Preziosi resigns from Ducati

Jumkie · Mar 3, 2013

Mental Anarchist said:
Ducati got competitive by having the best rider of a generation - Casey Stoner.

Disagree. They were highly competitive in 06 which was on the heels of progression from 05. So much so that they were on target to win a title. They had wins and podiums under multiple riders. Again, Catalunya 06 bad luck changed all that.

I would say they were less competitive as a machine, once they signed Casey. Their high water mark was 06. In 07 they were 'just' good enuf to win the title. That is when Casey made the difference, as in reality judging the package as a whole among their other riders, it was actually less competitive than 06. Every year after that they were progressively defanged.

And on the topic of Prezi. Unfortunately his fate was linked mostly to Stoner, directly & indirectly, allow me to explain briefly. The league was hell bent on slowing down Stoner despite employing an Einstein to develop their bike. It was easy to tinker with pivots on which the project was hinged, desmotromic system, tires & chassisless engine-stress-member design. What Prezi created was then subject to the league's tinkering of those pressure points. Im taking to a tee. First the failed attempt to limit revs, second, the elimination of their tire relationship with Bstones, and engine rule to boot. Perhaps the only thing left to do was to impose a ban in GP to use red colored fairings.

I say directly and indirectly linked fate to Prezi because while they employed Stoner, the league sought to slow down his designs given that the villian was too fast on them, yet while they employed VR, the testing limits were relaxed suddenly and inexplicably ala the rookie rule, then the pressure to elevate The Darling ushered in the Unthinkable--Prezi was forced to acquiesce to pressure and deliver to VR a Jap-cloneGP12. Which he then proceeded to cruise around giving them .... feedback knowing damn well Carmelo Clause was making deals to deliver not a Jap-clone but an actual Jap bike. The GP13 is really just a GP12 one year in to zero noteworthy feedback since they spent all of last year listening to VR who was giving them lip service "we will stay together". (Though J4rno has disputed what the helmet message meant in regards to the famous clown Italian commedian. I dont know, he might be right, .... i think they might have elected a comedian clown (Beppe Grillo) recently or something like that..., so what do i know).

michaelm · Mar 3, 2013

Goatboy

3446521362372293

Seems to me that Ducati got competitive by having their own form of SNS in the form of an exclusive contract with Bridgestone.

Except that it wasn't exclusive to ducati. Suzuki definitely had them, and I think kawasaki and one of the honda satellite teams.

I actually had no problem with rossi or pedrosa getting the bridgestones if they wanted them, but ducati should have been allowed to continue to develop tyres which suited their bike, either with bridgestone or with michelin as they asked to do rather than acquiesce to a control tyre. The control tyre certainly doesn't seem to have evened the playing field or reduced costs.

It is actually the 40th anniversary of "Raw Power" this year btw, and Iggy is now 65 or so, which is rather disturbing. I still prefer it on vinyl. On CD Bowie's mix is better for "Raw Power" and "Search and Destroy", Iggy's for the rest of the songs imo.

michaelm · Mar 3, 2013

Jumkie

3446541362372859

Disagree. They were highly competitive in 06 which was on the heels of progression from 05. So much so that they were on target to win a title. They had wins and podiums under multiple riders. Again, Catalunya 06 bad luck changed all that. I would say they were less competitive as a machine, once they signed Casey. Their high water mark was 06. In 07 they were 'just' good enuf to win the title. That is when Casey made the difference, as in reality judging the package as a whole among their other riders, it was actually less competitive than 06. Every year after that they were progressively defanged. And on the topic of Prezi. Unfortunately his fate was linked mostly to Stoner, directly & indirectly, allow me to explain briefly. The league was hell bent on slowing down Stoner despite employing an Einstein to develop their bike. It was easy to tinker with pivots on which the project was hinged, desmotromic system, tires & chassisless engine-stress-member design. What Prezi created was then subject to the league's tinkering of those pressure points. Im taking to a tee. First the failed attempt to limit revs, second, the elimination of their tire relationship with Bstones, and engine rule to boot. Perhaps the only thing left to do was to impose a ban in GP to use red colored fairings. I say directly and indirectly linked fate to Prezi because while they employed Stoner, the league sought to slow down his designs given that the villian was too fast on them, yet while they employed VR, the testing limits were relaxed suddenly and inexplicably ala the rookie rule, then the pressure to elevate The Darling ushered in the Unthinkable--Prezi was forced to acquiesce to pressure and deliver to VR a Jap-cloneGP12. Which he then proceeded to cruise around giving them .... feedback knowing damn well Carmelo Clause was making deals to deliver not a Jap-clone but an actual Jap bike. The GP13 is really just a GP12 one year in to zero noteworthy feedback since they spent all of last year listening to VR who was giving them lip service "we will stay together". (Though J4rno has disputed what the helmet message meant in regards to the famous clown Italian commedian. I dont know, he might be right, .... i think they might have elected a comedian clown recently or something like that..., so what do i know).

You did suggest I was paranoid for suggesting the late rule changes last year were to nobble stoner, and actually convinced me to an extent, as I always respect your opinion. Interesting though that dorna and honda no longer seem to be in dispute with stoner gone, although this admittedly could be coincidental.

Jumkie · Mar 3, 2013

Goatboy said:
Seems to me that Ducati got competitive by having their own form of SNS in the form of an exclusive contract with Bridgestone.

No comparison sir. The SNS was an 'exclusive relation with only exclusive riders.' That is, NOT all Michelin riders got SNS. And...not all SNS were the good stuff. The Michelin riders were on a teir system. Do some homework buddy. Case in point, Elias' only win in MotoGP came quite literally on SNS that were discarded by Pedrosa. Though Michelin provided all Honda riders on their roll, those Honda riders did not get the same tier of tires. I know u will selectively not believe this, but Casey Stoner did not get the top tier Michelins on a satellite Honda as did the factory rider Pedrosa. It was the same for the Yamaha factory vs satellite riders employing Michelins. I know ur a VR fan and will just shut me down on this, but that "magical Burgess Sunday morning find" from Saturday's qual to Sunday's improved race pace was more often than not a SNS tire delivery.

To contrast, The exclusive relationship Bridgestone had with Ducati is the same one they had with Suzuki & Kawasaki. There was no tier system as was for Michelin given their SNS. All three brands benefited from, in affect working together, to in a sense collectively, challenge the Honda/Yamaha juggernaut. Suzuki was scratching on a breakthrough, notching podiums and even a win, while Kawasaki was making some progress of their own with their particular riders. Make no mistake these gains were in part from their relationship with Bridgestone! Ducati, and in no small part since we're on the subject of Prezi's genius, made the best of this tire relationship. But in no way were Bridgestone giving Ducati the "good stuff" while leaving Suzuki and Kawasaki out to dry--as was the dynamic with the Michelin SNS. Big difference.

Jumkie · Mar 3, 2013

michaelm said:
You did suggest I was paranoid for suggesting the late rule changes last year were to nobble stoner, and actually convinced me to an extent, as I always respect your opinion. Interesting though that dorna and honda no longer seem to be in dispute with stoner gone, although this admittedly could be coincidental.

Friend, i'd be happy to go over this with u. Fine line but worth the distinction. The rule change was subject to a vote was it not?

Geonerd · Mar 3, 2013

Jumkie

3446581362374526

Friend, i'd be happy to go over this with u. Fine line but worth the distinction. The rule change was subject to a vote was it not?

Jumkie - 'Close your eyes. What do you hear?'

Michael, Krop, others who lack enlightenment. - 'I hear the water. I hear the birds.'

'Do you hear your own heartbeat?'

'No.'

'Do you hear the grasshopper which at your feet?'

Opens his eyes and looks down, at his feet to see a grasshopper there. Slightly startled, 'Old Man, how is it that you hear these things?'

'Young Man, how is it that you do not?'

One should not casually dismiss the wisdom Jumkie freely shares.

Heed his words. One day you too may achieve serenity and clarity of thought.

Dr No · Mar 3, 2013

Mental Anarchist

3446501362367533

Ducati got competitive by having the best rider of a generation - Casey Stoner.

<strike>Oh.</strike>

<strike>So a win in their debut season, on a bike that looked like it was built in a shed, wasn't competitive? 2006 wasn't such a bad year either.</strike>

<strike>But I do agree that Stoner was the difference between 'competitive' and 'winning'.</strike>

<span style="font-size:10px;Nevermind. Wrote that reply before I got to the next page.

Jumkie · Mar 3, 2013

Beppe Grillo

michaelm · Mar 4, 2013

Jumkie

3446581362374526

Friend, i'd be happy to go over this with u. Fine line but worth the distinction. The rule change was subject to a vote was it not?

The weight change may well have been aimed at helping the crt bikes (and ducati) rather than nobbling honda/stoner, but changing it 1 month before the season after the bikes have been built and tested in good faith for over a year still seems a strange way to run a major racing series to me, regardless of honda's possible misdeeds (other than providing a bike on which a dastardly australian rider could win a championship) in general.The decision was made by dorna btw and required a unanimous vote by the msma to be vetoed. The way that vote became non-unanimous remains unclear to me, and in particular whether honda fibbed at the time of the initial vote or the vote became non-unanimous retrospectively. I don't have much problem with ducati sticking it to honda if they did, they have been royally screwed by the msma, but also by dorna imo.

Andy Roo · Mar 4, 2013

michaelm

3446561362373755

You did suggest I was paranoid for suggesting the late rule changes last year were to nobble stoner, and actually convinced me to an extent, as I always respect your opinion. Interesting though that dorna and honda no longer seem to be in dispute with stoner gone, although this admittedly could be coincidental.

The power of coincidence diminishes with repetition.

After a while it can't look anything other than deliberate. Like that woman who constantly walks into the door jam giving her (another) black eye. Ezy is the abusive drunken husband of motorcycle racing.

michaelm · Mar 4, 2013

Jumkie

3446571362374288

No comparison sir. The SNS was an 'exclusive relation with only exclusive riders.' That is, NOT all Michelin riders got SNS. And...not all SNS were the good stuff. The Michelin riders were on a teir system. Do some homework buddy. Case in point, Elias' only win in MotoGP came quite literally on SNS that were discarded by Pedrosa. Though Michelin provided all Honda riders on their roll, those Honda riders did not get the same tier of tires. I know u will selectively not believe this, but Casey Stoner did not get the top tier Michelins on a satellite Honda as did the factory rider Pedrosa. It was the same for the Yamaha factory vs satellite riders employing Michelins. I know ur a VR fan and will just shut me down on this, but that "magical Burgess Sunday morning find" from Saturday's qual to Sunday's improved race pace was more often than not a SNS tire delivery. To contrast, The exclusive relationship Bridgestone had with Ducati is the same one they had with Suzuki & Kawasaki. There was no tier system as was for Michelin given their SNS. All three brands benefited from, in affect working together, to in a sense collectively, challenge the Honda/Yamaha juggernaut. Suzuki was scratching on a breakthrough, notching podiums and even a win, while Kawasaki was making some progress of their own with their particular riders. Make no mistake these gains were in part from their relationship with Bridgestone! Ducati, and in no small part since we're on the subject of Prezi's genius, made the best of this tire relationship. But in no way were Bridgestone giving Ducati the "good stuff" while leaving Suzuki and Kawasaki out to dry--as was the dynamic with the Michelin SNS. Big difference.

Gresini had bridgestones in 2007 as well, as I thought.

Mental Anarchist · Mar 4, 2013

In 2006 a decent rider could win or podium on almost any bike in the field. They were far less sophisticated bikes and the riding style that suited them was a very easy style. Point shoot to the next braking point, brake hard, square corner, point shoot ......... In reality you didn't need much more than the right number of horses and the right tyre that could lay down the power. Ducati have never had a deficient stable of horses. In 2006, Ducati had 2 riders who were very proficient at this style, so having the biggest motor and finally a tyre that was able to lay it down they were competitive but then everyone was competitive so it was nothing exclusive.

2007 was completely different because the style had changed significantly but yet Ducati only had a motor. Which in the hands of the guys who had been successful at point and shoot was completely useless because it was now all about corner speed. What Stoner was able to do was maintain corner speed whilst using the motor as if he was pointing and shooting by driving the rear around the front before the apex. A skill no one could do then and still can't today.

So in reality Ducati have never really been competitive above and beyond what everyone else had like Honda and Yamaha have at different times in history.

J4rn0 · Mar 4, 2013

Being competitive doesn't mean being dominant. Of course when one is competitive, it means one is able to compete with the best at more or less the same level.

To become dominant, Ducati needed Stoner. Then it lasted just one season.

Probably we could dare to say that Ducati has been consistently more competitive than some others though, including a couple of Japanese factories now retired from MotoGP.

michaelm · Mar 4, 2013

J4rn0

3446741362399987

Being competitive doesn't mean being dominant. Of course when one is competitive, it means one is able to compete with others at more or less the same level.

To become dominant, Ducati needed Stoner. Then it lasted just one season.

Probably we could dare to say that Ducati has been consistently more competitive than some others though, including a couple of Japanese factories now retired from MotoGP.

I have always wondered what happened at the start of 2008. The explanations for stoner's 2 late season post laguna seca dnfs are varied ( the start of the front end problems, a result of a "win it or bin it" strategy because wins were his only chance for the championship given the points situation, mental domination/jedi mind tricks by valentino or whatever) post laguna seca, but I never understood or heard any explanation of what went on early season, when the bike wouldn't turn at all at the tight european tracks, followed by the mechanical dnf and return to the 2007 engine.

J4rn0 · Mar 4, 2013

Whatever important happened in 2008, well, it wasn't at Ducati: it was rather that Yamaha, soon followed by Honda, deployed their counter-measures in style. So they put on pneumatic valves to increase rpm and horsepower, developed the electronics at a furious pace, and got the Bridgestones, effectively neutralizing the three perceived advantages Ducati had in 2007. As a consequence Stoner was now on a bike left with its handling disadvantages only (and no advantages to compensate for them), so he was obliged to risk more if he wanted to win, and crashed more. Trying to re-find their edge with a bike that had no significant margins of development left (in the circumstances), Ducati entered into confusion not realizing that the changed situation required a radically different bike and not just new materials for the same kind of frame or new firing orders for the same engine. There is nothing more to it I think... The pressure accumulatd on Stoner due to the objective situation, not to any so called mind games.

Jumkie · Mar 4, 2013

Mental Anarchist

3446721362397619

In 2006 a decent rider could win or podium on almost any bike in the field. They were far less sophisticated bikes and the riding style that suited them was a very easy style. Point shoot to the next braking point, brake hard, square corner, point shoot ......... In reality you didn't need much more than the right number of horses and the right tyre that could lay down the power. Ducati have never had a deficient stable of horses. In 2006, Ducati had 2 riders who were very proficient at this style, so having the biggest motor and finally a tyre that was able to lay it down they were competitive but then everyone was competitive so it was nothing exclusive.

2007 was completely different because the style had changed significantly but yet Ducati only had a motor. Which in the hands of the guys who had been successful at point and shoot was completely useless because it was now all about corner speed. What Stoner was able to do was maintain corner speed whilst using the motor as if he was pointing and shooting by driving the rear around the front before the apex. A skill no one could do then and still can't today.

So in reality Ducati have never really been competitive above and beyond what everyone else had like Honda and Yamaha have at different times in history.

Well buddy, i see it a bit different, gonna have to disagree with ur take, especially the first paragraph, though i agree, 07 was "completely different" (well, it was a new formula.) First of all, the point of debate was whether or not Ducati had created a competitive bike in 2006, the answer is a resounding YES; despite your over simplistic assertion that the only thing require to compete on a 06 bike was a certain style given according to ur logic, the bikes were far less sophisticated. The 500 two-strokes were "far less sophisticated" too buddy, and all that was required was to have a set of balls, easy enuf right? You mistake this notion of 'riding style' by the name of "point and shoot" as if we were talking about a pocket camera, where the "point and shoot" connotation is of the same type of ' user friendly automatic operation'. I think J4rno lends a bit of clarity with his description to the debate point: "competitive doesn't mean dominant” In your attempt to move the point of debate you actually inadvertently admit that all the bikes were competitive amongst eachother, which means that Ducati (a small outfit) had then in fact created a competitive machine in 2006. Lets not go underestimating the difficulty of making a GP bike to compete with the HRC and Yamaha of its day buddy. In addition, there was good reason as it was the tail end of a formula cycle, which is when entries are most competitive with eachother! Unlike 07 where the bikes were re-formulated and deviation between the entries was to be expected.
J4rn0

3446741362399987

Being competitive doesn't mean being dominant. Of course when one is competitive, it means one is able to compete with the best at more or less the same level.

michaelm · Mar 4, 2013

Jumkie

3446791362414383

Well buddy, i see it a bit different, gonna have to disagree with ur take, especially the first paragraph, though i agree, 07 was "completely different" (well, it was a new formula.) First of all, the point of debate was whether or not Ducati had created a competitive bike in 2006, the answer is a resounding YES; despite your over simplistic assertion that the only thing require to compete on a 06 bike was a certain style given according to ur logic, the bikes were far less sophisticated. The 500 two-strokes were "far less sophisticated" too buddy, and all that was required was to have a set of balls, easy enuf right? You mistake this notion of 'riding style' by the name of "point and shoot" as if we were talking about a pocket camera, where the "point and shoot" connotation is of the same type of ' user friendly automatic operation'. I think J4rno lends a bit of clarity with his description to the debate point: "competitive doesn't mean dominant” In your attempt to move the point of debate you actually inadvertently admit that all the bikes were competitive amongst eachother, which means that Ducati (a small outfit) had then in fact created a competitive machine in 2006. Lets not go underestimating the difficulty of making a GP bike to compete with the HRC and Yamaha of its day buddy. In addition, there was good reason as it was the tail end of a formula cycle, which is when entries are most competitive with eachother! Unlike 07 where the bikes were re-formulated and deviation between the entries was to be expected.

That's the bottom line I think. It was a time when the bikes were not so horrendously expensive and technically complex, and when there had been stable rules for several years, allowing more than the 4 yamaha and honda factory bikes to be competitive.

gui22a · Mar 4, 2013

Prezi breaks the silence. Read:

http://manziana.motocorse.com/blog/33354_intervista_a_Filippo.php

Needs translation by Google.

Keshav · Mar 4, 2013

gui22a

3446921362440554

Prezi breaks the silence. Read:

http://manziana.motocorse.com/blog/33354_intervista_a_Filippo.php

Needs translation by Google.

After schlogging through headache-making Google translation the last bit of text says: To avoid any misunderstandings that are already happening on twitter and facebook this interview is not 'never took place and only a dream pure imagination ..... filled with some truth ....

Wonder what Dave has to say about this. If it's his health - totally understandable. I still recall reading (with dread) the Rainey bio and his frank descriptions of the difficulties of day to day life with a body that is dead weight from the waist down. If he were to be remembered only for his accomplishments with WSBK effort - I'd say The Prez is already a historical figure in bike racing. I wish him well whatever the case.

Sorry to be late to the party. Just got back from Cuba where internet is a nightmarish joke.

michaelm · Mar 4, 2013

J4rn0

3446771362407863

Whatever important happened in 2008, well, it wasn't at Ducati: it was rather that Yamaha, soon followed by Honda, deployed their counter-measures in style. So they put on pneumatic valves to increase rpm and horsepower, developed the electronics at a furious pace, and got the Bridgestones, effectively neutralizing the three perceived advantages Ducati had in 2007. As a consequence Stoner was now on a bike left with its handling disadvantages only (and no advantages to compensate for them), so he was obliged to risk more if he wanted to win, and crashed more. Trying to re-find their edge with a bike that had no significant margins of development left (in the circumstances), Ducati entered into confusion not realizing that the changed situation required a radically different bike and not just new materials for the same kind of frame or new firing orders for the same engine. There is nothing more to it I think... The pressure accumulatd on Stoner due to the objective situation, not to any so called mind games.

Sure, no doubt that yamaha particularly and honda upped their act in terms of engine power and electronics, and that furusawa and rossi again went the right way by continuing to develop the yamaha as an all round bike rather than going for all out power which briefly looked the way to go and was briefly perhaps considered even by rossi and yamaha. Certainly the mugello and brno crashes could easily be attributable to stoner pushing too hard although this is not what he said happened.

As I recall there was more to the 2008 ducati early season than that though, where after being dominant at qatar then not being competitive with the front runners for several european races culminating in the mechanical dnf at le mans they went back to the 2007 engine. Following this he was then really fast again winning several races going into laguna seca, and even there he was very fast and certainly did not come unstuck by pushing the bike too hard. As I recall there was also a midseason electronics update.Lex's theory is that they started to restrict the technology of the bridgestones in preparation for the control tyre the following year after qatar, but I don't recall ducati or stoner complaining about the tyres at that stage. Maybe it was just a run of tracks favourable to him.

Stoner didn't have any front end race loses in 2009 btw, and consistently said during that year that the bike was fine and that the problem was his health.

Search

Search

Preziosi resigns from Ducati

Jumkie

michaelm

michaelm

Jumkie

Jumkie

Geonerd

Dr No

Jumkie

michaelm

Andy Roo

michaelm

Mental Anarchist

J4rn0

michaelm

J4rn0

Jumkie

michaelm

gui22a

Keshav

michaelm

Similar threads

Recent Discussions