Now that Ducati has burned up all their tests

Jumkie · Oct 20, 2011

JohnnyKnockdown said:
The greatest motorsports in the world right now is....................................................................American Supercross. Last week at the Monster Energy cup they gave away 1 million dollars to the rider who could win all three heat races. Theres not a sport in the world right now outside of a pay per view event that can afford to do that.

Its not hard to see why. Much like GP they currently have a cast of characters that are hall of famers. The championship is up for grabs almost every year going into the last race. I compared their points system to GP last year. While a GP rider would have wrapped things up a few races before, SX keeps it close by rewarding consistency. Its not a perfect system but it breeds a great championship.

The bikes are by far the meanest gnarlyest beasts on the planet. Pure HP. Only the baddest dudes can ride these things to their potential, much like the 500's and 990's. No pansy ... corner speed midgets get a free pass in this series.

Merchandising is key. You go to a race you can buy a hat glove tampon, or whatever of any rider. You can buy AMA SX gear as well. GP, you can buy VR gear and some leftover has been ........ from the other riders.

Riders are accessible. You dont have to buy some $500 pass to maybe catch a glimpse of them. You pay a little extra, get a pit pass and you meet whoever you want

The show itself is amazing. You are entertained the whole time you are there. The monster ho's are quite possibly the finest girls Ive ever seen. EVERY YEAR

AMA doesnt .... with the formula and they cater to the fan. Quite the opposite to almost all the roadracing series

and American MotoCross!

Totally agree! They got both (SX/MX) series right!

Not to mention, the best riders in the world, bar none, are here. You can't go and say X guy from rival series is good but left because of power politics. Every year they have this open, its for anybody who thinks they are the best. You win, you get a serious take home prize. Isn't that why its called GRAND PRIX racing? Because the undisputed winner gets the big check and gets to bang the finest ..... at the event? I've said on this form many times before, they need an open to dispel all this ........ about who is the best. Put them all on identical Wsbk spec production motorcycles, rotate the brands every year, and make the prize money huge. Make it an open just like SX. Have a system of heats, no ........ provisional starts, you make it to the next round, you ride in the big dance. Winner takes home a truckload of cash and a few Monster chicks.

If we were talking the pinnacle of two-wheel racing, SX/MX trumps everybody. But at the moment, the pinnacle of "roadracing" is MotoGP. And may I add, the fact that we can even debate Wsbk as a rival series to GP should be a bit ominous me thinks.

Btw, click to enlarge.

13005:Monster ....jpg]

Edit: .... Reed.

birdman · Oct 20, 2011

Jumkie said:
and American MotoCross!

Totally agree! They got both (SX/MX) series right!

Not to mention, the best riders in the world, bar none, are here. You can't go and say X guy from rival series is good but left because of power politics. Every year they have this open, its for anybody who thinks they are the best. You win, you get a serious take home prize. Isn't that why its called GRAND PRIX racing? Because the undisputed winner gets the big check and gets to bang the finest ..... at the event? I've said on this form many times before, they need an open to dispel all this ........ about who is the best. Put them all on identical Wsbk spec production motorcycles, rotate the brands every year, and make the prize money huge. Make it an open just like SX. Have a system of heats, no ........ provisional starts, you make it to the next round, you ride in the big dance. Winner takes home a truckload of cash and a few Monster chicks.

If we were talking the pinnacle of two-wheel racing, SX/MX trumps everybody. But at the moment, the pinnacle of "roadracing" is MotoGP.

I agree, but have you got short memories? The history of SX/MX involves Dungey in 2010 almost, not to mention Stewart and Carmicheal actually winning every race in a season! Proof enough that no formula can garantee close racing all the time.

Go Chad Reed.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC4f9TCg4zw[/media]

Jumkie · Oct 20, 2011

birdman said:
I agree, but have you got short memories? The history of SX/MX involves Dungey in 2010 almost, not to mention Stewart and Carmicheal actually winning every race in a season! Proof enough that no formula can garantee close racing all the time.

Go Chad Reed.

Edited my post for accuracy above.

No short memory, those guys were true "aliens" of their sport, to use a term erroneous applied in GP. SX isn't like GP where the bike package matters for the greater part of the result. Those names would win on any bike any event.

birdman · Oct 20, 2011

Jumkie said:
Edited my post for accuracy above.

No short memory, those guys were true "aliens" of their sport, to use a term erroneous applied in GP. SX isn't like GP where the bike package matters for the greater part of the result. Those names would win on any bike any event.

haha edited my post too. Fly reed fly. .... the midget Villopoto.

Bike package. You said exactly what i was trying to figure out. Why SX ins't like GP. The problem in motogp is the two tier bike package system sucks. Very good, thats why I like you. Wanna hold hands and sing kumbaya? .... you, go Chad Reed.

JohnnyKnockdown · Oct 20, 2011

birdman said:
haha edited my post too. Fly reed fly. .... the midget Villopoto.

Bike package. You said exactly what i was trying to figure out. Why SX ins't like GP. The problem in motogp is the two tier bike package system sucks. Very good, thats why I like you. Wanna hold hands and sing kumbaya? .... you, go Chad Reed.

Whos got the short memory. Villo, Reed and Stewart spent most of 2010 injured.

Viva Villopoto.

F Reed

povol · Oct 20, 2011

xx CURVE xx said:
I wonder what tires and carbon brakes would do to those times.

Considering current GP tires have broken over half the track records set on Qualfiers from 2008, i would say tires and carbon brakes would do wonders for some.

povol · Oct 20, 2011

JohnnyKnockdown said:
Whos got the short memory. Villo, Reed and Stewart spent most of 2010 injured.

Viva Villopoto.

F Reed

Point is, the same guys on here singing the virtues of SX , can be heard bloviating about how GP sucks. That despite the fact that there is rarely a close finish in SX and its not uncommon for one rider to win 70 to 100% of the races. By the way, i love SX in spite of the boring racing

. SX is very viewer friendly, unlike roadracing, which might possibly be the most viewer unfriendly sport on the planet.

bluegreen · Oct 20, 2011

povol said:
Indy used to draw crowds that Nascar could only dream about, they gutted performance and the crowd dwindled. Nascar gutted performance at Talladega and Daytona, the crowd dwindled at those tracks, but remained steady for years at tracks where performance advanced. DMG gutted performance and the crowd disappeared. Nascar is now in decline because of its attempt to manufacture close championships. The racing by nature would always be close since it is a spec series and requires full course cautions, but. Nascar crossed a line with the the purist when they started trying to manufacture close championships with ' The Chase" and they are paying for it with lower attendance and viewership Trying to create false competition will cost them dearly when the next TV contract is negotiated. If race fans in Europe are more about being entertained by quirky personalities in chicken suits thats fine, its not what works in the US. If we are not important to GP, thats fine also, we have unlimited .... to attend and spend our money on. I will always watch any bike race that is on TV, but without hope of eye witnessing some sort of speed or track record, there is no reason for me to be there. I can save a thousand dollars and spend 1 hour of my life instead of 3 days. Cheap and simple baby.

???

IRL vs. CART fiasco ring a bell?

They split and crowds dwindled...

"The split between the IRL and the CART governing body was extremely acrimonious, and both series greatly suffered because of it. The rivalry between competing groups of fans was most active on the Internet, especially on motorsports message boards, and tended to affect any attempts at impartial views of either racing series."

Jumkie · Oct 20, 2011

povol said:
Point is, the same guys on here singing the virtues of SX , can be heard bloviating about how GP sucks. That despite the fact that there is rarely a close finish in SX and its not uncommon for one rider to win 70 to 100% of the races. By the way, i love SX in spite of the boring racing

. SX is very viewer friendly, unlike roadracing, which might possibly be the most viewer unfriendly sport on the planet.

Thats because you don't understand neither SX or GP. The bikes are all basically even in SX genius. Bike matters very little in the scheme of things where as in GP its everything. SX is not formula driven. You keep thinking the formula is some manna from heaven in GP, all perfect. Newsflash, there are many restriction in the formula that make the racing exactly how it is now, this is the thing you can't get through that thick head of yours. You keep banging on that you don't want contrived racing by changing the formula, WTF do you think happened from 990s to 800s? Yu simply can't understand this can you. But you continue to be wrong in this point and have failed to argue it successfully. THE FORMULA IS CONTRIVED! Its man made, and it happen to result in ...... racing to boot.

Now let me school you on SX/MX of which you know nothing. McGrath, Carmicheal, Steward changed bike manufactures and kept on winning in exactly the same dominant fashion. Why? Because bikes mean very little in that series. Its a talent dominated sport. Or are you now going to change your tune that in GP its about "prototype" engineering of the best mouse trap? You may begin backpedaling.

Stick to GP Pov, you barely know your ... there, you know .... all about SX/MX my friend.

povol · Oct 20, 2011

Jumkie said:
Thats because you don't understand neither SX or GP. The bikes are all basically even in SX genius. Bike matters very little in the scheme of things where as in GP its everything. SX is not formula driven. You keep thinking the formula is some manna from heaven in GP, all perfect. Newsflash, there are many restriction in the formula that make the racing exactly how it is now, this is the thing you can't get through that thick head of yours. You keep banging on that you don't want contrived racing by changing the formula, WTF do you think happened from 990s to 800s? Yu simply can't understand this can you. But you continue to be wrong in this point and have failed to argue it successfully. THE FORMULA IS CONTRIVED! Its man made, and it happen to result in ...... racing to boot.

Now let me school you on SX/MX of which you know nothing. McGrath, Carmicheal, Steward changed bike manufactures and kept on winning in exactly the same dominant fashion. Why? Because bikes mean very little in that series. Its a talent dominated sport. Or are you now going to change your tune that in GP its about "prototype" engineering of the best mouse trap? You may begin backpedaling.

Stick to GP Pov, you barely know your ... there, you know .... all about SX/MX my friend.

Oh, so if the bikes were even in GP and the racing still sucked, everything would be fine in your world. Let me fill you in, Rossi and Stoner both have won dominant championships on different makes in just the last decade, so whats your point.You are actually proving my point, that regardless the state of tune, the top riders will be the top riders and will most likely stink up the show. By the way, i was attending Motocross events before you were born

michaelm · Oct 20, 2011

Jumkie said:
Thats because you don't understand neither SX or GP. The bikes are all basically even in SX genius. Bike matters very little in the scheme of things where as in GP its everything. SX is not formula driven. You keep thinking the formula is some manna from heaven in GP, all perfect. Newsflash, there are many restriction in the formula that make the racing exactly how it is now, this is the thing you can't get through that thick head of yours. You keep banging on that you don't want contrived racing by changing the formula, WTF do you think happened from 990s to 800s? Yu simply can't understand this can you. But you continue to be wrong in this point and have failed to argue it successfully. THE FORMULA IS CONTRIVED! Its man made, and it happen to result in ...... racing to boot.

Now let me school you on SX/MX of which you know nothing. McGrath, Carmicheal, Steward changed bike manufactures and kept on winning in exactly the same dominant fashion. Why? Because bikes mean very little in that series. Its a talent dominated sport. Or are you now going to change your tune that in GP its about "prototype" engineering of the best mouse trap? You may begin backpedaling.

Stick to GP Pov, you barely know your ... there, you know .... all about SX/MX my friend.

Wasn't reed competitive this year on an entirely non-factory bike?

I think there are 2 different questions with motogp though; you can disapprove of the current formula but still think motogp should be about the best riders on the fastest/extreme bikes.

Jumkie · Oct 20, 2011

povol said:
Oh, so if the bikes were even in GP and the racing still sucked, everything would be fine in your world. Let me fill you in, Rossi and Stoner both have won dominant championships on different makes in just the last decade, so whats your point.You are actually proving my point, that regardless the state of tune, the top riders will be the top riders and will most likely stink up the show. By the way, i was attending Motocross events before you were born

You are dense. Stoner's dominant championships were years apart, from year to year you can see the bike mattered, even in the case of Stoner, though he was winning races he wasn't winning titles (and less races year to year). Using Rossi as your example, are you ....... kidding? Last year Rossi was winning and getting podiums before and after his injury, once he jumped on Ducati he'd been lucky to make the top 10. Would you like to start backpedaling now or just keep digging yourself in? What that again you are trying to say about the state of tune & package? You don't understand that the racing is a function of the formula (I'm repeating myself); a formula made by men in a discipline were it matters! If they were on spec bikes as you suggest and the racing wasn't close, we could all agree that its a talent differential, which is the case in SX/MX, hence its popularity (among other reasons). No ........ formula and disparity of bikes, the guy who win is the best mothafuker out there. Like I said, you're not gonna win this debate because you don't know .... about SX/MX (other than the names you here on the Speed report when your getting your Nascrap undates.) haha Top riders regardless of state of tune is SX/MX, and NOT GP, unless you are going to argue that given Rossi (one of your examples above) would suddenly suck if back on a Honda/Yamaha. He's sucked BECAUSE he hasn't got on with the state of tune of his curent bike.

Jumkie · Oct 20, 2011

michaelm said:
Wasn't reed competitive this year on an entirely non-factory bike? I think there are 2 different questions with motogp though; you can disapprove of the current formula but still think motogp should be about the best riders on the fastest/extreme bikes.

Yes, exactly my point. Hes a top rider regardless of the bike, because in SX/MX its almost all rider. The point of the GP debate Pov is trying to make and using another discipline he knows nothing about, is the idea of close racing, and more importantly, that we want to know who is the best period. In GP there are about 4-6 competitive bikes in the field, the rest are second tier which make a big difference. If you're not on one of them, you're ....... Look at Stoner, do you and I agree he is the fastest rider in the world and has been for a few years? (You and me, NOT you, me, and the world). Then how can we explain that he's been 3-4th in the year end classification? 2011 is a clue. I've read Pov make the point that GP is about engineering technology around a supremely built motorcycle, but he seems to forget that this engineering is based on a strict set of guidelines--called a formula. That formula results in a "typical" racing correlated directly to that formula, this is the connection that some have failed to make because they are desperate not to discredit X rider.

Mr Squiggle · Oct 20, 2011

Jumkie said:
Thats because you don't understand neither SX or GP. The bikes are all basically even in SX genius. Bike matters very little in the scheme of things where as in GP its everything. SX is not formula driven. You keep thinking the formula is some manna from heaven in GP, all perfect. Newsflash, there are many restriction in the formula that make the racing exactly how it is now, this is the thing you can't get through that thick head of yours. You keep banging on that you don't want contrived racing by changing the formula, WTF do you think happened from 990s to 800s? Yu simply can't understand this can you. But you continue to be wrong in this point and have failed to argue it successfully. THE FORMULA IS CONTRIVED! Its man made, and it happen to result in ...... racing to boot.

Now let me school you on SX/MX of which you know nothing. McGrath, Carmicheal, Steward changed bike manufactures and kept on winning in exactly the same dominant fashion. Why? Because bikes mean very little in that series. Its a talent dominated sport. Or are you now going to change your tune that in GP its about "prototype" engineering of the best mouse trap? You may begin backpedaling.

Stick to GP Pov, you barely know your ... there, you know .... all about SX/MX my friend.

You seem to be arguing with yourself as well as others on this forum when in fact we are trying to make basically the same point....what I and others have been saying from day one is basically this.....

1) Dont add new rules designed to "dumb down" the formula of this prototype series - rules such as these below fit into that criteria.....

A Spec tires

B Fuel limits

C Rev limits etc etc

They have all had unintended consequences and have done nothing to improve the show or bring about safer, closer racing.

Newsflash.....I agree and so does POV and we have always been against these rule changes.

You have been saying for months now the racing is "boring and processional"....hence why you wish to make rule changes in an attempt to correct what you percieve as "boring and processional" racing.

From memory you yourself have also suggested changing those rules above that I have outlined.......you also want to get rid of the electronics/TC rider aids.....again I agree with you...but here is the kicker.....some of these rule changes if implemented WONT produce closer racing like you want to see - in fact quite the opposite.....so we are actually arguing about nothing at all IMO.

But as we are all so stupid and ignorant and dont know what we are talking about perhaps you could school all of us with your infinite wisdom and knowledge. Please Jumkie enlighten us with your brilliant ideas about how to run MotoGP successfully and cure all of its current woes....I wait with bated breath

birdman · Oct 20, 2011

Hey Jumkie you listed all those great riders without the main one. Chad Reed.

Rossi on Ducati is a bad example.

What I hate the most about the current motogp situation is private teams have absolutely no chance of winning a race regardless of who is riding, Stoner included. So whats the point of being there? There needs to be either everyone on a factory bike, or rules to ensure parity for riders on the same make. If the cost is too high to do this then they need to get the cost down.

Regarding Ducati and Rossi ....... themselves up thats different. They dug their own hole and its up to them, not the rule makers to get themselves out of it. Others like say Aoyama got pushed in a hole someone else dug with no way out. I think what Pov is eluding to is rules that attempt to ensure parity between makes, no matter how good or useless (Ducati) they are. This requires a really dumbed down formula. I would rather not see that, a crap design should be punished, but still its better than a grid of 9 bikes.

povol · Oct 21, 2011

Mr Squiggle said:
You seem to be arguing with yourself as well as others on this forum when in fact we are trying to make basically the same point....what I and others have been saying from day one is basically this.....

1) Dont add new rules designed to "dumb down" the formula of this prototype series - rules such as these below fit into that criteria.....

A Spec tires

B Fuel limits

C Rev limits etc etc

They have all had unintended consequences and have done nothing to improve the show or bring about safer, closer racing.

Newsflash.....I agree and so does POV and we have always been against these rule changes.

You have been saying for months now the racing is "boring and processional"....hence why you wish to make rule changes in an attempt to correct what you percieve as "boring and processional" racing.

From memory you yourself have also suggested changing those rules above that I have outlined.......you also want to get rid of the electronics/TC rider aids.....again I agree with you...but here is the kicker.....some of these rule changes if implemented WONT produce closer racing like you want to see - in fact quite the opposite.....so we are actually arguing about nothing at all IMO.

But as we are all so stupid and ignorant and dont know what we are talking about perhaps you could school all of us with your infinite wisdom and knowledge. Please Jumkie enlighten us with your brilliant ideas about how to run MotoGP successfully and cure all of its current woes....I wait with bated breath

He is a lonely drunk sometimes.

hawkdriver · Oct 21, 2011

It still won't be good enough, we already know the new 1000s will be faster than the 800s. You have to remember gp is already watered down with the fuel regs. The 20lb difference is huge in corner speed. The gp weight limit could also be lower but the Japanese don't want that. The CRT bikes getting more fuel is gonna go a long way. The factory bikes are not being slowed down, the CRT bikes are being given a chance to catch up. At the end of season testing we'll see how close the bikes are. We've seen how hard it is to make up 3 tenets in gp and you honestly think the sbks could hang being more than a second off the pace.

povol said:
Considering current GP tires have broken over half the track records set on Qualfiers from 2008, i would say tires and carbon brakes would do wonders for some.

povol · Oct 21, 2011

hawkdriver said:
It still won't be good enough, we already know the new 1000s will be faster than the 800s. You have to remember gp is already watered down with the fuel regs. The 20lb difference is huge in corner speed. The gp weight limit could also be lower but the Japanese don't want that. The CRT bikes getting more fuel is gonna go a long way. The factory bikes are not being slowed down, the CRT bikes are being given a chance to catch up. At the end of season testing we'll see how close the bikes are. We've seen how hard it is to make up 3 tenets in gp and you honestly think the sbks could hang being more than a second off the pace.

I didnt say it would make them their equal, i said it would do wonders. And yes 20 pounds is an enormous difference, and yes, those last 3-4 tenths are always the hardest to find. Gp needs to be significantly faster than WSBK or you cant justify the money difference Noyes says he is not convinced the 1000's will be faster than the 800's in race trim, simply because of the fuel limitations. He says sure, in a few test laps, where fuel isnt an issue they would be faster, but come raceday, simple math says the larger engine will have to be cut back even more to complete the race.

Nuts · Oct 21, 2011

hawkdriver said:
http://moto-racing.s...a-crt-pt-iii/P3

Misano

Fastest Lap MotoGP: 1.33.906 (Lorenzo, Yamaha M1)

Fastest Lap SBK: 1.36.344 (Biaggi, Aprilia RVS4)

Difference 2.438seconds

Assen

Fastest Lap MotoGP: 1,35.240 (Spies, Yamaha M1)

Fastest Lap SBK: 1.36.476 (Rea, Honda CBR1000RR)

Difference 1.236

Brno

Fastest lap MotoGP: 1'57.191 (Stoner, Honda)

Fastest lap SBK: 2.00.058 (Biaggi, Aprilia RSV4)

Difference 2.867

PI

Fastest lap MotoGP: 1.30.629 (Stoner, Honda)

Fastest lap SBK: 1.32.012 (Biaggi, Aprilia RSV4)

Difference 1.383 seconds

Just occurred to me.

If this is the case, why don't Ducati just roll out a 1198R WSBK with a Desmo GP engine, and carbon brakes.

Bolt on the latest electronics and BS tyres.

Surely that thing would be closer to the front than the current GP 11.1.46.shitbox.

Jumkie · Oct 21, 2011

Mr Squiggle said:
You seem to be arguing with yourself as well as others on this forum when in fact we are trying to make basically the same point....what I and others have been saying from day one is basically this.....

1) Dont add new rules designed to "dumb down" the formula of this prototype series - rules such as these below fit into that criteria.....

A Spec tires

B Fuel limits

C Rev limits etc etc

They have all had unintended consequences and have done nothing to improve the show or bring about safer, closer racing.

Newsflash.....I agree and so does POV and we have always been against these rule changes.

You have been saying for months now the racing is "boring and processional"....hence why you wish to make rule changes in an attempt to correct what you percieve as "boring and processional" racing.

From memory you yourself have also suggested changing those rules above that I have outlined.......you also want to get rid of the electronics/TC rider aids.....again I agree with you...but here is the kicker.....some of these rule changes if implemented WONT produce closer racing like you want to see - in fact quite the opposite.....so we are actually arguing about nothing at all IMO.

But as we are all so stupid and ignorant and dont know what we are talking about perhaps you could school all of us with your infinite wisdom and knowledge. Please Jumkie enlighten us with your brilliant ideas about how to run MotoGP successfully and cure all of its current woes....I wait with bated breath

hahaha, you're too funny dude. You were a much better poster when your boy was struggling, but now you're full of .... and have gotten worse. You are the first casualty of Stoner's success turned Bopperesk--characterized by delusion and an inability to follow an argument. You are now suddenly on board? ......... That's why we had a long debate previously, the one were you got so frustrated and said you would ignore me (the effect of losing a debate) now you want to say you really just agreed with me all along? That's a new twist on backpedaling. You are losing it buddy. Well if that's the new way you want to suddenly agree with me and say I was right, I'll accept it.

Now that Ducati has burned up all their tests

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