without expecting or demanding it. If he had of gone to Ducati with that same mindset, to slog it out week after week with the aim to make the Ducati better rather than falling for the fixed in a 80 seconds then i would agree with lex. That was never the mindset.
 
There was always this elephant in the corner that Rossi ignored, the elephant (Whose surname is Ducati) had a host of Christian names, like Marco Nicki Mika Loris Sete Troy the elephant.



Rossi, used to winning and perhaps mislead unintentionally by advisors only saw Casey elephant. Big tusks for sure, but a fine pachyderm.



Elephants operate in a herd (or the alternative collective nouns "parade" or "memory".) There as a parade of midfield elephants, that Rossi didn't burn into his memory. The lone elephant Casey needed to be discounted rather than relied upon.



Elephant behaviour is very complex.
 
Sure the Stonerphant had impressive tusks, but the Rossephant figured racing is only 20% in the tusk, 80% in the ... and his ... looked so much better in the mirror. 9 times better to be precise.
 
mylexicon said:
Mental, I read your post on Krop's site about how this situation was a lose-lose for Ducati b/c the fans would give Rossi all of the credit, and the fans would give Ducati all of the blame. Yes, very nice observation, but reality is not reactionary sentiments to unjust bopperisms. It is possible that Ducati could fail to build a bike that turns, despite Burgess/Rossi input, and Boppers could reach the correct conclusion about who is to blame, despite blindly judging the situation. You have merely looked at the heinous abuse of reasonable thought by the Boppers, and then concluded for moralistic reasons that Boppers should be wrong no matter how perversely the facts must be twisted.



Rossi/Burgess are a competent development duo with numerous championships, and Ducati knew as much after being beaten in 2008, which is why Ducati hired them. By all reasonable accounts, the Ducati has never been a rider-friendly machine after tire prototyping was limited and controlled, and Stoner was riding the Desmo well beyond its limits, which makes his accomplishments even more astounding.



The Boppers are right about Ducati for the wrong reasons. You should let it be.
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Ducati hired Rossi because they thought he would be able to win on it. If they hired him to develop it as proclaimed then they were wrong twice. It also is quite ironic that they allegedly hired him to 'develop it' but he and everyone else claim that they didn't listen to him. Rather bizarre that a board of directors of a major and iconic motorbike manufacturer would spend 15 million euro + entourage hiring someone to help develop the bike yet completely fail to listen to him. Or is it that they did listen yet got no result and not wanting to take the blame and blow the myth Rossi and JB have spread untruths that Ducati did not react? I bet if you asked Ducati they would definitely have a different version of the truth.
 
birdman said:
Ha ha thats a classic. Rossi the engineer called for pnuematic valves! Cmon man be reasonable. Rossi saw Stoner had a V4 that he couldnt beat without a gun and demanded the same.



The pneumatic engine blew up at Misano in 2007. Rossi was pissed and wanted nothing more to do with it. Furusawa knew a V4 wasnt the solution, but futher failure would have made him the next Prezi.
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See, have to try & say that I believe Rossi & JB built it in their back garden alone, which is not what I was saying at all.



I am under the impression that what I remember is that once the pneumatics were on the table Rossi was calling for it quicker. Hence the failure at Misano I guess. However to suggest that Furusawa who had retired in 2006 & had been called back (I believe mid 2007?) was under any threat is, again, ridiculous.
 
michaelm said:
I think some perhaps understandably have strong memories of the vitriol heaped on stoner for not "developing" the ducati; my opinion then and now was that the bike from 2010 on was undevelopable, by him or as it transpires anyone else. I still don't think the 2009 carbon fibre thing was all that bad, for stoner anyway.



Imo, Stoner's unfair treatment clearly doesn't have as its corollary that rossi and jb can't develop though. Rossi in his rookie year in 2000 got the honda 500 back on track whilst alex criville was developing it rapidly in a backwards direction for the official factory honda team. It is also hard to argue that yamaha winning 6 of the last 9 championships is unrelated to valentino, with furasawa obviously also a major contributor and jorge not pulling many wrong reins as well. The 2006 yamaha was the one with the chatter problem. There was mass panic about ducati's perceived massive bike advantage in 2007 which led to talk about a V4 as steifel has evidenced, and early problems with the pneumatic inline yamaha expiring during races, but also as I recall an eventual decision by both furasawa and rossi to continue to develop the yamaha for overall balance even if at the expense of some power.
Click to expand...
What he said, except I think it was a piece of .... since 2008.
 
Mental Anarchist said:
Lorenzo won't win another championship. Pedrosa will never win one.
Click to expand...

I have to say I disagree with this. IMO Pedrosa will be champ next year. The honda will be too strong. I think Lorenzo will win a few more, although I wouldn't be dissapointed if you were correct.
 
Mental Anarchist said:
Or is it that they did listen yet got no result and not wanting to take the blame and blow the myth Rossi and JB have spread untruths that Ducati did not react? I bet if you asked Ducati they would definitely have a different version of the truth.
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& This despite how publicly their test program & updates have been played out? Really?
 
Goatboy said:
& This despite how publicly their test program & updates have been played out? Really?
Click to expand...



Oh so you believe that reports are never manipulated and that only what actually happens is reported? Now I get it.



Is it public every time the test team hits the track? How do we know if the test team weren't out testing the development based on feedback from Rossi and the results being terrible so never made it to the race bike?



In my opinion Ducati have brought more updates to the table in 2 years than they have in the nearly 10 they have been in GP. Ask Stoner or any of the other riders if they got all the things Rossi did.



You and your like just can't accept that Rossi has failed to provide the correct feedback so that the engineers could develop the Ducati. It is far easier for you to just blame Ducati.
 
And you and your-kind cant accept that Ducat engineers didnt listen to VR/JB feedback and failed to develop the bike as needed to be competitive.
 
cliché guevara said:
well what other choice did both rossi and ducati have in 2010 other then teaming up?

ducati lost casey and both lorenzo and pedrosa (tbh i didn't know they tried to get dani) were smart enough to not take the money but rather the competitive bike.

there was no room for rossi at honda (not that i expect they would ever have been keen on signing him since 2004) because they had 4 top riders for their factory bikes. he fled from yamaha because he knew he'd be on equal terms with jorge.



i'm not trying to talk down that ducati were for sure overly excited to take the opportunity and sign rossi and his crew,at the time i too thought they could turn it around within a year or so and make a good yamacati.



but you have to be realistic, both rossi and ducati had no other real option.
Click to expand...



Rossi certainly had the option to stay at Yamaha, he took the wrong decision but he could have stayed there and the proof is that he can get back there even now.

Ducati could have done then what they are doing now -- hiring other riders, possibly younger.

In retrospect, both Rossi and Ducatii chose badly, but saying they didn't have other options is untrue.
 
J4rn0 said:
Rossi certainly had the option to stay at Yamaha, he took the wrong decision but he could have stayed there and the proof is that he can get back there even now.

Ducati could have done then what they are doing now -- hiring other riders, possibly younger.

In retrospect, both Rossi and Ducatii chose badly, but saying they didn't have other options is untrue.
Click to expand...

i think you got me wrong. sure he could have stayed - on equal terms with jorge. something that was unacceptable to him.

with his pride blocking his way to stay at yamaha he had no other choice but go. and in 2010 the ducati certainly wasn't seen as bad as it is now, ducati wanted "an alien" and he was the only one available.i think not even spies in his 2010 form was a real alternative to hiring one of the top 4.

bad choices,yes.
 
michaelm said:
I think some perhaps understandably have strong memories of the vitriol heaped on stoner for not "developing" the ducati; my opinion then and now was that the bike from 2010 on was undevelopable, by him or as it transpires anyone else. I still don't think the 2009 carbon fibre thing was all that bad, for stoner anyway.



Imo, Stoner's unfair treatment clearly doesn't have as its corollary that rossi and jb can't develop though. Rossi in his rookie year in 2000 got the honda 500 back on track whilst alex criville was developing it rapidly in a backwards direction for the official factory honda team. It is also hard to argue that yamaha winning 6 of the last 9 championships is unrelated to valentino, with furasawa obviously also a major contributor and jorge not pulling many wrong reins as well. The 2006 yamaha was the one with the chatter problem. There was mass panic about ducati's perceived massive bike advantage in 2007 which led to talk about a V4 as steifel has evidenced, and early problems with the pneumatic inline yamaha expiring during races, but also as I recall an eventual decision by both furasawa and rossi to continue to develop the yamaha for overall balance even if at the expense of some power.
Click to expand...



Rossi got a full factory 99 spec bike in 2000 fully developed by Mr Doohan over a 7 year period,this bike was so good Max blew them all away in his first race,Alex took over devlopment of the Repsol bikes in 2000 after winning the title in 99 after Doohans crash and retirment . Rossi hardly put it back on track,it was a fantastic package allready.
 
xx CURVE xx said:
And you and your-kind cant accept that Ducat engineers didnt listen to VR/JB feedback and failed to develop the bike as needed to be competitive.
Click to expand...



No i dont exept that,why would they pay 20 mill for VR and more for JB and the team just to not listen,that makes no sense at all,there are much deeper problems here.
 

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