Joined Sep 2006
3K Posts | 4+
Leading
michaelm
I'm so young I have only ever had the Iggy mix, I may get the new two cd set for a comparison though. I heard Bowie's mix was just in the red all the time.
However Ducati led the development I believe (?), which is close enough to receiving a tyre specifically made for them. They were so keen on that idea in fact that when everyone else went to Bridgestone they wanted to switch to Michelin. To continue to recieve priority? Perhaps I should have said priority rather than exclusivity. Either way it doesn't matter as it's the distant past now.
I'm so young I have only ever had the Iggy mix, I may get the new two cd set for a comparison though. I heard Bowie's mix was just in the red all the time.
I think Preziosi was the fall guy for Ducati's financial belt-tightening prior to being sold.
They had to make it look like a decent bet so they hoovered up all the spare cash and put development on the back burner. All the cash to run the team came from sponsorship and there was only a few dribs and drabs to develop the bike with.
Rossi saw this and did a runner, Preziosi took his accumulated leave.
I dont think he became a .... engineer overnight, I think he is a good engineer without any resources to engineer with.
They had to make it look like a decent bet so they hoovered up all the spare cash and put development on the back burner. All the cash to run the team came from sponsorship and there was only a few dribs and drabs to develop the bike with.
Rossi saw this and did a runner, Preziosi took his accumulated leave.
I dont think he became a .... engineer overnight, I think he is a good engineer without any resources to engineer with.
Joined Sep 2006
3K Posts | 4+
Leading
Jumkie
Surely it was Burgess who was giving Michelin the data & asking for specifics? It's not as easy as bolting on a tyre & going is it, what you need is to interpret from the setup what kind of tyre you need. He still had work to do, to make it work. I would call knowing what tyre you want to work with the setup you have at close enough every track as a special skill, Burgess magic Saturday night fix.
Burgess magic Saturday night fix sounds all kindsa wrong!!
See my reply to Michael, Jum, for the first part.
Surely it was Burgess who was giving Michelin the data & asking for specifics? It's not as easy as bolting on a tyre & going is it, what you need is to interpret from the setup what kind of tyre you need. He still had work to do, to make it work. I would call knowing what tyre you want to work with the setup you have at close enough every track as a special skill, Burgess magic Saturday night fix.
Burgess magic Saturday night fix sounds all kindsa wrong!!
Goatboy
Sure. I didn't have much trouble with the sns tyres either; as babelfish (who I miss) argued, for most of their existence the sns tyres were a de facto control tyre in that all the contenders had them, although catch 22 possibly also applied to some extent in that to be a contender you needed to have them. I did object to people who had no problem with sns tyres complaining about ducati developing a tyre to suit them which advantaged stoner, such development for quite a long time being at least theoretically the object of the sport. I was always opposed to the control tyre.
I have a shiny new vinyl copy of Raw Power now, but also had it decades ago when it was unprocurable (in my teen years and some years after its release, I am not quite that old). It was always great on vinyl. The original CD version sounded quite tinny on some of the songs, as did many early cds including the pre-Exile Stones stuff. The Iggy mix is actually more bass heavy in general which suits the other songs, but Raw Power and Search and Destroy didn't need to be heavier than they were (the heaviest music made by humans according to one seventies scribe), and Bowie's mix particularly suited the frenetic James Williamson guitar on Search and Destroy imo.
Sure. I didn't have much trouble with the sns tyres either; as babelfish (who I miss) argued, for most of their existence the sns tyres were a de facto control tyre in that all the contenders had them, although catch 22 possibly also applied to some extent in that to be a contender you needed to have them. I did object to people who had no problem with sns tyres complaining about ducati developing a tyre to suit them which advantaged stoner, such development for quite a long time being at least theoretically the object of the sport. I was always opposed to the control tyre.
I have a shiny new vinyl copy of Raw Power now, but also had it decades ago when it was unprocurable (in my teen years and some years after its release, I am not quite that old). It was always great on vinyl. The original CD version sounded quite tinny on some of the songs, as did many early cds including the pre-Exile Stones stuff. The Iggy mix is actually more bass heavy in general which suits the other songs, but Raw Power and Search and Destroy didn't need to be heavier than they were (the heaviest music made by humans according to one seventies scribe), and Bowie's mix particularly suited the frenetic James Williamson guitar on Search and Destroy imo.
I'm confused... the SNS were available to a very select few riders. They just didn't have the capacity at Michelin to hand-make more than a few tyres at a time. The whole concept of SNS was that the engineering chief would liase with the Michelin guy on the team to work out what compound and lay up was needed for the specific conditions, said Michelin rep would relay to the factory and they would get jiggy making the tyre ASAP. The bottleneck was the tyre techs - both compound and lay-up, as well as the number of autoclaves, etc. They, being a communist-run union shop in the best French tradition, weren't able to just train and equip a whole raft of techs, this was 'art'.
Bridgestone never had the option, even when racing in Japan because they didn't have such a hand-lay-up facility or the tech staff to man it. Bridgestone typically have designed a very stiff carcass and then adjusted compounds and bake time to give them a different spec of tyre. This worked well for them as they could concentrate on making the 'best' carcass and leaving the mystical, magical black art to the chemists.
This has been an on-going issue with Bridgestone - they have been up against it a few times since taking on the GP control tyre obligation in that they can't expand the production line for GP tyres, both because of the specialised equipment needed but more so the specialised operators of that equipment - they are just, this year, up to making enough tyres for all situations as they have added a whole new line at their Nasu plant and improved on their chemical process to cope.
Bridgestone never had the option, even when racing in Japan because they didn't have such a hand-lay-up facility or the tech staff to man it. Bridgestone typically have designed a very stiff carcass and then adjusted compounds and bake time to give them a different spec of tyre. This worked well for them as they could concentrate on making the 'best' carcass and leaving the mystical, magical black art to the chemists.
This has been an on-going issue with Bridgestone - they have been up against it a few times since taking on the GP control tyre obligation in that they can't expand the production line for GP tyres, both because of the specialised equipment needed but more so the specialised operators of that equipment - they are just, this year, up to making enough tyres for all situations as they have added a whole new line at their Nasu plant and improved on their chemical process to cope.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
michaelm
Friend, just trying to understand your reasoning, you were ok with this exclusive relationship in a supposed authentic competition for certain riders while others getting the same brand tire were not extended the privilege? I like how you call it a "de facto control" tire, as indeed there was an attempt to control the winners. Why not just let the "top" riders ('whom ever deemed them so' have a turbo boost too?) Many who supported the SNS, and when I say "supported" I'm talking about a specific fan who was more than happy to see VR win everything, even if it was artificially inflated) have argued the point stumbled on, that it was somewhat of an art to make the SNS. Is this any different to having the best bike, say the current RCV vs a CRT? Its quite possible to .... up a setting on a RCV today so bad that its slower than a CRT, so in that respect, theoretically the complex input has to be correct. However, keep in mind, once they received these SNS, they were not stuck with them or forced to use them, they had the warm up to assess the tire, as we later learned from Pedrosa discarding his to Elias on one fateful afternoon. And as has been said before during the whole Bstone debacle, something I'm sure we can all revisit on wiki, that originally Bstone did not want to expand their supply; eventually they were forced to quite publically as a prelude to the eventual spec tire. And I would give a bit of credence to this notion that this did actually upset the development and supply of such a specific product.
Friend, just trying to understand your reasoning, you were ok with this exclusive relationship in a supposed authentic competition for certain riders while others getting the same brand tire were not extended the privilege? I like how you call it a "de facto control" tire, as indeed there was an attempt to control the winners. Why not just let the "top" riders ('whom ever deemed them so' have a turbo boost too?) Many who supported the SNS, and when I say "supported" I'm talking about a specific fan who was more than happy to see VR win everything, even if it was artificially inflated) have argued the point stumbled on, that it was somewhat of an art to make the SNS. Is this any different to having the best bike, say the current RCV vs a CRT? Its quite possible to .... up a setting on a RCV today so bad that its slower than a CRT, so in that respect, theoretically the complex input has to be correct. However, keep in mind, once they received these SNS, they were not stuck with them or forced to use them, they had the warm up to assess the tire, as we later learned from Pedrosa discarding his to Elias on one fateful afternoon. And as has been said before during the whole Bstone debacle, something I'm sure we can all revisit on wiki, that originally Bstone did not want to expand their supply; eventually they were forced to quite publically as a prelude to the eventual spec tire. And I would give a bit of credence to this notion that this did actually upset the development and supply of such a specific product.
Joined Jul 2006
11K Posts | 291+
Texas
Jumkie
What I think jumkie is that while the sns tyres certainly were not exactly a hindrance to rossi they were not a particular conspiracy in his favour. It was a system which evolved with michelin, the long term premier tyre supplier, and advantaged the top riders at the top teams as has always mostly been the case with most things in motogp.There was talk at the end that they were being slanted more in favour of hrc/dani pedrosa, to which I give some credence.They eventually just became too expensive for michelin to produce, regardless of who they were being produced for.
What I did object to from the perspective of my particular bias as I said was people who had no problem with sns tyres complaing about bridgestone tyre advantages. The urgency with which rossi and pedrosa required and were provided with the tyres as opposed to ducati developing them with bridgestone over several years was perhaps somewhat unseemly as well, although most in their position would probably have done the same if they thought they could get away with it.
In the end the control tyre whilst fair in theory killed suzuki and kawasaki and severely injured ducati, injuries which may still prove fatal. I knew at the time that the rider I followed and the bike he rode had unusual tyre requirements, so my opposition was partly from that point of view.
What I think jumkie is that while the sns tyres certainly were not exactly a hindrance to rossi they were not a particular conspiracy in his favour. It was a system which evolved with michelin, the long term premier tyre supplier, and advantaged the top riders at the top teams as has always mostly been the case with most things in motogp.There was talk at the end that they were being slanted more in favour of hrc/dani pedrosa, to which I give some credence.They eventually just became too expensive for michelin to produce, regardless of who they were being produced for.
What I did object to from the perspective of my particular bias as I said was people who had no problem with sns tyres complaing about bridgestone tyre advantages. The urgency with which rossi and pedrosa required and were provided with the tyres as opposed to ducati developing them with bridgestone over several years was perhaps somewhat unseemly as well, although most in their position would probably have done the same if they thought they could get away with it.
In the end the control tyre whilst fair in theory killed suzuki and kawasaki and severely injured ducati, injuries which may still prove fatal. I knew at the time that the rider I followed and the bike he rode had unusual tyre requirements, so my opposition was partly from that point of view.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
Goatboy
Did Ducati ever demand exclusivity? They didnt demand priority. The tires that worked for Ducati worked just as well for Suzuki. They were the David of the story. Yamaha and Honda were Goliath and made all the demands and wanted all the priority. Ducati's whole pholisophy was to be different and take gambles. Yet the minute their gamble paid off, Carmelo decided to stack even more odds against them and give the other big yellow Goliath a leg up. Lets not try and make Ducati out to be anything other than the guys who put in all the hard work trying to be innovative only to get screwed.
Did Ducati ever demand exclusivity? They didnt demand priority. The tires that worked for Ducati worked just as well for Suzuki. They were the David of the story. Yamaha and Honda were Goliath and made all the demands and wanted all the priority. Ducati's whole pholisophy was to be different and take gambles. Yet the minute their gamble paid off, Carmelo decided to stack even more odds against them and give the other big yellow Goliath a leg up. Lets not try and make Ducati out to be anything other than the guys who put in all the hard work trying to be innovative only to get screwed.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
Goatboy
If this were true there would be no need for the sudden change to Bridgestone, because surely Rossi and Burgess would know what tire to get the best performance. The special skill is political, to demand and recieve only the best. Fact is they relied totally on Michelin to do it for them, and the minute Michelin failed (2007) they were thrown under the same bus as Prezi.
If this were true there would be no need for the sudden change to Bridgestone, because surely Rossi and Burgess would know what tire to get the best performance. The special skill is political, to demand and recieve only the best. Fact is they relied totally on Michelin to do it for them, and the minute Michelin failed (2007) they were thrown under the same bus as Prezi.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
BJ.C
Goatboy
Only if you get caught. There are many ways legal and otherwise to get there. For those unwilling to deal with going through bureaucratic hoops to get special permissions, it's easy to go via Canada, Nassau or through Cancun or Mexico City. At the immigration desk in Havana they give you little card to keep in your visa and you return it on the way out. Your passport does not get stamped. I was staying with a lady (via a museum connection) who grew up with and worked alongside Che Guevara. The pollution and the food are terrible, as are the combined results of Fidel's failed policies and the US's stupid embargo. But the people are great, the post revolution art is incredible and should rightfully be exhibited in world class museums alongside the work of Picasso and Diego Rivera. But more than anything, the music is incredible. When I get home I will upload my photos to Photobucket. The width and breadth of the selection of beautifully refurbished American cars from the '30s - '50s all still being driven in the street must give the Barrett-Jackson people eternal blue balls
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Isn't that illegal?
Goatboy
Only if you get caught. There are many ways legal and otherwise to get there. For those unwilling to deal with going through bureaucratic hoops to get special permissions, it's easy to go via Canada, Nassau or through Cancun or Mexico City. At the immigration desk in Havana they give you little card to keep in your visa and you return it on the way out. Your passport does not get stamped. I was staying with a lady (via a museum connection) who grew up with and worked alongside Che Guevara. The pollution and the food are terrible, as are the combined results of Fidel's failed policies and the US's stupid embargo. But the people are great, the post revolution art is incredible and should rightfully be exhibited in world class museums alongside the work of Picasso and Diego Rivera. But more than anything, the music is incredible. When I get home I will upload my photos to Photobucket. The width and breadth of the selection of beautifully refurbished American cars from the '30s - '50s all still being driven in the street must give the Barrett-Jackson people eternal blue balls
michaelm
I have never seen any evidence of either of your claims.
Each tyre was individually crafted to the specifications for the specific rider - that's the whole reason for the process in the first place. Developing a handmade tyre for Pedrosa that was destined for Rossi just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. That is also the reason why there was only a few favoured riders getting them. The other riders got them off the truck, not the plane. They carried a huge amount of tyres though, compared to today - tens of compounds in various carcass constructions, qualifiers, wets, intermediates. If you had a canny setup guy, a motivated Michelin tech and a top-flight lead engineer, you could get the right tyre to solve al your handling and traction woes.
As to costs, other than wages, the cost for making those tyres in 2000 wouldn't be appreciably more than in 1985. The benefit to Michelin of their rider winning the race and gaining the other two podiums is immense. The cost of manufacture and the logistics of delivery are a tiny amount compared to the amount Michelin were spending on advertising. They stopped making SNS when Dorna made it illegal and for no other reason. If it were allowed, they would still be doing it today.
I have never seen any evidence of either of your claims.
Each tyre was individually crafted to the specifications for the specific rider - that's the whole reason for the process in the first place. Developing a handmade tyre for Pedrosa that was destined for Rossi just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. That is also the reason why there was only a few favoured riders getting them. The other riders got them off the truck, not the plane. They carried a huge amount of tyres though, compared to today - tens of compounds in various carcass constructions, qualifiers, wets, intermediates. If you had a canny setup guy, a motivated Michelin tech and a top-flight lead engineer, you could get the right tyre to solve al your handling and traction woes.
As to costs, other than wages, the cost for making those tyres in 2000 wouldn't be appreciably more than in 1985. The benefit to Michelin of their rider winning the race and gaining the other two podiums is immense. The cost of manufacture and the logistics of delivery are a tiny amount compared to the amount Michelin were spending on advertising. They stopped making SNS when Dorna made it illegal and for no other reason. If it were allowed, they would still be doing it today.
BJ.C
Sure, I am repeating various rumours that were around in 2007 after the fact.
Certainly michelin were in trouble financially in general then though, and the overall expense of the motogp programme may have been problematic, although they did say in 2008 they wished to continue, just not with a control tyre. The cost of the tyres may have been problematic for dorna as well, I am fairly sure michelin charged at least some of the teams.
Sure, I am repeating various rumours that were around in 2007 after the fact.
Certainly michelin were in trouble financially in general then though, and the overall expense of the motogp programme may have been problematic, although they did say in 2008 they wished to continue, just not with a control tyre. The cost of the tyres may have been problematic for dorna as well, I am fairly sure michelin charged at least some of the teams.
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