Rossi making moves against Jarvis

RCV600RR said:

I think your point is a non-sequitur. I didn't say Hayden shouldn't be credited for his title (he's my favourite rider...).

Rather, you said that Rossi has to take blame for the 2006 M1's poor development. My response was that the 2006 M1 wasn't actually a bad bike when it worked. He had three DNFs which had nothing to do with Rossi's development, without which there's a solid chance he'd have won the title. None of those assertions are contentious.

Anyway, as I've stated many times, I don't think the rider wins or loses anything by himself. It's the rider-tyre-bike-team package that wins or loses. It's a team sport. That year, the Hayden-Michelin-RC211V-Repsol team package was superior to the Rossi-Michelin-M1-Camel team package. We can debate whether the rider outperformed or underperformed other elements of the package (which is basically the purpose of this forum), but that misses the point of the sport; it's not a one-make cup. It's the test of every element of the package - the rider's skills and fortitude, the team's unity and skills, the ability of the factory to respond quickly and well to feedback, etc., and that's why we love it.

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My point is that talk of the likes of Rossi being unlucky or others having good luck or him being disadvantaged against the likes of Stoner, a one year rental while Ducati waited for Melandri to serve out a contract elsewhere, who somehow took a bike no-one else could ride to a world title, or even more so Nicky, who didn't even have strong support from his own team, let alone his team-mate, and is the only guy from a super bike background to win a title in almost 2 decades, lacks all sense of proportion imo. Compared to those guys Rossi always had great equipment; he earned his status no doubt, and like Doohan before him was on the best equipment because he was the best rider rather than the converse as I have said.

He fully deserves and earnt all his titles, with the first one on the 500 Honda, the 2004 title and the 2008 title particularly meritorious imo, but he should have been able to win in 2006 just as Stoner should have been able to do so in 2012 despite various difficulties, and if his focus or Yamaha's wasn't quite what it was in his his title years with Yamaha then that's the way it was. That Toni Elias on a satellite bike who for one race got on SNS tires forestalled him winning the 2006 title isn't the strongest argument I have ever seen you advance. I am a huge Doohan fan, but he won 5 titles, not 7, and I don't claim 1 of Rainey's titles and Schwantz's title by means of what ifs, they stayed healthy and on their bikes in those respective years, the first requirement in those days, and Mick unfortunately didn't manage to do so.

I don't have a problem with you, but I do have a problem with what ifs in regard to titles which riders win fair and square. I follow the NBA basketball a little, and the arguments from Lebron fans on the NBA websites closely parallel the arguments from Rossi partisans in regard to GP bike racing, although Rossi is imo closer to being Michael Jordan than he is to being LeBron James.

J4rn0 said:

Your point is clear as usual, but it cannot be really taken as it is, because you keep ignoring the fact that Rossi did make a switch from Honda to Yamaha within those first 5 years, whereas MM -- during his 6th HRC year -- has signed another 2 years contract with the world's most coveted ride.

Had MM moved to Ducati in 2017, and then won 2017 and 2018 on it, you would be completely right. The offer was there (and I can tell that Marc is still Ducati's main target), but he left that challenge to Lorenzo.

Wins and titles are numbers and I tend to accept them without discussion, and move on. Makes life easier. But since people here love so much to speculate, then fancy what Rossi' statistics would be (and how different and probably more boring MotoGP history would have been) if he had remained on the 'unbeatable' HRC machine for 8 years, as Marc is going to do?

Do you think he would have ever lost the 2006 title? And probably the 800cc formula would never have happened, so there would not have been the Ducati-Bridgestone exploit with Stoner, and Rossi would have probably continued taking 2007, 2008, 2009.... I reckon in 2010 Lorenzo on the Yamaha would have finally seriously challenged Rossi anyway. In 2010... and we will never know what would have happened.

In this vein, it's interesting to note that Stoner might never have had his golden MotoGP chance if Rossi had stayed with Honda. So this Rossi might not have been such a plague for our beloved sport after all! Apart from his fans of course...

PS: Also, let us not forget that Rossi wasn't with HRC in his first 500cc season, unlike MM. Only the bike was factory. The rider HRC was listening to was their #1 rider, Criville, who got everything wrong -- so having that factory bike was not such an advantage! In the second half of the season they began listening to Rossi and Burgess a little more, and results came fast. Had Rossi been in Criville's place, he would probably have won the title in his rookie season.

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Without speculation we have Rossi vs MM on track at the same time do we not. There’s not much to debate there.

It’s the Rossi fans who wish to propose what ifs in terms of how they woulda squared off when VR was 24.

MM can’t replicate Rossi’s early record, in terms of championships won on types of machinery.

He hasn’t matched Rossi’s switch to Yamaha, which was one hell of a gutsy move considering when he signed he had the 03 Yamaha for reference. I remember a quote from then whereby Rossi said he expected it would take at least one season to get something competitive.

So 2:1 to Rossi so far.

But then, consider when Rossi was 21 he didn’t have to compete against, well, Rossi. There was no 9 times champ in the field. Biaggi was a great talent? You have to excuse me here as I lol the revisionist Rossi fan now claiming Biaggi was great, because Erve said so. You left out the vital ‘on his day’ part. His days were relatively few and far between. Gary McCoy actually had more wins than Biaggi on a Yamaha at one stage, and that wasn’t even a factory ride. Personally I woulda loved the chance to see Rossi compete against Doohan and we had the tragic loss of arguably the most talented rider from Japan in Kato leaving a void which wasn’t filled until the arrival of Pedro and Stoner.

So MM has entered the class and immediately faced a nine time champ on a competitive machine, and has also survived a typical episode of the infamous Rossi mind games that broke the likes of Biaggi, Gravelplow and even the mighty Stoner. If anything it appears to have made MM even more determined, a scary thought.

We’re at 2:2 here. I’d say we are splitting hairs, they are 2 generational talents.

Then there was Lawson. Rossi has 9 as he went straight to GP. Lawson won everything there was to win in AMA on both dirt, road and a combination of the two. Rainey admitted he almost gave racing away after chasing him without much success until Lawson got bored and went off to 500cc.

There he began his campaign against KR senior, witnessed Freddie burn out, Mamola, Sarron, Gardner, Schwantz, Rainey all while riding what is widely acclaimed to be the most evil machinery ever invented as rider after rider was chewed up and spit out. He did the ride switch, riding the equivalent of a 2003 rather 04 Yamaha with the 89 NSR Honda.

He finished off by mentoring Doohan, more or less getting credit from Mick for making him what he was when he wanted to quit.

That is one hellofa career. Lawson takes the tie breaker 10:8 in the 5th.

Now we await MM to Ducati. I think he’s waiting for VR to retire first.

J4rn0 said:

Your point is clear as usual, but it cannot be really taken as it is, because you keep ignoring the fact that Rossi did make a switch from Honda to Yamaha within those first 5 years, whereas MM -- during his 6th HRC year -- has signed another 2 years contract with the world's most coveted ride.

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2 completely different situations and era's, which you once again try to use to make Marquez' achievements look inferior to Rossi's. Marquez hasn't had access to SNS tyres, nor was Rossi making his title run agains't the calibre of riders out there now. Apart from KRJR, Rossi was the only WC out there from 2001-2007. Marquez Has had a much higher level of competition.

Do you think he would have ever lost the 2006 title? And probably the 800cc formula would never have happened, so there would not have been the Ducati-Bridgestone exploit with Stoner, and Rossi would have probably continued taking 2007, 2008, 2009.... I reckon in 2010 Lorenzo on the Yamaha would have finally seriously challenged Rossi anyway. In 2010... and we will never know what would have happened.

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Completely hypothetical, but Stoner would have signed for Ducati regardless of the change to 800cc. The 2006 990cc Ducati was much easier to ride than the 800, given that Gibernau had been relatively competitive on it in 06, and Capirossi was a championship contender until the pile up at Barcelona. I think had they stuck with 1000's in 2007, Stoner would have still won the title on a 1000cc GP7.

RCV600RR said:

The engine blew twice (LS and Le Mans) while leading, and Elias took him out in the first race. There's possibly 50-75 points down the drain between those three events. It may have been an imperfect bike, but the bike-rider package was still clearly strong enough to win the championship with some margin in 2006.

Nicky did have to deal with the Pedrosa torpedo and HRC giving him the weird Evo bike with its annoying starting issues, however.

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Completely agree, also 2006 was the first year Rossi suffered from something which every rider suffers with at some point, after 5 straight seasons of shitting gold bars he finally had luck turn against him.

michaelm said:

That Toni Elias on a satellite bike who for one race got on SNS tires forestalled him winning the 2006 title isn't the strongest argument I have ever seen you advance.

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No, I'm referring to the first round at Jerez when Elias knocked Rossi off at the first corner (not Estoril).

I have nothing to add to the rest of your post, which is pretty uncontentious (but doesn't really relate to my point, which is that the 2006 M1 was not a bad bike).

AntG said:

Completely agree, also 2006 was the first year Rossi suffered from something which every rider suffers with at some point, after 5 straight seasons of shitting gold bars he finally had luck turn against him.

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Me too.

Also, due to his dominant 2nd year on the Yamaha, Rossi thought he'd walk the 06 championship so spent the winter testing Ferrari F1 cars while Nicky and Honda were putting in record number of test laps all winter long. It was noted that at almost every test Nicky was the first rider out and the last rider back in at the end of the day.

The fact that the Yamaha chattered itself off the circuit would have been found out much earlier had Rossi been concentrating on the job at hand.

#22 said:

Me too.

Also, due to his dominant 2nd year on the Yamaha, Rossi thought he'd walk the 06 championship so spent the winter testing Ferrari F1 cars while Nicky and Honda were putting in record number of test laps all winter long. It was noted that at almost every test Nicky was the first rider out and the last rider back in at the end of the day.

The fact that the Yamaha chattered itself off the circuit would have been found out much earlier had Rossi been concentrating on the job at hand.

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I still think it would have been fascinating had he made the switch to F1.

He would have been in two consecutive competitive cars, though that 2007 McLaren was an absolute beast that was done in by the infighting between Alonso and Hamilton.

RCV600RR said:

No, I'm referring to the first round at Jerez when Elias knocked Rossi off at the first corner (not Estoril).

I have nothing to add to the rest of your post, which is pretty uncontentious (but doesn't really relate to my point, which is that the 2006 M1 was not a bad bike).

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Yes, I knew you were referring to that, but didn’t want to edit my post for once . Getting taken out by Toni Elias on a satellite bike is probsbly also an avoidable hazard For the likes of Rossi. I recall the incident of course, it was a major controversy on here when I followed the forum but didn’t post, there was even a poster who called himself Toni Elias. I don’t recall Elias being penalised, and from my current perspective wonder if it wasn’t an early example of Rossi being raced as he had raced others. He still also lost the title by less than the number of points he would have gained by beating Toni Elias at Estoril. As has been mplied by me and said by another I don’t think his focus was there after walking the 2003 title, and that is on him.

My recent posts on this thread are not strictly relevant to your post in some aspects I admit, you having touched on a bête noir of mine, people bemoaning Rossi’s luck in 2006 when most things had gone his way hitherto, substantially of his own making though his good luck may have been. Rossi had also pretty much dismissed Nicky on an HRC bike as a threat to him when he made his Yamaha switch as well imo.

Nicky’s 2006 title and KRJR’s 2000 title are two of the most against the odds titles in the history of the sport imo, and I prefer to concentrate on the credit they richly deserve for those titles rather than what ifs for other riders. I probably place those titles ahead of Stober’s 2007 title, given while I strongly doubt Rossi could have won the 2007 title on that 800 Ducati there was also nothing he could do to beat it given Stoner could ride the thing, and it did have an insuperable advantage over the Yamaha if you could ride it.

povol said:

That is some wild ... speculation there. Had Rossi stayed at Honda ,Kato would still be alive and the 800’s would never have happened. Man, we could probably speculate that down to Stoner never being born and Marc being a soccer player

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That's great. You guys start the speculations game, and then when someone plays along (but speculates differently) you immediately say 'oh, it's all wild ... speculation'. Hilarious...

#22 said:

2 completely different situations and era's, which you once again try to use to make Marquez' achievements look inferior to Rossi's. Marquez hasn't had access to SNS tyres, nor was Rossi making his title run agains't the calibre of riders out there now. Apart from KRJR, Rossi was the only WC out there from 2001-2007. Marquez Has had a much higher level of competition.


Completely hypothetical, but Stoner would have signed for Ducati regardless of the change to 800cc. The 2006 990cc Ducati was much easier to ride than the 800, given that Gibernau had been relatively competitive on it in 06, and Capirossi was a championship contender until the pile up at Barcelona. I think had they stuck with 1000's in 2007, Stoner would have still won the title on a 1000cc GP7.

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There is a thing called logic, you know. The assessment that Rossi could not have beaten the current crop of riders when he was 23 is rather weak, since he managed to beat all of them for two consecutive seasons when he was over 30.

Marc Marquez started his MotoGP career in the HRC factory team as a rookie, (a rule was bent to make it possible, just imagine what you biased guys would be saying if that has been done for Rossi! ).

Rossi-Honda was by far the strongest MotoGP package in 2001, 2002 and 2003, and logic tells you that if had continued with Honda that dominance would have been consolidated, just as Marquez has been consolidating his dominance with Honda since 2013.

But these simple points are too obvious to be accepted, isn't it. It's easier to speculate without any logic, for sure.

PS: Speaking of competition, Marc never had to face the toughest nut of them all: Casey Stoner.

AntG said:

Lin needs to be careful or he might wake up with a steering head in his bed.

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Absolutely love this. And unfortunately it is true. Just look at the responses from the Rossi fans, here. "No way, no COW, they cry, while everyone suffers in the world that beats Rossi's sorry ....

evo9 said:

Too bad none of them from the 46 group will ever be able to achieve Marc level. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's happening as of this moment in that factory yamaha team. Don't see any changes as time progresses, especially if this bit of news is true. Corruptions is indeed a bad thing.........

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I will bet over a thousand U.S. dollars, that if Rossi is in charge of the Yamaha team that Yamaha will never win another Championship.

Anyone game for my bet?

J4rn0 said:

There is a thing called logic, you know. The assessment that Rossi could not have beaten the current crop of riders when he was 23 is rather weak, since he managed to beat all of them for two consecutive seasons when he was over 30.

Marc Marquez started his MotoGP career in the HRC factory team as a rookie, (a rule was bent to make it possible, just imagine what you biased guys would be saying if that has been done for Rossi! ).

Rossi-Honda was by far the strongest MotoGP package in 2001, 2002 and 2003, and logic tells you that if had continued with Honda that dominance would have been consolidated, just as Marquez has been consolidating his dominance with Honda since 2013.

But these simple points are too obvious to be accepted, isn't it. It's easier to speculate without any logic, for sure.

PS: Speaking of competition, Marc never had to face the toughest nut of them all: Casey Stoner.

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Yes, but Rossi also stopped winning 10+ races per season while still in his 20s when Stoner came along. Lorenzo beat Stoner when Stoner was riding for HRC. MM as well as being beaten by Rossi in 2015 won 14 races against him in 2014. Does only one of those years represent their true relativity even given Rossi in his 30s, or is it vaguely possible differing circumstances and equipment had some effect on MM’s rate of winning against Rossi and others in the 2 respective years?.

Good golly, we are going back to justify Rossi championships? I didn't think .... of Rossi until he left Honda and won on the Yamaha. The Honda was so much better in engine performance to the rest of the field, I could have gotten points on the V5.

His Yamaha ships were great, except for being a ....-head and bumping other riders off the track. A thing that he complains about NOW, but had no problem doing himself back then. I am so tired of this clown, I COULD SCREAM. He makes me want to say kuant, kuant, over and over again, just so I can fit it with the other girls, here.

Stoner should shut-up about Marquez, because he is jealous. He should put together a team with the other fast Australians and make Rossi eat Phillip Island Sea Gull guano. Talk is cheap.
:humpfff

Iamapony said:

Good golly, we are going back to justify Rossi championships? I didn't think .... of Rossi until he left Honda and won on the Yamaha. The Honda was so much better in engine performance to the rest of the field, I could have gotten points on the V5.

His Yamaha ships were great, except for being a ....-head and bumping other riders off the track. A thing that he complains about NOW, but had no problem doing himself back then. I am so tired of this clown, I COULD SCREAM. He makes me want to say kuant, kuant, over and over again, just so I can fit it with the other girls, here.

Stoner should shut-up about Marquez, because he is jealous. He should put together a team with the other fast Australians and make Rossi eat Phillip Island Sea Gull guano. Talk is cheap.
:humpfff

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Stoner hadn’t said all that much about MM, but he does have no case to say anything as you say. He retired in his prime by his own choice, a choice I respected then and still do, but anything he says in regard to MM and himself is always going to be in the could’ve would’ve should’ve category.

povol said:

Dude, there is no speculation , Marquez has been going head to head against Rossi for close to six years and the results speak for themselves. Rossi himself said a couple of years ago he was a better rider now than the early 2000’s and he is right. All you have to do is look at pics of his style compared to today to see how he has evolved. His problem is Marquez is just better.I don’t understand why this is so difficult for Rossi fans to accept, I think even Rossi has accepted it .

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He might have improved in many respects, but his synapses are 39 years old, not 25.

As I have said, I will rate their early careers equal if both are at 5 world titles from 6 after 6 years in the premier class, both having won each of their titles against all comers under the rules of the day.

I do think J4rn0 is being disingenuous in claiming that number of race wins is independent of competition or equipment rules, particularly control tire, spec ECU etc rules specifically aimed at leveling the field. As you have said frequently, Rossi’s winning percentage for both races and titles dropped off dramatically while he was still in his 20s with the advent of other historically elite riders, the end of SNS tires and the control tire rule coming into effect.

There's also been a tyre manufacturer change since Marquez came into the premier class.

povol said:

Dude, there is no speculation , Marquez has been going head to head against Rossi for close to six years and the results speak for themselves. Rossi himself said a couple of years ago he was a better rider now than the early 2000’s and he is right. All you have to do is look at pics of his style compared to today to see how he has evolved. His problem is Marquez is just better.I don’t understand why this is so difficult for Rossi fans to accept, I think even Rossi has accepted it .

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If you think Rossi looks at Marquez as his superior, you are seriously wrong. Rossi knows very well that being a better (more mature and complete) rider doesn't mean being always faster. Speed has a un-conscious element of recklessness going with it, that naturally works with younger riders: it is a scientific fact that after 30 the self-preservation instinct and 'experience' take over from sheer bravery. Of course Rossi is pleased with the fact he has been able to adapt to 3 or 4 different generations of bikes and riders, and is still competitive, but that is a different kind of 'better'. There is no substitute for youth, he also said that many times.
But I dont think you want to debate things honestly -- so I'm basically wasting my time answering you.

It wasn't so long ago Rossi called Marc 'me with upgrades' just saying.