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Rossi making moves against Jarvis

J4rn0 said:
If you think Rossi looks at Marquez as his superior, you are seriously wrong. Rossi knows very well that being a better (more mature and complete) rider doesn't mean being always faster. Speed has a un-conscious element of recklessness going with it, that naturally works with younger riders: it is a scientific fact that after 30 the self-preservation instinct and 'experience' take over from sheer bravery. Of course Rossi is pleased with the fact he has been able to adapt to 3 or 4 different generations of bikes and riders, and is still competitive, but that is a different kind of 'better'. There is no substitute for youth, he also said that many times.
But I dont think you want to debate things honestly -- so I'm basically wasting my time answering you. :rolleyes:
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You and Valentino can think what you like and be as honest as you like, but it remains extremely likely that MM will eclipse his record.
 
michaelm said:
You and Valentino can think what you like and be as honest as you like, but it remains extremely likely that MM will eclipse his record.
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Did Rossi beating Doohan’s records make you think any less of the latter?
Same difference.
 
synn said:
Did Rossi beating Doohan’s records make you think any less of the latter?
Same difference.
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I revere Mick still, and regret that injuries interfered with his career, but admit as Mick himself did that Valentino surpassed him.
 
J4rn0 said:
If you think Rossi looks at Marquez as his superior, you are seriously wrong. Rossi knows very well that being a better (more mature and complete) rider doesn't mean being always faster. Speed has a un-conscious element of recklessness going with it, that naturally works with younger riders: it is a scientific fact that after 30 the self-preservation instinct and 'experience' take over from sheer bravery. Of course Rossi is pleased with the fact he has been able to adapt to 3 or 4 different generations of bikes and riders, and is still competitive, but that is a different kind of 'better'. There is no substitute for youth, he also said that many times.
But I dont think you want to debate things honestly -- so I'm basically wasting my time answering you. :rolleyes:
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Logically - he has to think it. Marquez has consistently beaten him since arriving in the premiere class. Perhaps Rossi (or you) might speculate that they'd be equals at the same age, but if Rossi isn't beating Marquez, he's not the better rider and whether Rossi (or Rossi fans) choses to acknowledge this is really immaterial. To state categorically that Rossi doesn't believe it - is just sophistry. He knows mate.
 
Rossi, Lorenzo and even Dovi are not going to get on their bikes believing Marquez is their better. No top tier rider does. If they do, they won’t be racing anymore.

Of course, Kurryfart, who finishes 31st in a 28 strong grid would know better.
 
J4rn0 said:
There is a thing called logic, you know. The assessment that Rossi could not have beaten the current crop of riders when he was 23 is rather weak, since he managed to beat all of them for two consecutive seasons when he was over 30.

Marc Marquez started his MotoGP career in the HRC factory team as a rookie, (a rule was bent to make it possible, just imagine what you biased guys would be saying if that has been done for Rossi! :)).

Rossi-Honda was by far the strongest MotoGP package in 2001, 2002 and 2003, and logic tells you that if had continued with Honda that dominance would have been consolidated, just as Marquez has been consolidating his dominance with Honda since 2013.

But these simple points are too obvious to be accepted, isn't it. It's easier to speculate without any logic, for sure. :rolleyes:

PS: Speaking of competition, Marc never had to face the toughest nut of them all: Casey Stoner.
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Just imagine MM and CS on the Repsol Honda as teammates in 2013.
 
synn said:
Rossi, Lorenzo and even Dovi are not going to get on their bikes believing Marquez is their better. No top tier rider does. If they do, they won’t be racing anymore.

Of course, Kurryfart, who finishes 31st in a 28 strong grid would know better.
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We’re still waiting for you to post a photo of you in a race, or maybe you in your trophy room. Oh wait, you can’t because you’re spending all your money on steroids and hair gel.
 
But of course you're bald. A typical side effect of steroids. The gel is for your back, arm and wrist hair, the latter being handy as a gauge to let you know when your knuckles are dragging on the pavement.
 
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RCV600RR said:
Just imagine MM and CS on the Repsol Honda as teammates in 2013.
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Would have been great viewing, though I can't imagine them staying team"mates" for long.
Big fan of both riders but their different approaches would surely have led to clashes on and off track.
 
Deefer Dogg said:
Would have been great viewing, though I can't imagine them staying team"mates" for long.
Big fan of both riders but their different approaches would surely have led to clashes on and off track.
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Their approaches hardly even intersect. Stoner raced against the track and the maximum potential of the bike, MM like Rossi in his heyday lives to race the other riders.


I could see only one winner long term, but Stoner with the focus he had in his 2 title years vs MM might have been interesting.
 
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J4rn0 said:
If you think Rossi looks at Marquez as his superior, you are seriously wrong. Rossi knows very well that being a better (more mature and complete) rider doesn't mean being always faster. Speed has a un-conscious element of recklessness going with it, that naturally works with younger riders: it is a scientific fact that after 30 the self-preservation instinct and 'experience' take over from sheer bravery. Of course Rossi is pleased with the fact he has been able to adapt to 3 or 4 different generations of bikes and riders, and is still competitive, but that is a different kind of 'better'. There is no substitute for youth, he also said that many times.
But I dont think you want to debate things honestly -- so I'm basically wasting my time answering you. :rolleyes:
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I don’t think the VR Merlot has improved much with age. If anything it appears to have developed a slightly bitter aftertaste. The benefit of experience hasn’t helped Rossi in the critical moments of the last few seasons. He’s been good enough to be in contention, though going through all the critical moments of when to change to slicks in dicey conditions, to when it was time to simply pull the pin and win the race when it counted, he hasn’t looked for lack of a better term like the young Rossi of old.

I think the 24 year old VR woulda held his own in any era of the sport against any rider. That’s not to say he coulda won 10 races in a row, but there is no doubt in my mind he woulda won many races. Ditto MM. Rossi imo would of held his nerve in his younger days rather than the somewhat desperate concoction of conspiracy theories. Also I have to say Rossi wasn’t really pushed that hard by any one particular competitor in the early days, had no real need to improve until 2007 and to my mind improve he did through 2008 - 2009. These were surely the vintage Rossi wine years, every bit as good as anything Marquez has delivered.

Stoner reminds me more of Freddie than Eddie or Rossi. For a brief period he was regarded by his peers as the fastest most talented rider in the field. As with all things that burn bright they tend to burn out. Stoner vs MM would of been great to see but in reality I don’t think it would change much. Stoner was destined to be a 2 championship rider, MM many more than that, though for those 2 years Stoner was “on it” I doubt there was anyone who coulda beaten him. Upon reflection of the numerous Freddie comebacks I’m glad Stoner has resisted the urge and remained content in retirement. It’s obvious Marquez enjoys being out there in the spotlight much more than Casey ever did.
 
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birdman said:
I don’t think the VR Merlot has improved much with age. If anything it appears to have developed a slightly bitter aftertaste. The benefit of experience hasn’t helped Rossi in the critical moments of the last few seasons. He’s been good enough to be in contention, though going through all the critical moments of when to change to slicks in dicey conditions, to when it was time to simply pull the pin and win the race when it counted, he hasn’t looked for lack of a better term like the young Rossi of old.

I think the 24 year old VR woulda held his own in any era of the sport against any rider. That’s not to say he coulda won 10 races in a row, but there is no doubt in my mind he woulda won many races. Ditto MM. Rossi imo would of held his nerve in his younger days rather than the somewhat desperate concoction of conspiracy theories. Also I have to say Rossi wasn’t really pushed that hard by any one particular competitor in the early days, had no real need to improve until 2007 and to my mind improve he did through 2008 - 2009. These were surely the vintage Rossi wine years, every bit as good as anything Marquez has delivered.

Stoner reminds me more of Freddie than Eddie or Rossi. For a brief period he was regarded by his peers as the fastest most talented rider in the field. As with all things that burn bright they tend to burn out. Stoner vs MM would of been great to see but in reality I don’t think it would change much. Stoner was destined to be a 2 championship rider, MM many more than that, though for those 2 years Stoner was “on it” I doubt there was anyone who coulda beaten him. Upon reflection of the numerous Freddie comebacks I’m glad Stoner has resisted the urge and remained content in retirement. It’s obvious Marquez enjoys being out there in the spotlight much more than Casey ever did.
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It's true that they were both relatively introverted, tho Spencer was a good team player/company man and genuinely seemed to enjoy doing all the Honda promo films, something Stoner hated passionately. It helped that Spencer was universally admired - a luxury Stoner didn't have.

While there's no question that Spencer burned out, his deep depression and fall into half-assed business schemes and financial insolvency were I think a direct result. I don't however believe Stoner "burned out". He was resolute in his convictions about what was and what wasn't acceptable at the highest level of Grand Prix championship racing. He put up with a lot as an up-and-coming racer and made a lot of sacrifices and in the end, was disillusioned with the way things were done at the top. Not interested in the glamor, the circus, and back room politics centered around the bottom line, he turned his back on a lifestyle that fell short of his expectations. I think if he were truly burned out, he'd have turned his back on it all completely, and not come back to do testing and R&D work.

Speculation I know, but I don't expect Stoner believes in destiny. I think he would say racers reach their objectives by hard work. He clearly could have gone on to win more championships, except that he felt the return was not the equal of the required sacrifice.
 
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Stoner was never going to ride into his thirties because of injuries, and I doubt MM will, he will need to surpass Rossi in his twenties imo.

Whatever my opinion of some aspects of Rossi as a gp bike rider, his freedom from injuries which does largely come down to his skill and riding style and physical resilience/toughness extending into his late thirties is quite remarkable. I leave out mental toughness because while Rossi has that to a remarkable degree, even so I believe MM has him covered and is unlikely to lose that.
 
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The rider who Stoner reminds me of the most is Graeme Crosby, another bloke who walked away at the peak of his game due to racing politics when there was so much more for him to achieve.
 
Is there any rider who found it difficult to train so that he can “Test” 3 times a year?
Because that’s what Stoner is doing now. Maybe the next guy who does it can be referred to as pulling a Stoner.
 
synn said:
Is there any rider who found it difficult to train so that he can “Test” 3 times a year?
Because that’s what Stoner is doing now. Maybe the next guy who does it can be referred to as pulling a Stoner.
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I think the injury troubling him currently and which has required surgery was actually from the stuck throttle when he crashed on the Honda superbike in the Suzuka race post his retirement from gp racing, so i am not sure quite what your point is. The conclusion I might be inclined to draw is that Honda are better at GP bike racing than super bike racing, since they were last serious about it anyway when Colin Edwards won.

As I said It is truly remarkable and a testament to his skill that Rossi has remained sufficiently injury free to still be able to ride at such an elite level, and I suspect MM’s riding style will not work with older synapses and is unlikely to leave him in the sort of physical health Rossi still has late in his 30s. I have no idea how long MM might actually want to go though.
 
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