Now that Ducati has burned up all their tests

spooky said:

Surely theres got to be some kind of middle ground though, the way Moto-gp is at the moment means lots of would be potential manufacturers hoping to compete in the top level are effectively priced out the game....Kawasaki being 1 and potentially Suzuki being the other. It shouldnt just be about whoever has the deepest pockets, the series is ...... for that reason alone.

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Kawasaki, or KHI can afford to go GP racing, as can Suzuki. Neither have ever taken it seriously and im assuming its because they never saw a benefit from it. Kawasaki has always been about having the fastest production motorcycle built, with quarter mile times as their bragging right. Example is the 2012 ZX14. In this economy, they redid the bike and it now has 90 more cc's and will undoubtedly be the king of production speed. They dabbled in road racing, winning national level championships every once in a while, but never really committed to it.

Jumkie said:

Pov, you seem obsessed with wanting the factorie(s) to spend unsustainable amounts of money. According to you, this would make you stop watching if the series was more cost effective (or the label you've assigned "dumbed down".) If they wanted to, they could spend twice as much as they are spending now. So perhaps by your standard of more is more, you are already watching less. Just about any material being used now can be traded for a more expensive material costing much much more. I remember you making the same argument with the AMA, though I think you're still watching. This is a challenge of engineering and rider within parameters, do you understand this? Its the parameters that are a function of what is developed. You think sky is the limit, but its not. Otherwise there wouldn't be all these restrictions. They would simply say, build something with two wheels and race it, spend all you want.

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Im still watching, but i have quit going. From 4-5 races a year to zero. I will watch a ....... wheelbarrow race, i will not pay to go see it.

povol said:

Thats all fine and good if you want another Superbike series. I personally would lose interest. GP is not meant to be cheap and simple. If GP cannot considerably differentiate itself performance wise from numerous other racing series, what is the use in having it all. As it stands, there is zero doubt which i would pick to spend my money on, if given the choice of attending only one race a year. Make it cheap and simple, and my decision on which race to attend will be cheap and simple.

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That's fine. You matter to the sport as little as I do. If you leave and a thousand join, then the series benefits. If you stay but a thousand leave, the series dies. We have to pay for this somehow.

povol said:

Im still watching, but i have quit going. From 4-5 races a year to zero. I will watch a ....... wheelbarrow race, i will not pay to go see it.

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You have very high standards. I'm sure this applies to the thread count in your sheets as well. How much should they spend on the bikes before you go back to watching i mean, attending?

Kropotkin said:

That's fine. You matter to the sport as little as I do. If you leave and a thousand join, then the series benefits. If you stay but a thousand leave, the series dies. We have to pay for this somehow.

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Well, the good news is Pov will still be "watching" just not "attending". Which if my calculations are correct, the series makes more from the viewership rather than the attendees.



Though may I add, I think you matter a bit more than Pov or me to the sport.



Not sure where and when to ask this of you (as I hardly see you post on the Wsbk threads), but can you answer a small curiosity I have; Wsbk is scheduled to race in Moscow next year, is that circuit on schedule to host races? Sorry off topic (well not quite if you consider that we are talking sustaining cost of the motorcycle racing and the markets that may emerge are one way of helping with this issue).

povol said:

Kawasaki, or KHI can afford to go GP racing, as can Suzuki. Neither have ever taken it seriously and im assuming its because they never saw a benefit from it.

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Ergo, they can't afford to go GP racing.



Here's an old economists' joke:



Two economists were walking down the street, on their way to a bar for lunch. As they are walking along, they pass a Ferrari parked at the side of the road. The first economist turns to the second and says "I always wanted to own a Ferrari!" To which the second economist replies "No you don't."

Jumkie said:

Well, the good news is Pov will still be "watching" just not "attending". Which if my calculations are correct, the series makes more from the viewership rather than the attendees.

Though may I add, I think you matter a bit more than Pov or me to the sport.



Not sure where and when to ask this of you (as I hardly see you post on the Wsbk threads), but can you answer a small curiosity I have; Wsbk is scheduled to race in Moscow next year, is that circuit on schedule to host races? Sorry off topic (well not quite if you consider that we are talking sustaining cost of the motorcycle racing and the markets that may emerge are one way of helping with this issue).

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MotoGP is not going to Russia. Dorna has much more sense than Infront, and knows to stay away from political minefields. Russia is massively corrupt and there are going to be a shitload of problems down the road going to Russia.



However, emerging markets are key. I heard from on team looking for sponsors that the talks go really well, right up until the moment that the potential sponsors ask whether the series goes to China, or India, or Brazil. When the answer "no" comes back, the meeting ends very abruptly indeed.

Just wait till the 'rolling rulebook' (ie= crapcar) starts next year.

BHarvey said:

Just wait till the 'rolling rulebook' (ie= crapcar) starts next year.

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I've mentioned this before and seems like nobody knows what it means or it's too awful an idea to even discuss.

It's existence is BTW - AFAIK - not a foregone conclusion, but it's a definite possibility.

Kropotkin said:

That's fine. You matter to the sport as little as I do. If you leave and a thousand join, then the series benefits. If you stay but a thousand leave, the series dies. We have to pay for this somehow.

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I know the crowd may be a little different from the old AMA crowds, but not much. I travel to GP races with the same crowd as i used to travel to AMA, and see a lot of the same people at GP that i saw at AMA.. What if 10's of thousands leave, and no one new shows up. I didnt see that scenario in the picture you painted. Dont think it cant happen.It did to AMA when they turned a Superbike series into glorified club racing for the sake of the show. TV money may be where its at for Dorna, but 50% less attendance will kill the show as well. Ask DMG if you dont believe me.

povol said:

I know the crowd may be a little different from the old AMA crowds, but not much. I travel to GP races with the same crowd as i used to travel to AMA, and see a lot of the same people at GP that i saw at AMA.. What if 10's of thousands leave, and no one new shows up. I didnt see that scenario in the picture you painted. Dont think it cant happen.It did to AMA when they turned a Superbike series into glorified club racing for the sake of the show. TV money may be where its at for Dorna, but 50% less attendance will kill the show as well. Ask DMG if you dont believe me.

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We are not talking about minority markets like the USA, we are talking about the core of MotoGP audiences: Southern Europe and the Far East. There, MotoGP is regarded as a real sport, by people who don't give a .... about motorcycles. The AMA is a terrible example, because its fan base is entirely hardcore motorcyclists, and so any tampering with the ethos of technological purity is regarded with disdain. Out in Spain and Italy, they want to see entertaining racing and big stars, and they're not fussed about the bleeding edge.

Kropotkin said:

That's fine. You matter to the sport as little as I do. If you leave and a thousand join, then the series benefits. If you stay but a thousand leave, the series dies. We have to pay for this somehow.

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Thanks for your input Krop, this is actually quite a good debate bar one or two of the usually ridiculous Boners.



Personally, I would like to see the manufactures compete as in the days of old moreso than the CRT option. I simple lifting of the Honda restrictions, and an additional tyre supplier or two would no doubt encourage Kawasaki and Suzuki to properly rejoin, and also give Ducati a chance to implement the designs properly and not build a Japanese bike to compete.



We also have both Aprilia and BMW on the sidelines waiting for such a change.



I'm curious as to the attitude in the paddock towards Honda and the championship, is it one of praise or more like a begrudging of their influence to the legislating/purchasing of the title?



The most obvious, and cheapest change would be to out Bridgestone, and bring back Michelin or Dunlop. As you say using the tyres to control the pace would be the most effective solution. No doubt a big part of winning in this current formula, with the fuel restriction is ensuring that the bike's performance lasts because the tyres do not go off, this is against the philosophy of racing and endurance/rider skill. Bridgestone have over-engineered their rubber, and now are providing pathetic options which are the deciding factor for success or failure in Motogp.



A simple and effective change in compounds to ensure that the tyres suffer over race distance, coupled with a lifting of the fuel limit will;



a) slow the pace - keep the safety folks happy

take the engineers focus off making the bike last (fuel wise) until the end of the race with max power-less electronics/more rider skill

c) create potential variables in race results- which we do not have at present



IMO The combination of all of these factors will reduce cost, and provides the best shot at improving the spectacle to how it use to be and in-turn bring the dollars back. I would love nothing more than to see a Satellite team win a race......nowadays we don't even factor them into the top 5.



These restrictions have created the Casey Stoner's, Dani Pedrosa's and Jorge Lorenzo's of the world. One strategy is the option for these guys, go out, flat out and let the bike do the rest, and the tyres won't go off.....the strategic Human element is missing, that is why people are turning away, that is why other manufacturer's do not want to join. Much like F1 a few years back, the powers that be are underestimating their audience, of course the fans know what is going on.....this is why the passion is diminishing......I hope they can fix it......though for me this is fading too.

..

Kato died, Honda felt responsible. If you were the CEO of Honda with the blood of Kato on your hands, how would you feel? He was their favourite son at the time. So they tried to do something about it. They all agreed, 800cc fuel limited bikes would be slower thus safer. Even though it didnt work, I find the original intention to be genuinely honourable. I would be surprised if Honda used the death of a person to further their own secret, alteria motive, but maybe I'm just naive?



Its easy in hindsight to say Honda ...... the whole thing up. Anyone seriously think Honda are sitting there thinking how can we totally .... up motogp? I just think they made a few mistakes, but overall it will work out in due time. People are too impatient. In short time we had a rider die, followed by a GFC, then a tsunami. All serious, life changing, devasting events and all people can say is im bored or this is all Hondas fault.

birdman said:

Kato died, Honda felt responsible. If you were the CEO of Honda with the blood of Kato on your hands, how would you feel? He was their favourite son at the time. So they tried to do something about it. They all agreed, 800cc fuel limited bikes would be slower thus safer. Even though it didnt work, I find the original intention to be genuinely honourable. I would be surprised if Honda used the death of a person to further their own secret, alteria motive, but maybe I'm just naive?



Its easy in hindsight to say Honda ...... the whole thing up. Anyone seriously think Honda are sitting there thinking how can we totally .... up motogp? I just think they made a few mistakes, but overall it will work out in due time. People are too impatient. In short time we had a rider die, followed by a GFC, then a tsunami. All serious, life changing, devasting events and all people can say is im bored or this is all Hondas fault.

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Rational post Bird.

Interesting debate.

povol said:

Thats all fine and good if you want another Superbike series. I personally would lose interest. GP is not meant to be cheap and simple. If GP cannot considerably differentiate itself performance wise from numerous other racing series, what is the use in having it all. As it stands, there is zero doubt which i would pick to spend my money on, if given the choice of attending only one race a year. Make it cheap and simple, and my decision on which race to attend will be cheap and simple.

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I would love to dig up some of the old threads, but even a bored cripple like me has a limit, but we have discussed this ad nauseum, you are so right, as soon as motogp slips back into the clutches of WSBK at the level of lap times, motogp will be redundant and pointless.



If staying ahead of the pack mean relaxing some testing in the transitional period, then all well and good. If it were any other rider apart from Rossi or Stoner asking for the relaxation then there would be little fuss and I think logically we would be all supporting an extension to testing limits.



After all they test rider safety when they test a bike and too many crashes makes the grid look silly like it did at Phillip Island last week.



Motogp isn't going to make itself more economically viable by limiting testing and whoever sold us that argument was slick and clever. Perhaps they should look at increasing profits instead of reducing costs, or reducing costs without impacting on the bikes.

Jumkie said:

Ducati also said they would like to work with Michelin when Dorna proposed the single tire suppliers. You remember, when Stoner's victory was chalked up to Bridgestone (among other things), then Rossi demanded Bridgestones, then Bridgestone said, "go .... yourself", then Dorna said, Michelins are looking pretty good to be a single tire supplier, then Bridgestone gave Rossi tires, then Dorna said, Bridgestones are looking pretty good to be a single tire supplier, then Ducati said, Michelins are looking pretty good, then Dorna said, "go .... yourself". You remember?

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This is why I secretly harbour animosity against Dani Pedrosa. I should correct my first sentence because I don't think it is a secret. After Rossi got the tyres it was Dani who jumped up and down (when midgets do this it is very funny, there should be lots of YouTube clips of jumping midgets) The Repsol Honda team got us the single tyre rule care of Puig and his politics.



Right now and for the sake of racing it wouldn't hurt to see Ducati with a different tyre building a bike around that tyre again like they did with the then unwanted uncompetitive Bridgestones. As much as Rossi ..... me it would be good to see him at the pointy end again, as I stated once Jorge and Spies fell off the grid there was little left to entertain us at Phillip Island.



Dani and Puig (after the big sook from Rossi) put all our eggs in one basket.







,

BarryMachine said:

As an engineer, I can say ........ take away one "thing" to design for ........ and "another" becomes the new "thing" of most import.

Suggesting that manufacturers would suddenly decide to not engineer for reliability ...... I doubt it. How was it in 06? No development for reliability was occurring?

I think you are speculating to the point of paranoid "dreaming" if you really think they will suddenly spend less money, by somehow having nothing to develop .

You don't think that should the fuel limit be lifted suddenly a tad more development seeking power and better engine management would occur? Lets face it luckily at least Honda, Yamaha and Ducati seem to be in it to win it.



How anyone can suggest that, say Honda, would now sink less money into supposedly more bikes, of less development, on the grid ( still competing with Yamaha ) is beyond me

Lets say they did that for a year, and Yamaha won ......... what do you think would happen next year? If it was Suzuki, who has been going on the cheap, maybe they would pull out completely? But I would suggest that "evil company Honda", in their present state of mind, would sink more money into whooping Yamaha's arse. So the "next year" suddenly we might find money is being spent again on a few selected bikes again.

Once forced to go "many bikes at a lesser price", even Honda and Yamaha may be pushed over the brink of what they are willing to afford.

To all those crying wolf at Honda, just think ......... they could decide to get like Suzuki ....... then Kawasaki .........

AT present Yamaha and Honda , and somehow Ducati, are willing to spend their money to win. Take that away and what will you have? Back to the 50's style is what I think. Perhaps it will end up a few major players who will attend all rounds but many "locals" may compete in the local GP, not really having a chance to take it out but filling wildcard spaces.



In the end if a manufacturer sees benefit in winning the series they will sink money into it.



All that matters is "how deep are the pockets". And in hard economic times the pockets may seem shallower.



CRT may seem a way of getting more bikes on the grid, if thats what is really wanted, but its all going closer backwards to the "blokes turning up in a van with the bike in the back" days.



I don't believe there is any real problem at all in MGP. The same thing happened for many Doohan fans when he retired ....... suddenly it seemed boring and they went elsewhere.





If the impetus is really to save money then perhaps a cap on the amount a company may spend is more pertinent ............. I can really see that happening

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Why do people keep on bringing up the riders in this mess, seriously, we would have 12 bikes on the grid next year if it wasn't for the CRTs. More bikes gives us more riders and more to talk about and get interested for. Some teams will always spend more than others but the problem with GP is when the teams with money are making the rules and making them around the engineering problems they have a head start on while also leasing crappy bikes to the non factory teams. It doesn't bother you that days after we find out that the 1000s would be running on 21 liters we also find out that Honda has a low pressure DI system that they will bring out next year. The rules in GP are so shady, nice way to work around the fuel pressure regs that they no doubt instituded, you can't get around fuel regs in F1 as a comparison. And don't go and say that this is a great engineering break through(DI), low pressure DI has been around for a while and most auto manufacturers liscence($$$$) a system from Orbital, an Australian firm who perfected low pressure DI. The series is not being dumbed down, the exact opposite is going to happen. Do you think we'll get more innovation from 4 major teams producing the bikes or having a grid with bikes that are produced by 8 to possibly 30 teams in the future. There is already a nice sized list of brilliant people, teams, and parts designers that want to jump on these CRT bikes. How could you are anyone else who claims to be into the engineering/tech not want to see what these people can do.

give King Kenny a Honda 1000cc motogp engine

Talpa said:

Thanks for your input Krop, this is actually quite a good debate bar one or two of the usually ridiculous Boners.



Personally, I would like to see the manufactures compete as in the days of old moreso than the CRT option. I simple lifting of the Honda restrictions, and an additional tyre supplier or two would no doubt encourage Kawasaki and Suzuki to properly rejoin, and also give Ducati a chance to implement the designs properly and not build a Japanese bike to compete.



We also have both Aprilia and BMW on the sidelines waiting for such a change.



I'm curious as to the attitude in the paddock towards Honda and the championship, is it one of praise or more like a begrudging of their influence to the legislating/purchasing of the title?



The most obvious, and cheapest change would be to out Bridgestone, and bring back Michelin or Dunlop. As you say using the tyres to control the pace would be the most effective solution. No doubt a big part of winning in this current formula, with the fuel restriction is ensuring that the bike's performance lasts because the tyres do not go off, this is against the philosophy of racing and endurance/rider skill. Bridgestone have over-engineered their rubber, and now are providing pathetic options which are the deciding factor for success or failure in Motogp.



A simple and effective change in compounds to ensure that the tyres suffer over race distance, coupled with a lifting of the fuel limit will;



a) slow the pace - keep the safety folks happy

take the engineers focus off making the bike last (fuel wise) until the end of the race with max power-less electronics/more rider skill

c) create potential variables in race results- which we do not have at present



IMO The combination of all of these factors will reduce cost, and provides the best shot at improving the spectacle to how it use to be and in-turn bring the dollars back. I would love nothing more than to see a Satellite team win a race......nowadays we don't even factor them into the top 5.



These restrictions have created the Casey Stoner's, Dani Pedrosa's and Jorge Lorenzo's of the world. One strategy is the option for these guys, go out, flat out and let the bike do the rest, and the tyres won't go off.....the strategic Human element is missing, that is why people are turning away, that is why other manufacturer's do not want to join. Much like F1 a few years back, the powers that be are underestimating their audience, of course the fans know what is going on.....this is why the passion is diminishing......I hope they can fix it......though for me this is fading too.

Click to expand...

BS makes the tires that way because of the electronics, this is what the MSMA(customer) wants from the tires. The electronics have an easier time with a consistant tire. This is the same reason that once the tires start to go off we see riders lap times completely fall and we see tires that are destroyed beyond normal, the electronics cant handle it. The electronics are easier to program with out the variable of a tire that will change that much during a race. At this time the best electronics don't use the wheel speed differential from the front and rear tire to control the engine and tire spin, this is all done by simulation now and cost a massive amount of money and why the electronics guys are way to important. The old way is cheapper but is bad for fuel and smooth engine operation. I posted an article about it in another thread. You can do this with the tires in F1 because there is no TC, only engine mapping that a driver has to control as the tires go out. If Dorna could force BS to porduce tires that truly go out it would be hell for the MSMA.

birdman said:

Kato died, Honda felt responsible. If you were the CEO of Honda with the blood of Kato on your hands, how would you feel? He was their favourite son at the time. So they tried to do something about it. They all agreed, 800cc fuel limited bikes would be slower thus safer. Even though it didnt work, I find the original intention to be genuinely honourable. I would be surprised if Honda used the death of a person to further their own secret, alteria motive, but maybe I'm just naive? Its easy in hindsight to say Honda ...... the whole thing up. Anyone seriously think Honda are sitting there thinking how can we totally .... up motogp? I just think they made a few mistakes, but overall it will work out in due time. People are too impatient. In short time we had a rider die, followed by a GFC, then a tsunami. All serious, life changing, devasting events and all people can say is im bored or this is all Hondas fault.

Click to expand...

On the money mate +1



Cheers



Gecko