So what if the telemetry showed Marquez slowed down once he overtook Rossi ? It can be his strategy to end up in front of Rossi at the end of the race. The Race Directors told that many riders do this.
So what if the telemetry showed Marquez slowed down once he overtook Rossi ? It can be his strategy to end up in front of Rossi at the end of the race. The Race Directors told that many riders do this.
Joined Oct 2015
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Texas
I don't know man. The level of aggression Marc showed to fight Rossi for 3rd place so early in the race is suspect if front end issues were compromising his ability to control his machine. That's damn near suggesting he was perfectly ok with an increased possibility of taking Rossi out. Understandable if he was still in championship contention, but suspect because he is not.
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Marc always rides hard. I don't agree with it for the reason being that his inability to dial it down earlier this season led to a number of unforced errors in races he had zero chance of winning or could not hold position. He has 6 DNF's. 5 of which were preventable. If he finishes all 6 races, he is leading the championship as we speak going into Valencia.
Several years ago when Sebastian Vettel was going for his third straight world title in F1, it came down to the final race at Interlagos in Brazil. I was not a Vettel fan at the time, and did not want to see him win the title. At the start of the race he was in P4, there was a coming together in the 2nd turn area, and he got spun around, putting him in dead last. He also suffered a damaged floor and exhaust, which were highly important to the RB8 car. I thought he was done, and Fernando Alonso would be world champion. Didn't work out. Vettel stormed back and finish 4th which was enough to give him the title by 3 points.
What I remember most about that race was the total lack of fight other drivers put up. It was absolute .... to watch. Drivers with faster cars have come to expect that everyone should move out of their way and not put up a fight at all. I grew up in an era where there was no such thing as freebie overtakes, and you had to fight for them even against backmarkers at times. VR should not have the expectation that others on machines just as fast as his is, should move for him. It's poor form and not good for the fans.
Joined Oct 2015
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You're right, Marc does always ride hard and I believe he even said in the "Hitting the Apex" movie that on the edge is the only way he knows how to ride. However, if he was struggling with his bike, a cooler head would've seen him wait a bit, get into a good rhythm, then when he has a good feeling from the bike... overtake Rossi and goes on about his business. That's not giving Rossi anything, just racing in a smarter way.
Marc seemed to be riding mad and I'm sure Rossi's comments on Thursday had a lot to do with it. If Marc actually believes Rossi was at fault for his crash in Argentina and he "cheated" in Assen then that may also have been fuel for his anger.
Well he wouldn’t be the only one with the ..... on the grid given happennings since a certain press conference on Thursday.
Grip off the grid may be an issue.
Laws do already exist actually.
They would include such things as weight rules, rider equipment rules, additional equipment rules and so on.
You must remember that riding and bike equipment must undergo scrutineering and anything found abnormal or considered dangerous will result in the respective equipment not passing and thus not being allowed. And yes, I do know that they often subtly check the bikes as they leave pits etc.
CNN as are all of the Fanbois (not sports fans who support Rossi) are grasping at straws that do not exist.
The fact remains that Race Direction issued a penalty after finding a rider guilty of breaking the written rules of the sport.
It was said to be around the 40MPH (may have been KMH but recall the 40) mark well below the general speed of that corner
Cool
The two translations I saw were actually quite interesting with one saying that Agostini was critical of Rossi for the comments (as you have stated) but also was very critical of his action within the race simply saying that Rossi acted childishly and petulant.
He also was said (or reported) to have expressed that the sanction was light as any sanction should have applied to the race in which the action occurred (from memory of the transaltion I saw he believed hat Rossi should have been docked of the 16 points
In general it was said that his take was similar to Mamola’s in that Rossi over reacted to racing
The difference is that MM was also found guilty by Race Direction, albeit "not punishable under the rules". You like to gliss over that significant part of Race Direction's conclusions, but it's there. Until you acknowledge it, you are just playing deaf pretending it's only my opinion against yours, but it's not.
J4, From Mike Webb’s comments (have cut the relevant part out)
“Despite what Marquez said we think he was deliberately trying to affect the pace of Valentino. However he didn't actually break any rules. Whatever we think about the spirit of the championship, according to the rule book he didn't make contact. His passes were clean. He rode within the rules.
Nowhere does he say that Marquez WAS guilty, as he uses the term ‘we think’
It may be pedantic (I know) but within many schools of law the word think is an opinion and as such is not a fact.
Whilst I do not disagree with your premise, no doubt that Webb chose his words very carefully as were he to use the term guilty it would have opened a whole new can of worms in terms of the punishments dished out to Rossi, but the ‘on punishment’ of Marquez
Again, it is pedantic but whilst he implies guilt, he does not outright state it as he knows the consequences of doing so.
Kesh, qualifying pace is totally irrelevant as at that stage they are only after a fast lap or two, it is the longer ‘race type’ runs that are more critical but irrespective, it all overlooks that the conditions of the day at race time may have caused or affected MM’s bike in a manner to slow it down.
Whilst there may be circumstantial evidence to support the suggestion that MM was deliberately slowing Rossi down, there have also been comments regarding tyre issues at PI (supported by a Brad Smith prior experience) and so forth.
I am sure that the evidence of either way exists, just that lap times are not the be all of it that people seem to be focusing on as one must look at how that lap is constructed, section times, corner speeds, braking points and so on. None of which we have available and all of which is available via telemetry
I am not arguing either way here as I see both sides, but the end result is that MM has not broken any rules and whilst some may argue he has broken the spirit of rules the fact is, the spirit only applies to those that wish to abide by it. History has shown that BOTH protagonists in this issue are willing to step outside the spirit of the rulebook to benefit themselves.
The stupid petition is also getting mainstream media coverage over here as well Jums .......... mind you, the feedback wasn't what the Rossi Fanbois (do I need to keep typing this - not the sports fans who support Rossi) expected
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As I have said, I do not subscribe to the Yellow Army (TM) viewpoint, and you quite are right to expect that each rider should be able to ride his own race, regardless of the point in time of the championship.
Regarding MM being spiteful and petty, yet racing for position legally, I made a point in the race thread to JPS/Frack (and later to Jumkie) about the "risk of death" that they were touting about this incident.
The point being that they were doing 30mph at most and there was 70ft of dry smooth tarmac run off available to Marquez where the incident occurred.
Obviously that tarmac is beyond the track limits and no one should force another rider to go there. A couple of overtakes earlier Marquez had run Rossi out to the track limits and Rossi slotted in behind him which is unexceptional and seen more than once most races between one rider or another.
When Rossi took Marques out wide and slow, Marquez closed his line twice towards Rossi in that corner, the first time whilst well over 10ft from the white line delineating the track limits. The second time, at least 5ft away from the line, contact occurred and MM crashed.
Rossi pushed MM to the track limits and was deemed to have caused a crash by this behaviour, hence the penalty. This I am not disputing. However, MM has supreme bike control and yet apparently was unable to either slow slightly and slot in behind Rossi or open the steering in order to take advantage of the large run off area.
Bear in mind that some of the gaps between Rossi and the white line on the inside of the corners that Marquez had so recently threaded his RCV through were also less than 5ft and at significantly higher speeds.
Not accusing MM of deliberately dropping it, any more than I think Rossi kicked him off the bike, but it does seem odd...
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Absolutely and just like the old days.
There was never any whinging about racing hard right up until the end of the championship in years past and there were even times of tough passes put on championship leaders in the latter stages of a championship year
If any rider gets out of Rossi’s way in this race, will the fanbois screen ‘unfair’ or ‘race fix’, of course not and yet both those actions and those alleged of MM are the same . an action undertaken to impact another rider’s championship chances
Personally I sit here waiting to see the hypocrisy of the situation post Valencia
Seriously here dude . you guys need to make up your mind. Was MM trying to fix a race or the championship ?
RD have not condoned race fixing and there are rules around that so keep trying to grasp at the straws here.
Now let me ask you, if ANY rider makes it easier for Valentino to pass at Valencia will you scream ‘race fixing’?
Whilst there are probably reading within MM’s data they would have been compared to all others to form an opinion.
And while yes, Webb would have had access to this data it is just as likely to have shown little support of the allegation that having supported the allegation. No team will make their telemetry public and so those not privy to it can postulate all they want but the over riding fact is that there would have been comparisons made between ALL riders involved to forum an opinion. My suggestion is that the results of such a data grab may well surprise people.
No.
But as mentioned a few lines up, I do suspect that a full check of the Telemetry of ALL bikes would show some interesting behaviours and may well shock some people.
The telemetry (were it referenced as I would suspect) would give speeds (both wheel speed and possibly real), braking force and coupled with the location data could say whether the brakes were employed earlier, later and with what force. It would also show the throttle percentages, suspension travel and so on.
The thing here is that there are allegation, some of which may be proved by telemetry (ie. He braked earlier) but many that may well be disproved as well (ie. He was driving slower out of corners etc), plus the telemetry may well support MM saying he lost the front and so on.
Telemetry is a wonderful thing but is a package and needs to be looked at as such and my honest suspicion is that there may be some telemetry that shows (as an example only) MM slower on corner entry at a specific point on the track. But I suspect that same telemetry may show the same level of brake application and point of braking with a difference in front wheel speed (examples only) where a comparison to the telemetry of (example only) Rossi, may show a faster corner entry with a later brake application. To Rossi it may seem as though MM slowed deliberately, but the telemetry may well show a different story.
Irrespective I suspect that RD would have compared Rossi post the crash and prior to the crash whilst looking at the same data of JL, DP to give an idea of what the readings ‘should/could’ have been and then allowing a tolerance.
That all said, riders feel things through the bars or bikes that sometimes do not appear on telemetry and so that is immeasurable should MM (as an example once again) have felt things
Only a few people will ever know the truth and we will all need to wait for the biographies to get their sides
Was the aggression one way?
I saw aggression from two sides and yet only one seems to be getting pasted for it.
If we are talking about cooler heads, then what about the wise old master of Rossi who when faced with a young guy desperate to get past him wouldn't remain calm, let him get out in front and wait for his time to attack later in the race.
Why does Marquez have to be the 'sensible' one whilst Rossi should be allowed to do as ever he pleases?
How anyone can accuse Marquez of being hot headed whilst turning a blind eye to Rossi's red mist is beyond me.
Joined Oct 2015
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I think Rossi wanted nothing more than to catch Lorenzo, that would've been more important to him than it was to Marc.
Well said Gaz. The two riders were trading places backwards and forwards (and damn entertaining it was) but somehow this is now portrayed as just one hot headed rider interfering when all Rossi wanted to do was race. They were racing.
The blinkered bias is astonishing.
This whining of Rossi that he might not attend are the actions of a petulant child and one that thinks if he continues shouting and denying people will (as many already are) believe him. It's like that song by Shaggy - It wasn't me, if you keep steadfastly denying it people will start to question themselves.
So what if he doesn't attend? I'm certain he'll be there but all the hollering and wailing is purely a melodramatic show to divert attention from his actions.
So what if he doesn't attend? I'm certain he'll be there but all the hollering and wailing is purely a melodramatic show to divert attention from his actions.
If he is racing legally for position, I ask you again how does his motive come into it?
What you are not allowed to do when racing for position is what Valentino did, ie change line drastically or slow down excessively to block the other rider.
If Pedrosa was Rossi's rival for the championship, MM would have raced exactly like he did (certainly Colin Edwards did when he was at Yamaha), and many expressed hopes before the race that MM would help Valentino in this race. Either he raced legally or he didn't. I think he has an obligation not to take Valentino out with an unfeasible move, but this unwritten rule that he can't affect the result of the championship seems to have arisen de novo at about the time of Valentino's press conference last Thursday.
I think it is self serving for Valentino and his fans to argue that riders other than Lorenzo should not be allowed to contest Valentino, particularly since his lead is substantially due to such riders including riders of Ducatis with an advantage under the current rules contesting Lorenzo fiercely and beating him, and can't see how not contesting Valentino is any less "race fixing" than contesting him, except that the latter is the essence and object of the sport.
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If that is the case, he shouldn't then simply expect another rider to get out of his way to let him carry out his plan. Marquez, like any other rider, has just as much right to fight for position. Unfortunately Rossi's status is now making him think that he is above these simple and basics parameters.
There is a difference between being frustrated when you are stuck behind a back marker and having to trade with a fellow combatant.
Well said. It's funny how we didn't hear cries of fixing when Marquez took the win and the extra 5 points off of Lorenzo at PI. Everyone was just enthralled by a great race.
Suddenly though Rossi decides that all of his problems are because of Marquez, despite himself losing points to Iannone at PI and we are suddenly then meant to be thinking that nobody but Jorge is allowed to challenge Valentino.
Rossi's sense of self entitlement and expectation of others to panders to his whims is out of control.
Joined Sep 2007
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Reading the thread and responding, rather than reading all then going back to respond. Sorry if this causes confusion
I said "Rossi was not suggesting that no-one other than WC contenders should be able to gain points at this stage in a championship, more that causing others still involved in the WC to gain/lose points by your actions is out of order. He defended Iannone against the Yellow Army (TM), don't forget"
I apologise if this was not as clear as I intended - I was/am saying that Rossi defended Ianonne so he was not averse to anyone racing for the most points achievable regardless of their position in the WC points. It was the suggestion that "messing" with one WC contender's race, in order to ensure that they cannot attack the other, that would be suspect.
It was most memorably done by Ferrari in F1 when team orders were banned, both one team member allowing another through, but also one baulking his team leaders closest rival(s) in order to allow the team leader to get away in a race. Not sure I've seen it done without there being some link, eg engine supplier, across teams, even in F1.
It was this that both Rossi (badly) and I (apparently not coherently
) were saying was unreasonable, not that it was unsupportable for a rider daring to race for the maximum placing he could achieve regardless of the current stage of the WC.
Joined Sep 2007
2K Posts | 60+
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Have you ever considered that, as Race Direction, Mike Webb would have had both riders telemetry data available to him? If this showed clearly that MM was not, for inxtance, opening the throttle cleanly when in front of VR, but was when behind him...
Clearly we cannot know what Mike Webb and his team saw within the telemetry data, but to state as FACT that it could only be due to mind reading is deliberately misleading.
