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Rossi making moves against Jarvis

RCV600RR said:
I got the sense that he was legitimately furious. Maybe he was being strategic, but I thought his reaction was sincere.

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I don't doubt for a second that he was genuinely angry, mate.
But as you said I do feel that there was a strategic (or possibly even exploitative) element to his comments afterwards. Ultimately there is only one person who knows the truth and he has 2 bulldogs and a cat on the back of his seat.
Anyway, for as inflammatory as Argentina was at the time it is good to see Vale up front regularly.
 
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RCV600RR said:
In 2015, no-one on the grid was close to the pace of Rossi, Lorenzo, MM and Pedrosa over that season. The Yamaha was really strong that year.

The Motegi 16 argument could apply to Rossi too. Had he been solely preoccupied with beating JL, he would've cruised home while comfortably leading JL.
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I think they had bum tires in 2016 thanks to Mishitlin. Double front end washouts which is what went on the whole season because the front tire was garbage. That being said, I don't think anyone was beating MM in 2016.
 
michaelm said:
I obviously realised the “what if” the other way, but that is part of my point, the possibilities rapidly become myriad with what ifs. In 2015 it was generally conceded the 4 bikes the riders you mention were riding had a pronounced advantage, despite which Iannone beat both Rossi and Pedrosa at PI which was a significant contributor to Valentino losing the title, and if say Dovi was on the HRC bike who knows what may have happened?. If Dani hadn’t been injured he may have taken points away from Rossi early season as well as late season.

I think it is best just to acknowledge whoever won by beating everyone who turned up to race them. I might make an exception for one non premier class title, when iirc Capirossi took out his title rival in the last race of a season.
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Hard to see anyone doing better than MM on the Repsol in 2015. Maybe in the odd race, but not over the season.

Re Dovi on the Repsol Honda, the reality is that he got smoked by Dani when they were both on the Honda. Hard to see him beating Dani in 2015 on a Repsol Honda. Even in 2011 when Dani missed four races due to the Simoncelli torpedo, Dovi beat him by 9 points.
 
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RCV600RR said:
Hard to see anyone doing better than MM on the Repsol in 2015. Maybe in the odd race, but not over the season.

Re Dovi on the Repsol Honda, the reality is that he got smoked by Dani when they were both on the Honda. Hard to see him beating Dani in 2015 on a Repsol Honda. Even in 2011 when Dani missed four races due to the Simoncelli torpedo, Dovi beat him by 9 points.
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MM dnfed in 6 races, the reason he finished 3rd in the first place; I believe one "what if" in relation to 2015 was that if he had settled for the position he was in when he crashed out pushing too hard he would have won the title.

Dani was affected by injury for the first half of the 2015 season and missed 3 races to have surgery on his clavicle.

I believe my "what if" holds, particularly given Jorge won more races than Valentino; a rider not as fast as MM but more reliable than he was that year such as Dovi may well have taken more points away from Valentino than Jorge.

(EDIT If you recall Stoner was willing to wild card for Dani; no MM and maybe HRC let him do so).
 
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michaelm said:
MM dnfed in 6 races, the reason he finished 3rd in the first place; I believe one "what if" in relation to 2015 was that if he had settled for the position he was in when he crashed out pushing too hard he would have won the title.

Dani was affected by injury for the first half of the 2015 season and eventually missed races to have surgery on his clavicle.

I believe my "what if" holds, particularly given Jorge won more races than Valentino; a rider not as fast as MM but more reliable than he was that year such as Dovi may well have taken more points away from Valentino than Jorge.
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I did a calculation based on if MM held position instead of crashing out and he would have easily won the title if he had done as you mention with settling for position.
 
michaelm said:
MM dnfed in 6 races, the reason he finished 3rd in the first place; I believe one "what if" in relation to 2015 was that if he had settled for the position he was in when he crashed out pushing too hard he would have won the title.

Dani was affected by injury for the first half of the 2015 season and missed 3 races to have surgery on his clavicle.

I believe my "what if" holds, particularly given Jorge won more races than Valentino; a rider not as fast as MM but more reliable than he was that year such as Dovi may well have taken more points away from Valentino than Jorge.

(EDIT If you recall Stoner was willing to wild card for Dani; no MM and maybe HRC let him do so).
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That's the fundamental skill of racing - knowing when you're pushing too hard, and knowing when to push harder. MM was still mastering that in 2015.

Agree with you about Dani. He would've taken more points.

I can't see Dovi ever taking more points than MM on a Repsol Honda.
 
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RCV600RR said:
That's the fundamental skill of racing - knowing when you're pushing too hard, and knowing when to push harder. MM was still mastering that in 2015.

Agree with you about Dani. He would've taken more points.

I can't see Dovi ever taking more points than MM on a Repsol Honda.
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I didn't see Rossi scoring more points on a Yamaha factory bike than MM on an HRC bike either, before or since 2015, but he did in that year. And as I said, if there is a lesser rider than MM on their bike HRC may well have let Stoner wildcard for Dani.
 
michaelm said:
I didn't see Rossi scoring more points on a Yamaha factory bike than MM on an HRC bike either, before or since 2015, but he did in that year. And as I said, if there is a lesser rider than MM on their bike HRC may well have let Stoner wildcard for Dani.
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I could see it. All it takes is for Honda to build a bike that is a little off the mark and for Yamaha to make another step (which is what happened).
 
RCV600RR said:
I could see it. All it takes is for Honda to build a bike that is a little off the mark and for Yamaha to make another step (which is what happened).
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It also required MM to not accept that his bike had limitations and to repeatedly throw it down the road trying to win every race and/or dominate every race as he had done in 2014. I don't think he will do that again for a whole season, ironically the PI 2015 race demonstrated there was a different approach which could work for him.

This is a fairly pointless argument, and to go reductio ad absurdum Max and Sete may have won titles sans the young Valentino. I certainly agree that Rossi finishing second for a number of the years concerned when in his mid to late 30s is creditable, and he might have won some of those years without MM being in the field. I am not awarding him the 2015 title however, just as I wouldn't the 2006 and 2007 titles which is where all this started.
 
michaelm said:
It also required MM to not accept that his bike had limitations and to repeatedly throw it down the road trying to win every race and/or dominate every race as he had done in 2014. I don't think he will do that again for a whole season, ironically the PI 2015 race demonstrated there was a different approach which could work for him.

This is a fairly pointless argument, and to go reductio ad absurdum Max and Sete may have won titles sans the young Valentino. I certainly agree that Rossi finishing second for a number of the years concerned when in his mid to late 30s is creditable, and he might have won some of those years without MM being in the field. I am not awarding him the 2015 title however, just as I wouldn't the 2006 and 2007 titles which is where all this started.
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Hardly a contentious argument; Max and Sete likely would've won titles sans the young VR....if you had to bet your house for the 2001 title race without VR, would you not bet on Biaggi?
 
People don’t seem to remember just how dominant Rossi was at the stage of his career that Marquez is now in.

https://www.cycleworld.com/is-marc-marquez-better-than-valentino-rossi-after-100-motogp-races

When Rossi reached 100 GPs, he had one more title than his Spanish rival and 14 more victories. So much time has passed since then that even those of us lucky enough to see the races in person have nearly forgotten what Rossi’s first 100 premier-class races were like. When Rossi reached that milestone, he had earned an incredible 78.2 percent of the championship points that were available to him at the time.
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synn said:
People don’t seem to remember just how dominant Rossi was at the stage of his career that Marquez is now in.

https://www.cycleworld.com/is-marc-marquez-better-than-valentino-rossi-after-100-motogp-races
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I think you might find them both on 5 titles in their first 6 years in the class by the end of this season, which would be fairly reflective of their comparative quality imo. MM gets points for winning the title as a rookie, Valentino for winning 5 in a row which MM had the chance to do but didn't manage.
 
synn said:
People don’t seem to remember just how dominant Rossi was at the stage of his career that Marquez is now in.

https://www.cycleworld.com/is-marc-marquez-better-than-valentino-rossi-after-100-motogp-races
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I also remember who his main competition was . imagine what Marquez figures would look like his first 6 years if his main rival was Dani or Dovi. Not to mention Marc has done his business with spec tires and against machinery that is more equal than at any time in the sports history. His first 100 are more impressive than Rossi's
 
McZee said:
No doubt about it, Vale was spectacular back then, but a lot of those 1st 100 races were on the RCV during the advent of the 4 stroke era and that thing was super-dominant.
That isn't to detract from Vale, but it does help to put the figures into perspective.
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2 years on a Honda 500, 2 years on a Honda 990 (the first almost on his own admittedly), 2.5 years on a Yamaha 990, by my calculations; there are more races in recent years obviously.

I am happy to call their first 6 years a wash if MM wins this year, you can only beat who turns up to race you, otherwise creative accounting can be used to favour either rider. I don’t see MM stopping racking up more titles going forward any time soon however, barring injury of course.
 
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povol said:
I also remember who his main competition was . imagine what Marquez figures would look like his first 6 years if his main rival was Dani or Dovi. Not to mention Marc has done his business with spec tires and against machinery that is more equal than at any time in the sports history. His first 100 are more impressive than Rossi's
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And that right there is the cold had facts! Marc's achievements are much better than his predecessors.
 
In any competition, no matter how strong you are, you cannot do much better than winning. Right?

Right. Rossi has a better record than Marquez for the first 99 premier class races, -- so what's wrong with it? It's just data. Stats. Make what you want of it, -- can't change it.

Speaking of speculations over such things, can you imagine what Rossi's stats would be if he had stayed with Honda? And that wouldn't have affected just Rossi.

Probably, the whole history of MotoGP would have been different. No 800cc Pedrobot class. HRC 990cc 5 cylinders would have evolved probably to this day. No Bridgestones either... VR46 would have easily more than 10 titles by now, and more wins than Agostini.

Rossi actually helped the sport with his switch to Yamaha... Pity Marquez is not doing anything like that. Would make the sport more interesting. ;)
 
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J4rn0 said:
In any competition, no matter how strong you are, you cannot do much better than winning. Right?

Right. Rossi has a better record than Marquez for the first 99 premier class races, -- so what's wrong with it? It's just data. Stats. Make what you want of it, -- can't change it.

Speaking of speculations over such things, can you imagine what Rossi's stats would be if he had stayed with Honda? And that wouldn't have affected just Rossi.

Probably, the whole history of MotoGP would have been different. No 800cc Pedrobot class. HRC 990cc 5 cylinders would have evolved probably to this day. No Bridgestones either... VR46 would have easily more than 10 titles by now, and more wins than Agostini.

Rossi actually helped the sport with his switch to Yamaha... Pity Marquez is not doing anything like that. Would make the sport more interesting. ;)
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Yes, and Dani Pedrosa is Eddie Lawson’s equal and better than Rainey, KRSR, Sheene and Schwantz because he has won 31 races.
 
michaelm said:
Yes, and Dani Pedrosa is Eddie Lawson’s equal and better than Rainey, KRSR, Sheene and Schwantz because he has won 31 races.
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Thank you for illustrating my point, albeit unaware probably.
Do you know for sure that Pedrosa is a lesser rider than Rainey, Schwantz etc.?
And how can anybody know that? One could argue that he would have easily beaten them, if they were still racing in 2006... But would that prove anything?
As I said, all these speculations are futile. :)
 
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J4rn0 said:
Thank you for illustrating my point, albeit unaware probably.
Do you know for sure that Pedrosa is a lesser rider than Rainey, Schwantz etc.?
And how can anybody know that? One could argue that he would have easily beaten them, if they were still racing in 2006... But would that prove anything?
As I said, all these speculations are futile. :)
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Can you find anyone in the GP paddock who would say that Biaggi and Gibernau were the equals of Rossi and Lorenzo , riders who according to most rank number 1 all time and the other easily top 10 maybe top 5-6. That’s who Marquez has competed with every year since coming up. With the regulations of spec electronics, spec tires making the bikes closer in performance than anytime in the history of the sport,against superior opposition, would you not agree that winning races is a much more difficult proposition than 15-20 years ago. Even so, I suspect those numbers will flip here in the next few years.
 

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