Rossi making moves against Jarvis

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Keshav said:
Logically - he has to think it. Marquez has consistently beaten him since arriving in the premiere class. Perhaps Rossi (or you) might speculate that they'd be equals at the same age, but if Rossi isn't beating Marquez, he's not the better rider and whether Rossi (or Rossi fans) choses to acknowledge this is really immaterial. To state categorically that Rossi doesn't believe it - is just sophistry. He knows mate.
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When Marc arrived in MotoGP, he was 20 and Rossi was 34. This is not speculation. Now, Marc is 25 and Rossi is 39. Make what you want of it. :)
 
J4rn0 said:
When Marc arrived in MotoGP, he was 20 and Rossi was 34. This is not speculation. Now, Marc is 25 and Rossi is 39. Make what you want of it. :)
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What age they were when MM arrived and what age Rossi is, have no bearing whatsoever on the reality that Rossi has been very consistently beaten since MM arrived and MM goes from strength to strength while Rossi, while impressive for his age, is continually the bridesmaid and hasn't won a championship in years. These are not statistics which can be rigged to mean whatever sophist thing suits your narrative. These are the plain facts and no matter how much you like him, you can't spin the facts which are right in plain sight. Marquez wins races and championships while Rossi at best is runner up. Being the winner is by definition what makes MM the better rider in the here and now and Rossi must know that. The man is not deluded. When Stoner was dominating Rossi knew it and spoke to it, saying "Stoner, he ride like a God". He acknowledged a better rider then, what makes you think he would be in denial now?
 
Yeah man, 23 other riders should just pack up and go home because Marquez is the best.
 
synn said:
Yeah man, 23 other riders should just pack up and go home because Marquez is the best.
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Non sequitur fallacy. The other 23 riders should work harder to be the equal of Marquez. Clearly what with the results Rossi
is achieving, he's doing the best he can under the circumstances. Too bad his fans are too unrealistic to be satisfied with that.
 
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J4rn0 said:
When Marc arrived in MotoGP, he was 20 and Rossi was 34. This is not speculation. Now, Marc is 25 and Rossi is 39. Make what you want of it. :)
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It cuts both ways though. Rossi has chosen to race at his current age, and there is no 25 year old Rossi available for MM to race. I think what ifs and extrapolations are invalid every which way.

I do start to wonder whether either of them are very good at leading development however, something Rossi shouldn’t have lost, the alternative being that the gp riders don’t have much to do with it anyway.
 
michaelm said:
It cuts both ways though. Rossi has chosen to race at his current age, and there is no 25 year old Rossi available for MM to race. I think what ifs and extrapolations are invalid every which way.

I do start to wonder whether either of them are very good at leading development however, something Rossi shouldn’t have lost, the alternative being that the gp riders don’t have much to do with it anyway.
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The amount of actual mileage a GP rider can put in per year is very limited, especially in recent years. Even back in the day, most top riders were very reluctant to do the mule work, according to multiple reports. Hence the demand for fast test riders like Pirro or Kallio.

The problem also with riders like Rossi and Marquez in my view is that they tend to ride around problems and hence, might not be the best at giving precise feedback. Someone like Lorenzo, who is much more sensitive about bike setup and configuration might be a lot better at it.
 
synn said:
The amount of actual mileage a GP rider can put in per year is very limited, especially in recent years. Even back in the day, most top riders were very reluctant to do the mule work, according to multiple reports. Hence the demand for fast test riders like Pirro or Kallio.

The problem also with riders like Rossi and Marquez in my view is that they tend to ride around problems and hence, might not be the best at giving precise feedback. Someone like Lorenzo, who is much more sensitive about bike setup and configuration might be a lot better at it.
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Sure, one of my own thoughts was that the gp riders don’t do much testing these days in any case.

I am not sure how much Lorenzo has contributed at Ducati, perhaps it is all down to Gigi, but last night even according to the usually not very perceptive commentary team Dovi and Lorenzo were riding their factory Ducatis at equivalent pace at the end of the race using quite different riding styles, suggesting the bike is rather more flexible than it once was. It would be ironic if the bike drops off with Lorenzo gone, of whom I am sure Dovi currently considers himself well rid.
 
Racers don't race very much any more, back in the day as well as world championships you'd see them doing some national events and other major events like Daytona and Suzuka.
 
J4rn0 said:
When Marc arrived in MotoGP, he was 20 and Rossi was 34. This is not speculation. Now, Marc is 25 and Rossi is 39. Make what you want of it. :)
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So Rossi was around the same age as Biaggi and Gibernau when they were Rossi's greatest rivals, Doohan was still dominating and Ago won his last championship when Marquez came into the top class.
 
Keshav said:
What age they were when MM arrived and what age Rossi is, have no bearing whatsoever on the reality that Rossi has been very consistently beaten since MM arrived and MM goes from strength to strength while Rossi, while impressive for his age, is continually the bridesmaid and hasn't won a championship in years. These are not statistics which can be rigged to mean whatever sophist thing suits your narrative. These are the plain facts and no matter how much you like him, you can't spin the facts which are right in plain sight. Marquez wins races and championships while Rossi at best is runner up. Being the winner is by definition what makes MM the better rider in the here and now and Rossi must know that. The man is not deluded. When Stoner was dominating Rossi knew it and spoke to it, saying "Stoner, he ride like a God". He acknowledged a better rider then, what makes you think he would be in denial now?
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You said "better rider" - j4rno was responding to that.

No-one doubts that MM has outdone Rossi (and everyone else) during the period that he graduated to the premier class.
 
RCV600RR said:
You said "better rider" - j4rno was responding to that.

No-one doubts that MM has outdone Rossi (and everyone else) during the period that he graduated to the premier class.
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I like goalposts that don’t move. Empirically speaking in the here and now Marquez is simply the best. We could wait until both riders are retired dream up formulas to calculate the merits of both careers - but for now Marquez consistently beats Rossi and there’s no way around that. I don’t think it’s useful to get into sophist speculation. Reality is what it is.
 
Keshav said:
I like goalposts that don’t move. Empirically speaking in the here and now Marquez is simply the best. We could wait until both riders are retired dream up formulas to calculate the merits of both careers - but for now Marquez consistently beats Rossi and there’s no way around that. I don’t think it’s useful to get into sophist speculation. Reality is what it is.
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But you changed the goalposts, not him.

He simply said that Rossi would not consider Marquez to be superior.

You then changed the comparison to be superior over the time that their careers intersected in the premier class.
 
Okay - the post I responded to was: "If you think Rossi looks at Marquez as his superior, you are seriously wrong."

I would concede that it's possible Rossi may indulge a view of himself from a historical perspective as the grand old man, 9-times etc. vs The New Kid In Town. I will repeat however Rossi's own words regarding Stoner: "He rides like a God". Rossi spoke these very words, in a moment of candor, acknowledging a rider who came a long and changed the whole conversation, and he said it when he was at the height of his career. If he believed that then, why would he not be able to come to terms years later with MM?

I never used the phrase "superior over the time that their careers intersected in the premier class.

I suppose that could be inferred as I related the balance of wins vs runner up positions in terms of races and championships during MM's time in the premiere class. But the same ratio would be extant to varying degrees (always in MM's favor) over the course of any one season he's participated in.

Fact remains in terms of points or races won since MM arrived, it's been a famine for Rossi who knows his days of beating the young Stoners, Lorenzos of the world are largely done with. The dynamic isn't going to improve and Rossi knows it. There was a time... but that's done and Rossi knows it. This I sincerely believe.
 
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Keshav said:
Okay - the post I responded to was: "If you think Rossi looks at Marquez as his superior, you are seriously wrong."

I would concede that it's possible Rossi may indulge a view of himself from a historical perspective as the grand old man, 9-times etc. vs The New Kid In Town. I will repeat however Rossi's own words regarding Stoner: "He rides like a God". Rossi spoke these very words, in a moment of candor, acknowledging a rider who came a long and changed the whole conversation, and he said it when he was at the height of his career. If he believed that then, why would he not be able to come to terms years later with MM?

I never used the phrase "superior over the time that their careers intersected in the premier class.

I suppose that could be inferred as I related the balance of wins vs runner up positions in terms of races and championships during MM's time in the premiere class. But the same ratio would be extant to varying degrees (always in MM's favor) over the course of any one season he's participated in.

Fact remains in terms of points or races won since MM arrived, it's been a famine for Rossi who knows his days of beating the young Stoners, Lorenzos of the world are largely done with. The dynamic isn't going to improve and Rossi knows it. There was a time... but that's done and Rossi knows it. This I sincerely believe.
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Yes, I agree. You were saying different things.

I think Rossi knows that it's the age of Marquez, but he still thinks himself good enough to snatch a championship.
 
I give Rossi credit for being second in the standings but that gap is slowly opening up more and more each race. Marquez is just slowly adding points ahead of Rossi, and even finishing third a Brno and Rossi 4th, it doesn't help Rossi at all other than to try and stay ahead of third place in the standings. Marc has a two race lead now in the standings and he'll manage races just to keep accumulating points. Silverstone is going to be fascinating since I believe he would have won that race last year once he picked up the pace before his engine blew up. He'll probably settle for third this coming weekend.
 
RCV600RR said:
Yes, I agree. You were saying different things.

I think Rossi knows that it's the age of Marquez, but he still thinks himself good enough to snatch a championship.
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I’ve said it numerous times before - that as a geezer, I’d applaud a well won championship by Rossi.
 
RCV600RR said:
Yes, I agree. You were saying different things.

I think Rossi knows that it's the age of Marquez, but he still thinks himself good enough to snatch a championship.
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He is definetlly good enough to pull off an 06 but it will be way more difficult as there are more riders and bikes that can win compared to then. He knows he isn’t going to go out and win 6-7 races , it will take another year like 15 where Marc has 5-6 dnf’s and Ducati slides from their current status. Ducati is doing their part by fielding 2 journeymen next year at a time when they will have the best bike they have ever built. Vinales is in limbo with new crew chief and zero input in development and Suzuki is well ,Suzuki. It’s an extreme long shot but not impossible .
 
JPSLotus said:
I give Rossi credit for being second in the standings but that gap is slowly opening up more and more each race. Marquez is just slowly adding points ahead of Rossi, and even finishing third a Brno and Rossi 4th, it doesn't help Rossi at all other than to try and stay ahead of third place in the standings. Marc has a two race lead now in the standings and he'll manage races just to keep accumulating points. Silverstone is going to be fascinating since I believe he would have won that race last year once he picked up the pace before his engine blew up. He'll probably settle for third this coming weekend.
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Yeah, MM will win the championship easily this year. Easily.
 
Rossi is absolutely betting on a Marquez injury. He knows it's his only hope, and isn't actually such a bad bet this year. Next year however, he will have to lift his game.
 

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