Joined Mar 2016
2K Posts | 2K+
FNQ
NeroGiardini Motorrad Grand Prix von Trapp Austria 2017
- Thread starter MdubSTYLIE
- Start date
Joined Jul 2007
5K Posts | 1K+
unda cheese
Joined Nov 2015
872 Posts | 420+
Stratosphere
In point of fact, he and I got along quite well. Never had an unpleasant moment between us. It was you and the other flea brain that he hated. Funny how hard you work to ruin this place and now you won't even take credit for it.
Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
Crab Key
He announced his departure in the Forcada/Stoner thread.
Moving on to other things now that he has finally finished reading the entire website.
Now, as for Austria. Top drills by Dovi. Super clean last lap that left nothing for MM but a banzai move. To think we are 11 races in and AD has as many wins as MM (and MV).
Joined Jul 2007
5K Posts | 1K+
unda cheese
Didn't Dovi and Lorenzo start on the same soft tires?
Obviously I am not racing at that level but I would think at some point that Lorenzo would start thinking about tire conservation. You can't necessarily win the race in the first five laps like he used to do on a different bike with different tires.
I still remember Doohan starting from pole and letting a few others lead on a full tank for x number of laps, until he judged the time was right to swing the stick.
As Dovi said, he had tires for either the start or the finish but not both.
Obviously I am not racing at that level but I would think at some point that Lorenzo would start thinking about tire conservation. You can't necessarily win the race in the first five laps like he used to do on a different bike with different tires.
I still remember Doohan starting from pole and letting a few others lead on a full tank for x number of laps, until he judged the time was right to swing the stick.
As Dovi said, he had tires for either the start or the finish but not both.
Lorenzo used a different map early on to save fuel which is why he dropped off the pace on stated getting out dragged by everyone around him.
The reason why Dovi was able to save the tyres is because Marquez was trying to save fuel, if fuel wasn't an issue then the softs likely wouldn't have been a viable option at the track.
DORNA will implement a Mundialito and change the rules so that points can be dropped as selected by 'random' experts
Thought it was a brilliant race! Lorenzo did well and shows a bit of promise...
Mark and Dovi's last few laps
Just brilliant stuff, loved it. Although I did wonder after, if that had been Rosie that Mark had been duelling with so desperately, it wouldn't have been such a happy parc ferme...
Petrucci's start! What the heck...:ninja:
Brilliant race.
Quiet forum, but great race.
Mark and Dovi's last few laps
Just brilliant stuff, loved it. Although I did wonder after, if that had been Rosie that Mark had been duelling with so desperately, it wouldn't have been such a happy parc ferme...Petrucci's start! What the heck...:ninja:
Brilliant race.
Quiet forum, but great race.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
David, Dovi was on the "soft" and won the race. Lorenzo made the correct tire "choice" buddy (or I should say, gamble.) I know I talk tires to death here, but it really is crucial in understanding nuance what and why of the results. Something has happened to the ........ Michelin nomenclature for tire designation. Hards, mediums, and softs might as well be called x,y,z. For example, Marquez twice (that I can remember) has opted for the "mediums" in race because, as he explained, they were 'harder' than the "hards". Pedro & Viñalez have made similar odd choices, taking the "hards" over the "mediums" because the tires were actually 'softer'. My friend, it's a wacky Michelin ........ designation, and we're not even talking about the change in carcass from the #06 to the #70.
Part of the problem is the rolling rule book that Dorna manipulates for effect, the tire manipulation is one components of this yellow fluid situation. When Dorna introduced fuel limits at the behest of the Japanese manufacturer, this put the Italian marquee at a disadvantage. That is, Dorna effectively slowed down Ducati via rulebook; Dall'lgna countered by declaring an "open class". (Eleventh hour, changes ensued, concessions made, bla bla.) Fast forward (no pun) but again Ducati got screwed with the winglets ban, decidedly detrimental to the Italian manufacturer once again! For ........ "safety" (though a case could be made that the bike with the winglets was safer and without it unstable enough to be a safety concern). But I remember Rossi moaning about the disruptive air following a Ducati, so Carmelo can't have Valentca$$ino unhappy. Goodbye winglets. (Take a look back at Lorenzo's first Ducati test with the winglets then compare to when they were off the bike). The latest solution, though ... ugly, is a small revelation for Lorenzo, who needs confidence on the front (something that Michentinos eliminated when they intriduced a harder front, which incidentally was also detrimental to Viñalez). It's a bit simplistic to say Jlo's tire choice was misguided, given that these guys all have preferences. Dovi is considered a late braker (for perspective revisit the AustralianGP, Dovi out braked Marquez who is a demon on the brakes, add in the fact Honda's braking edge). What does this mean for tires? It means the front harder carcass is more suited to Dovi's style. We would be wrong to conclude it's an advantage for Dovi against the field(follow me here) but we could conclude it's (the harder carcass) and advantage over his teammate. Lorenzo's style is more corner speed, this requires a softer front tire, that is to say, Lorenzo is required to make the greater adaptation to the current Valentino tire than Dovi.
But it's not all about tires, though I'd argue it's the most crucial element. Ducati have said they prefer designing their machine to work with the softer options (something I read in BikeWeek when they reported the Michelin tire allocation for the Catalonia GP, which was similar to Muyellow). Consider Dovi qualified on rear "mediums" (just off pole) yet raced "softs". Why? Well, another part of this puzzle is fuel conservation. Again, going back to the ........ fuel limits imposed, Ducati's engine is thirsty, but it's complicated by the need to keep that front end down. Electronics for the most part solve this complex issue, but the new housed 'winglets' mitigate the front end; however at a cost. Plenty of HP to be sure, but if you take a look at the speed chart, Lorenzo was damn near the bottom, yet finished just off the podium. So the housed winglets slow down the Ducati but also fuel mapping plays it's role. Dovi and Lorenzo were a mere 6 second from eachother over race distance, Lorenzo's speed trap was significantly slower, I'd say it was a combination of fuel conservation and perhaps a setting where he dialed more fairing down force than Dovi. After all, Marquez and Pedro have significantly different aero-fairing packages.
Then there was last year's AustrianGP. The winner won on 'soft' tires, the runner up had a 'harder' option (mediums). Lorenzo's tire choice this weekend wasn't all that unorthodox.
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Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
What a mixed bag this thread... Please, carry on with the myth of an omnipotent Rossi calling the tires he "wants" if that gives you some onanistic pleasure: but VR certainly wasn't the only rider calling for a harder front, -- Marquez anybody -- and there was (or wasn't it there) a majority of riders voting for that tire, after all. And let us conveniently forget that Vinales (or better, Yamaha factory's) problems began when the "soft" front tire was still in use, well before the harder one became standard; and let us also ignore that both Vinales and Rossi could choose the chassis they preferred, nothing was imposed by Yamaha.
Track results show that the 2017 Yamaha does have some real problems, which didn't show in the initial races but did suddenly and dramatically emerge at Jerez for both factory riders. The 2017 chassis even in its most recent iteration seems to have trouble working well at certain tracks. And typically when these problems emerge, they affect Vinales and Rossi, as happened also on Sunday when they were both beaten by Zarco on the 2016 bike. Because of that (and because Honda solved their problems and Marquez can now ride at his best again, with Pedrosa in trail) an initially dominant Vinales experienced a setback.
At Ducati, Lorenzo is now quite fast with new tires. But he has not been able yet to exploit the efficient wear curve of the rear tire that is one of the best characteristic of the current Ducati. He tries his old disappearing act in the first laps, and so compromises the rear tire early and spoils its performance for the second half of the race. So he leads for a few laps, then falls back as soon as the rear tire goes down one notch and handling the bike becomes even more physical. That's what happened to him on Sunday. Maybe he doesn't want to copy Dovi's tactics, maybe it's just his instinct.
The real story of 2017 is the complicated choice and unpredictability of the Michelin tires. That is what is badly conditioning everybody. But even in the current uncertainty, Marquez is efficiently chasing his 6th title. Chances are that he, rather than Rossi, will reach that famous number 10.
Track results show that the 2017 Yamaha does have some real problems, which didn't show in the initial races but did suddenly and dramatically emerge at Jerez for both factory riders. The 2017 chassis even in its most recent iteration seems to have trouble working well at certain tracks. And typically when these problems emerge, they affect Vinales and Rossi, as happened also on Sunday when they were both beaten by Zarco on the 2016 bike. Because of that (and because Honda solved their problems and Marquez can now ride at his best again, with Pedrosa in trail) an initially dominant Vinales experienced a setback.
At Ducati, Lorenzo is now quite fast with new tires. But he has not been able yet to exploit the efficient wear curve of the rear tire that is one of the best characteristic of the current Ducati. He tries his old disappearing act in the first laps, and so compromises the rear tire early and spoils its performance for the second half of the race. So he leads for a few laps, then falls back as soon as the rear tire goes down one notch and handling the bike becomes even more physical. That's what happened to him on Sunday. Maybe he doesn't want to copy Dovi's tactics, maybe it's just his instinct.
The real story of 2017 is the complicated choice and unpredictability of the Michelin tires. That is what is badly conditioning everybody. But even in the current uncertainty, Marquez is efficiently chasing his 6th title. Chances are that he, rather than Rossi, will reach that famous number 10.
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Indeed -the differences in the range of compounds provided by Michelin at this meeting were very narrow. The parameters were almost overlapping depending on set up. Although rider preference and feel so often takes precedence with the factory rides, since this race is so determined by engineering strategy choice was also dictated by the selected fuel maps which governed Ducati's strategy last year. Also, a harder rear can spin up more due to generating less heat - which obviously consumes more fuel and in this case given the narrow margins can actually degrade faster than a well managed soft.
You credited Marquez with his titles accrued across all classes j8rn0??? - I thought that only applied to one rider?
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
I'm curious to know the general vibe in Italy at present with an Italian rider Italian bike contending for the championship? There's not much mention of it in the English press. The fact that it's Dovi, an absolutely top bloke, very humble, not exactly a showman almost apologetic if anything. In a word from my obviously biased view I'd dub Dovi the antiRossi. Btw I love the wings on the ugly duck. That has a nice ring to it, antiRossi wins world title riding ugly duck against the people's favourite Cinderella on the beautiful swan.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Birdy, remember when the minions were lining up to eat Andrea's children (the Iannone variety) because he dared do the unthinkable, race Rossi at Phillip Island? That's Italian love. Let's all just be happy Rossi hasn't attritioned into the points lead whilst Dovi remains under the contenders radar, we wouldn't want Andrea (the Dovi variety) involved in Italian friendly fire.
Let me answer your question: oh us Rossi fans would be happy for Dovi to win the championship, after all, if that happens, it's obviously Yamaha's fault for not delivering a good bike. I'm sure Michelin will get some blame too.
Joined Jun 2014
47 Posts | 41+
United States
My bad, thanks for the quality response, I follow this forum pretty well but I usually opt out of actually reading the tire debates since its hard as .... to follow. Part of the reason I didn't even realize Dovi had a soft (front?) is because of the fact that it is extremely difficult, at least for me, to identify what tires the riders are on unless the commentators specifically tell the audience. It is especially difficult when Nick Harris is ....... talking
I did not actually realize that the mediums were harder than the hards and that fuel mapping (which seems to mostly affect the Ducatis?) played such a significant role in race pace considering it is never discussed by the commentators. I figured riders were sliding around too much or something along those lines from the decreased grip of the hard tires leading to them having a shorter lifespan than the mediums. Lmao, How on earth did such a laughably stupid situation ever even occur in the first place? I understand that the 06 to 70 clusterfuck and all the fuel mapping rule changes and such were put into place to essentially handicap Ducati and elevate Yamaha (and Rossi), but surely the mediums being harder than the hards for well over a year now has to simply be down to Michelin's incompetence?
