Now that Ducati has burned up all their tests

birdman · Oct 19, 2011

Kropotkin said:
That's fine. You matter to the sport as little as I do. If you leave and a thousand join, then the series benefits. If you stay but a thousand leave, the series dies. We have to pay for this somehow.

If you want to argue down these lines then the only conclusion is to implement horse race style handicapping. Simply cutting costs doesnt prevent runaway winners. Damn sneaky cheating teams and athletes always tend to find some sort of winning advantage. Last time this was happening with Bayliss winning too much on the Duc they (SBK) actually used weight handicapping, so why not motogp? But then why even have a real competition. Why not just have a fully manufactured, highly entertaining close racing fake one?

What matters most to me is that the best riders in the world always have and hopefully continue to migrate towards motogp as the pinacle of racing. I assume thats what all these posts are about. If not then where's the moto2 forum, it should be jammed packed what with all the close entertaining racing going on?

BarryMachine · Oct 20, 2011

birdman said:
If not then where's the moto2 forum, it should be jammed packed what with all the close entertaining racing going on?

Kropotkin · Oct 20, 2011

birdman said:
What matters most to me is that the best riders in the world always have and hopefully continue to migrate towards motogp as the pinacle of racing. I assume thats what all these posts are about. If not then where's the moto2 forum, it should be jammed packed what with all the close entertaining racing going on?

MotoGP will always be the pinnacle, no matter what they do to the bikes. Look at F1, they are rapidly becoming about as sophisticated as NASCAR, but it's still the top series. The level of technology is irrelevant: the pinnacle is where the mass of people and riders believe the pinnacle to be.

spooky · Oct 20, 2011

In regards to Kato's death, was that not more to do with track safety than the bike itself? I mean, we havent been back to Suzuka since have we? Just a thought...

Either way, the 800's have been on average more dangerous than the 990's ever were. Look at Caseys rookie year in Moto-gp compared to Jorges, they crashed just as much but the severity of Jorge crashes were much, much worse. Bikes or tyres?

BarryMachine · Oct 20, 2011

spooky said:
In regards to Kato's death, was that not more to do with track safety than the bike itself? I mean, we havent been back to Suzuka since have we? Just a thought...

Either way, the 800's have been on average more dangerous than the 990's ever were. Look at Caseys rookie year in Moto-gp compared to Jorges, they crashed just as much but the severity of Jorge crashes were much, much worse. Bikes or tyres?

Where's the stat.s/evidence showing this? ......... even after you go on to state that Kato died on a 990 ..........

Are there stat's showing less crashes? Less injury ? We know deaths are higher for the 990's ( and lets hope it doesn't happen any more regardless of capacity)

spooky · Oct 20, 2011

BarryMachine said:
Where's the stat.s/evidence showing this? ......... even after you go on to state that Kato died on a 990 ..........

Are there stat's showing less crashes? Less injury ? We know deaths are higher for the 990's ( and lets hope it doesn't happen any more regardless of capacity)

Read the first part of my post, was his death more to do with the track or the bike he was riding? His death was tragic, but i dont think the bike can take all the blame - everyone commented on the track being dangerous.

I dont have stats, just going by memory. More riders have missed races due to injury whilst riding the 800 bikes, thats for sure. Its widely recognised as well, remove the blinkers Barry

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/motogp-to-return-to-1000cc-formula/

BarryMachine · Oct 20, 2011

spooky said:
Read the first part of my post, was his death more to do with the track or the bike he was riding? His death was tragic, but i dont think the bike can take all the blame - everyone commented on the track being dangerous.

I dont have stats, just going by memory. More riders have missed races due to injury whilst riding the 800 bikes, thats for sure. Its widely recognised as well, remove the blinkers Barry

http://www.asphaltan...1000cc-formula/

Well I think you should try and back your theory/hypothesis up with some stat.s

Because if I went off memory (And the purple squares on the wiki tables of rounds and placings

compare say 03, 04, 05, 06 with say 07, 08, 09, 10 ), I'd say its a lot safer on the 800's. But not having any real stat's I don't push the point. I most certainly would not come up with such fairytale statements as " Either way, the 800's have been on average more dangerous than the 990's ever were" and then try and provide some excuse to not include Kato's death in the 990 era

Total fairytale/lies/concoction/........

spooky · Oct 20, 2011

BarryMachine said:
Well I think you should try and back your theory/hypothesis up with some stat.s

Because if I went off memory, I'd say its a lot safer on the 800's. But not having any real stat's I don't push the point. I most certainly would not come up with such fairytale statements as " Either way, the 800's have been on average more dangerous than the 990's ever were" and then try and provide some excuse to not include Kato's death in the 990 era

Total fairytale/lies/concoction/........

Keep rolling those eyes Barry, Tomi died on a 600cc bike and there aint no rule changes going on there, are there? I aint pushing the point, i'm just voicing my opinion... You're entitled to your opinion mate but i think you'd be the only person who really thought the 800's were safer. If it wasnt for all the safe tracks in the series these days the stats may read completely different!

Infact, read this....your boy Stoner knows something you dont know!

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/174166/1/800cc_king_stoner_ill_enjoy_1000cc_more.html

Do you like apples?

BarryMachine · Oct 20, 2011

spooky said:
Keep rolling those eyes Barry, Tomi died on a 600cc bike and there aint no rule changes going on there, are there? I aint pushing the point, i'm just voicing my opinion... You're entitled to your opinion mate but i think you'd be the only person who really thought the 800's were safer. If it wasnt for all the safe tracks in the series these days the stats may read completely different!

Infact, read this....your boy Stoner knows something you dont know!

http://www.crash.net...000cc_more.html

Do you like apples?

Where does Stoner say the 990's are safer?

BarryMachine · Oct 20, 2011

No? ...... Well I do like those apples!!!

You goose

The fairytales just get worse with you guys ............

spooky · Oct 20, 2011

right here, you goon!

"Definitely not! I was confused as to why we went to 800s, after the 1000s [990s]. The word came out it was because of safety seasons. The 1000s being too fast. I think everyone knows the statistics now, the 800s arrived in walls more times than 1000s did."

birdman · Oct 20, 2011

Kropotkin said:
MotoGP will always be the pinnacle, no matter what they do to the bikes. Look at F1, they are rapidly becoming about as sophisticated as NASCAR, but it's still the top series. The level of technology is irrelevant: the pinnacle is where the mass of people and riders believe the pinnacle to be.

The way I see it SBK is already fast enough to be motogp, to actually be the pinnacle. Certainly top speed wise SBK is plenty fast enough. So that leaves little room for motogp to move. All they can really do is develop corner speed. Which is much different to F1 vs NASCAR. F1 has plenty room to move.

Its not about outright tech its about speed and lap times. Who wants to be motogp W/C if the lap is actually slower than SBK?

SBK 2010 Brno fastest lap = 1'59.291

Motogp 2010 Brno fastest lap = 1'57.524

Whats the CRT suter lap time - 5 seconds slower?

CRT is suposed to be the answer. But its slower than SBK. Now you see the problem?

Kropotkin · Oct 20, 2011

birdman said:
The way I see it SBK is already fast enough to be motogp, to actually be the pinnacle. Certainly top speed wise SBK is plenty fast enough. So that leaves little room for motogp to move. All they can really do is develop corner speed. Which is much different to F1 vs NASCAR. F1 has plenty room to move.

Its not about outright tech its about speed and lap times. Who wants to be motogp W/C if the lap is actually slower than SBK?

SBK 2010 Brno fastest lap = 1'59.291

Motogp 2010 Brno fastest lap = 1'57.524

Whats the CRT suter lap time - 5 seconds slower?

CRT is suposed to be the answer. But its slower than SBK. Now you see the problem?

Yes, SBK is nearly as fast as MotoGP, and faster than the CRT. Yet Johnny Rea is desperately disappointed not to be racing in MotoGP. Toni Elias is trying everything to stay in MotoGP and not have to move to WSBK.

Lap times are irrelevant, the only thing that counts is perception, and MotoGP is perceived as being the pinnacle. So all of the best riders, and even the factories, want to stay in MotoGP, because that's the best of the best. They could be riding round on Vespas, and it would still be the pinnacle. That may not be the truth when measured along objective lines such as lap times and top speed. But it is the subjective truth made apparent that any motorcycle racer in any series would willingly give up at least one testicle to be in MotoGP.

As for the fans, they want to watch Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo race on cool-looking bikes. They don't really care how many analog inputs the ECU has, or what the Young's modulus is of the material that makes up the conrods. If the best riders in the world are in the series, then that is the pinnacle, and as long as the best riders in the world are in MotoGP, then that is the series that all of the other riders (except for a few cowards like Fogarty and Mladin) want to race in.

I completely understand your point. But I contend that your point is irrelevant to the vast majority of fans.

Kropotkin · Oct 20, 2011

spooky said:
right here, you goon!

"Definitely not! I was confused as to why we went to 800s, after the 1000s [990s]. The word came out it was because of safety seasons. The 1000s being too fast. I think everyone knows the statistics now, the 800s arrived in walls more times than 1000s did."

I have heard Stoner say at least 10 times that the 990s were safer. If you look at the crash statistics (which Dorna, being the fuckwits that they are, do not make available online) then there are more crashes on the 800s than there were on the 990s.

BarryMachine · Oct 20, 2011

Kropotkin said:
I have heard Stoner say at least 10 times that the 990s were safer. If you look at the crash statistics (which Dorna, being the fuckwits that they are, do not make available online) then there are more crashes on the 800s than there were on the 990s.

Then where are they? Are we to read the "RET" in result records as crashes? ....... cos if thats the case, there seem to be more "RET"'s in the tables for the 990's ........ or are they all just breakdowns?

Kropotkin · Oct 20, 2011

BarryMachine said:
Then where are they? Are we to read the "RET" in result records as crashes? ....... cos if thats the case, there seem to be more "RET"'s in the tables for the 990's ........ or are they all just breakdowns?

Two things:

1. There were far more bikes on the grid, hence more RETs

2. People crash during practice as well. And usually, that's when they get hurt. Those statistics don't show up.

birdman · Oct 20, 2011

Kropotkin said:
Yes, SBK is nearly as fast as MotoGP, and faster than the CRT. Yet Johnny Rea is desperately disappointed not to be racing in MotoGP. Toni Elias is trying everything to stay in MotoGP and not have to move to WSBK.

Lap times are irrelevant, the only thing that counts is perception, and MotoGP is perceived as being the pinnacle. So all of the best riders, and even the factories, want to stay in MotoGP, because that's the best of the best. They could be riding round on Vespas, and it would still be the pinnacle. That may not be the truth when measured along objective lines such as lap times and top speed. But it is the subjective truth made apparent that any motorcycle racer in any series would willingly give up at least one testicle to be in MotoGP.

As for the fans, they want to watch Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo race on cool-looking bikes. They don't really care how many analog inputs the ECU has, or what the Young's modulus is of the material that makes up the conrods. If the best riders in the world are in the series, then that is the pinnacle, and as long as the best riders in the world are in MotoGP, then that is the series that all of the other riders (except for a few cowards like Fogarty and Mladin) want to race in.

I completely understand your point. But I contend that your point is irrelevant to the vast majority of fans.

Yes but what would happen in the future if say Biaggi got a look at his comparitive times and noticed he was faster than Rossi in motogp? So Biaggi holds the outright lap record then. You think Biaggi would sit quitely in the garage? No way, he would soon be jumping up and down claiming to be the fastest rider in the world.

We already have these motogp vs SBK challenges and discussions, Rossi supposedly wanting to ride a round of SBK? Imagine if SBK was faster. What happens then. Maybe Rea is no longer in such a hurry to move.

I noticed something else. Supersport times at Brno were better than moto2. So what? So I can go buy a 600 for $15k, do it up a bit, buy some Pirelli's and go run a moto2 race and win! Yippee. Where's my helmet? Damn its broken from when I crashed the 800 haha. Sorry bad humour.

Seriously I see a potential problem coming in the near future when production bikes actually become faster than purpose built but dumbed downed entertainment based race bikes.

hawkdriver · Oct 20, 2011

It's gonna take some time but the CRT bikes will be faster than wsbks, just look at moto 2, slow the first year but look at them now. The rules of GP will give you a faster bike, 20 lbs lighter than sbk, more hp, and better brakes. Don't worry they'll figure it out just like the did in moto2 and don't be surprised if sbk gets brought back down to earth.

birdman said:
The way I see it SBK is already fast enough to be motogp, to actually be the pinnacle. Certainly top speed wise SBK is plenty fast enough. So that leaves little room for motogp to move. All they can really do is develop corner speed. Which is much different to F1 vs NASCAR. F1 has plenty room to move.

Its not about outright tech its about speed and lap times. Who wants to be motogp W/C if the lap is actually slower than SBK?

SBK 2010 Brno fastest lap = 1'59.291

Motogp 2010 Brno fastest lap = 1'57.524

Whats the CRT suter lap time - 5 seconds slower?

CRT is suposed to be the answer. But its slower than SBK. Now you see the problem?

Kropotkin · Oct 20, 2011

birdman said:
I noticed something else. Supersport times at Brno were better than moto2.

Yet Supersport riders would give their left testicle to be racing in Moto2. That's the point.

BarryMachine · Oct 20, 2011

Kropotkin said:
Two things:

1. There were far more bikes on the grid, hence more RETs

2. People crash during practice as well. And usually, that's when they get hurt. Those statistics don't show up.

Cut off the bottom riders in the 990 tables and test you theory ........ not so sure its just more numbers. ( Note: I am even being fair by saying cut off the bottom rider ....... cos looking at the records ........ they were shockers!!

)

2. Yes they do ....... but were's all these stats showing that 800's were worse for it?

Now that Ducati has burned up all their tests

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