Nakamoto: Spec ECU? HRC will defect to WSBK!

chopperman said:

What exactly is a "spec" ECU?

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Does it matter to companies like Honda? Unless Honda's electronics package becomes the new spec ECU, Honda will have to spend money to develop the new system. Unless Honda are in an altruistic mood, they will never support a spec-ECU of any kind, imo. HRC have nothing gain.



It begs the question: Why would Dorna flirt with a bad marketing concept, like spec-ECU, if it is going to aggravate the MSMA? Imo, Dorna are trying to reduce the advantage of factory electronics in a fuel-limited formula. I think we also have to question the authenticity of the spec-ECU proposal. We know Dorna are courting BMW, and we know BMW are obsessed with proprietary electronics in both moto and auto racing. It seems like a spec-ECU would be DOA at BMW HQ.



Imo, the spec-ECU proposal is a middle finger to all participants, not just HRC. The spec-ECU is purposed to create better racing by reducing the advantage of electronic advancement (rev-limit serves the same purpose) or to pressure the factories into abandoning the fuel-limited formula.

mylexicon said:

Does it matter to companies like Honda? Unless Honda's electronics package becomes the new spec ECU, Honda will have to spend money to develop the new system. Unless Honda are in an altruistic mood, they will never support a spec-ECU of any kind, imo. HRC have nothing gain.



It begs the question: Why would Dorna flirt with a bad marketing concept, like spec-ECU, if it is going to aggravate the MSMA? Imo, Dorna are trying to reduce the advantage of factory electronics in a fuel-limited formula. I think we also have to question the authenticity of the spec-ECU proposal. We know Dorna are courting BMW, and we know BMW are obsessed with proprietary electronics in both moto and auto racing. It seems like a spec-ECU would be DOA at BMW HQ.



Imo, the spec-ECU proposal is a middle finger to all participants, not just HRC. The spec-ECU is purposed to create better racing by reducing the advantage of electronic advancement (rev-limit serves the same purpose) or to pressure the factories into abandoning the fuel-limited formula.

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Well one thing we do know Lex is, what ever they do for what ever reason it will end up costing more, make the racing more processional and continue to scare off new comers.

With the current fuel levels, the restricted number of engines allowed the factories, the limits of getting power by purely mechanical engineering are evident - the place to go to get more power is by investing in electronics.



The difference in budget for electronics between the likes of Gresini, Tech3, Aspar and HRC/Yamaha/Ducati is akin to the difference in mass between a mouse and an elephant.



On the factory bikes, the number of sensors is stunning, the processing ability of the ECU is heading into server territory. With the ECU able to calculate such disparate items as wheel rotation, tyre temperature, fuel temperature, air temperature, air mass, track position, lean, remaining fuel, remaining laps, as well as the 'traditional' items such as throttle, speed, rpm, and deliver an optimised power setting for that specific second and then go on to do it again the next second and the second after that...



Contrast the ECU on the Moto3 bikes - [font=verdana, arial]Single-cylinder management (2 independent fuel injectors, one ignition driver), [/font][font=verdana, arial]Up to 14,500rpm. [/font][font=verdana, arial]At least 10 analog inputs (0-5V 10bit resolution) for analog sensors and temperature sensors. [/font][font=verdana, arial]UEGO lambda sensor input and management. [/font][font=verdana, arial]At least 4 input capture for wheel speeds and crank/cam sensors. [/font][font=verdana, arial]At least 4 ON/OFF inputs for switches. [/font][font=verdana, arial]Fuel Pump relay driver. [/font][font=verdana, arial]Stepper motor driver for throttle bypass/exhaust valve. [/font][font=verdana, arial]High speed CAN line (1Mbit/s). [/font][font=verdana, arial]PC-ECU plug-n-play communication cable. [/font]

[font=verdana, arial]Internal data logger:[/font]

[font=verdana, arial]At least 8Mbyte internal memory.[/font]

[font=verdana, arial]Not less than 200Hz max sampling frequency.[/font]

[font=verdana, arial]Not less than 64 max logging channels.[/font]

[font=verdana, arial]CAN line data download.[/font]



None of those restrictions currently exist in MotoGP - the RC213V is bristling with sensors and senders for everything from brake temp, gearbox temp, position, speed of actuation, etc. and the software needed to capture, analyze and make a decision based on all those inputs is where all the money is going.



A 'stock' ECU would have a common OS, a standardised processor, a common number of inputs and sensors and a common number of outputs and data storage. It would significantly take away the biggest advantage the factory have had over the satellite teams.



Remember what happened when Ducati's ECU recently glitched at Estoril? That is symptomatic of the advantage the factory has over the satellite teams - they place senders around the track to talk to the ECU and 'dopplerise' its position, enabling it to make mapping decisions. A standard ECU would likely not have that ability.



Recently it was mooted that Bradl might get Stoner's ride and HRC stated that his bike was essentially identical to the factory bikes, apart from the software. So mechanically Bradl is riding the same unit, but the software on Stoner and Pedrosa's bikes are giving them a significant advantage - getting that power down earlier and keeping the bike in better balance.

mylexicon said:

Does it matter to companies like Honda? Unless Honda's electronics package becomes the new spec ECU, Honda will have to spend money to develop the new system.

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I don't think there will be much 'development' of a stock ECU - that would kinda obviate the need for one in the first place.

chopperman said:

As usual mike you miss the point by a country mile. Where did i say i was offended ? i mealy retaliated to this pompous remark implying you and lex alone are the only members who get it. Who the .... is Lex to make that assumption?







And Lex, who could blame me for not bothering to read your posts when they start with such a bombastic statement.

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Lex possibly referenced me because I basically re-iterated his previous arguments; I was aware I was doing so before he joined this thread, and did so because I thought they were good arguments and accepted them, as I have accepted those of others in the past and would again accept yours if you made reasonable ones as you once did, rather than name call or assert that you are in absolute possession of the obvious truth which seems to be mainly your habit of late.



I still agree with him, and think it is important to remember that, although dorna may have stuffed up and honda may have taken the opportunity to pursue some abstruse engineering philosophy for their own inscrutable reasons that there was genuine distress even from honda and dorna about kato's death, that the 800 formula if in practice a poor one was initiated at least partly from good faith motives, and that the current circuits and their run-off areas can't cope with unlimited increase in speed, at least with current rider safety technology.



I have never claimed to be smarter than anyone else; I do have the gifted visual memory thing though, useful for exams in my youth if now only a minor talent in the day of the internet, hence why I did not need to rely on that amateur through the fence from the other side of the track video of the aftermath of the stoner/rossi jerez 2011 incident.

michaelm said:

Lex possibly referenced me because I basically re-iterated his previous arguments; I was aware I was doing so before he joined this thread, and did so because I thought they were good arguments and accepted them, as I have accepted those of others in the past and would again accept yours if you made reasonable ones as you once did, rather than name call or assert that you are in absolute possession of the obvious truth which seems to be mainly your habit of late.



I still agree with him, and think it is important to remember that, although dorna may have stuffed up and honda may have taken the opportunity to pursue some abstruse engineering philosophy for their own inscrutable reasons that there was genuine distress even from honda and dorna about kato's death, that the 800 formula if in practice a poor one was initiated at least partly from good faith motives, and that the current circuits and their run-off areas can't cope with unlimited increase in speed, at least with current rider safety technology.



I have never claimed to be smarter than anyone else; I do have the gifted visual memory thing though, useful for exams in my youth if now only a minor talent in the day of the internet, hence why I did not need to rely on that amateur through the fence from the other side of the track video of the aftermath of the stoner/rossi jerez 2011 incident.

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What's the point of debate if the debaters don't believe in there side? Your only problem Mike is.. i don't like stoner and i have pulled you up for continually harping on at the past ie 05 & 08 at any opportunity regardless of relevance.



The other point to note is, that particular point of discussion between myself and Lex regarding his comment has long past. Infact we moved on and engaged in discussion about ecu's dorna ect. It was you and you alone who has now come back in and dragged it all up so you can add your own subtle insults.

I doubt i will bother engaging in conversation with yourself in future, if you don't respect any of my input than may i remind you that you have the same option.

chopperman said:

What's the point of debate if the debaters don't believe in there side? Your only problem Mike is.. i don't like stoner and i have pulled you up for continually harping on at the past ie 05 & 08 at any opportunity regardless of relevance.



The other point to note is, that particular point of discussion between myself and Lex regarding his comment has long past. Infact we moved on and engaged in discussion about ecu's dorna ect. It was you and you alone who has now come back in and dragged it all up so you can add your own subtle insults.

I doubt i will bother engaging in conversation with yourself in future, if you don't respect any of my input than may i remind you that you have the same option.

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I replied to your comment as I had only just read it and it seemed directed at me.



To be fair, I guess responding to negative comments as I did twice is still being negative.

chopperman said:

What's the point of debate if the debaters don't believe in there side?

I doubt i will bother engaging in conversation with yourself in future, if you don't respect any of my input than may i remind you that you have the same option.

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michaelm said:

I replied to your comment as I had only just read it and it seemed directed at me.



To be fair, I guess responding to negative comments as I did twice is still being negative.

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Now you're really in the .... Michael. First you pissed off the Flat World brigade, then the Holocaust Deniers, followed by the ones who insist the moon landing was a Hollywood hoax, and after that it was the Klan and the NRA on the same day; last week it was Todd Akin. How can you expect to get anywhere in a debate unless you flex your muscles and intimidate opponents with insults. Why do you insist on trying to foist your pathetic logic and well-reasoned ideas on people who believe everything they say is right because they passionately believe in it? Until you get it through your thick skull that having a debate is more like arm-wrestling in a pub - than it is about an actual attempt to find a factual truth - you are doomed be a lonely social pariah. Now even Roger won't talk to you. One less Christmas card to put up on the mantle this year. Tsk tsk.

chopperman said:

I would have thought the whole lot. Generally the ecu will deal with ignition timing, cam timing if a variable system is used, fuelling and data logging. The thing to consider is, an ecu in a standard road vehicle will have many safety parameters mapped in. It will need to work without issue in very cold places like northern canada as well as somewhere like Arizona in a heat wave. It will need to work below sea level and several thousand feet above sea level without issue. It will also have to run on various octane fuels. all this costs power and torque. When tuning an engine for racing or to work only in a particular place these safety parameters can be removed and a more focused aggressive map used. My question with these things in mind is ,are we going top have a spec ecu to deal with all tracks and bikes, or will there be different parameters the teams can choose from with the spec ecu to suit there needs. I personally think Dorna are digging them selves into a hole 6 feet deep, 8 feet long and 5 feet wide if you know what i mean.

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MotoGP ECUs do a lot more than scan sensors, read a map or two, and then twiddle the injectors. The things are running adaptive traction control with different settings for each corner, calculating where they are on the track, rationing gas, logging data, and who knows what else. It would seem more accurate to call them an embedded computer system. As such, each factory's ECU will run in a distinct hardware and software environment, and will require lots and lots of custom programming. If Ezzy were to force a standard ECU, significantly complex programs would have to be at least partially re-written. The analogy would be porting a complex smart-phone app to run on an iPod - some of the core logic may transfer fairly well, but making the OS and program 'talk' to the hardware, and run well in an alien environment, will be a big challenge.

Geonerd said:

MotoGP ECUs do a lot more than scan sensors, read a map or two, and then twiddle the injectors. The things are running adaptive traction control with different settings for each corner, calculating where they are on the track, rationing gas, logging data, and who knows what else. It would seem more accurate to call them an embedded computer system. As such, each factory's ECU will run in a distinct hardware and software environment, and will require lots and lots of custom programming. If Ezzy were to force a standard ECU, significantly complex programs would have to be at least partially re-written. The analogy would be porting a complex smart-phone app to run on an iPod - some of the core logic may transfer fairly well, but making the OS and program 'talk' to the hardware, and run well in an alien environment, will be a big challenge.

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In "theory" it sounds like a great idea on paper. But like pretty much every major change Dorna has foisted on the sport it sounds like one can of worms too many.

Geonerd said:

MotoGP ECUs do a lot more than scan sensors, read a map or two, and then twiddle the injectors. The things are running adaptive traction control with different settings for each corner, calculating where they are on the track, rationing gas, logging data, and who knows what else. It would seem more accurate to call them an embedded computer system. As such, each factory's ECU will run in a distinct hardware and software environment, and will require lots and lots of custom programming. If Ezzy were to force a standard ECU, significantly complex programs would have to be at least partially re-written. The analogy would be porting a complex smart-phone app to run on an iPod - some of the core logic may transfer fairly well, but making the OS and program 'talk' to the hardware, and run well in an alien environment, will be a big challenge.

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Yeah and i bet it will be teams like HRC who will be the first to solve the issues caused by the spec ecu. Far from the top teams being handicapped by this rule change, they will be the only ones who will be able to afford the solutions. Im sure they will just fit smaller system dedicated computers to work alongside the spec ecu but separate so within the rules.

F1 adapted to a stock ECU with hardly a murmur of dissent. They don't get to .... about wid it either - the OS and its functions are fixed. They have inputs and outputs and they have to make their sub-systems work with what they get. I don't see it being markedly different in GP.



Moaning about the rules seems to be stock in trade for HRC... it just becomes background noise.



If Dorna/MSMS/RC/FIM/IRTA adopt a stock ECU, there will be much gnashing of teeth among the big teams because they will lose a lot of their special toys.



Herve Poncheral and co will love it and the results will show how much levelling out has been done.

chopperman said:

Im sure they will just fit smaller system dedicated computers to work alongside the spec ecu but separate so within the rules.

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That will not be within the rules, unless the rule-makers are completely myopic muppets. Looking at the other technical rules relating to electronics made by the FIM, they aren't that naive.

Zootalaws said:

I don't think there will be much 'development' of a stock ECU - that would kinda obviate the need for one in the first place.

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They have to learn how to use it properly. If Dorna replace Honda's PC with a Mac, Honda are going to have to develop the system. The system itself will not change, but their implementation of the system, and the software programming will evolve. New spending will be required.

mylexicon said:

They have to learn how to use it properly. If Dorna replace Honda's PC with a Mac, Honda are going to have to develop the system. The system itself will not change, but their implementation of the system, and the software programming will evolve. New spending will be required.

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I think dorna would like the F1 situation as has been said in previous threads, where there are mostly individual race teams and where large manufacturers largely supply engines rather than compete in their own right, and somebody like redbull can set up a competitive race team. How to get there from where they are would seem problematic though, particularly with there being much less money in bike racing than F1.



I have not seen F1 as a good role model for other motorsport for a long time, and have previously thought the recent innovations such as the KERS etc a little contrived, but there were genuine overtaking moves in the most recent race, and perhaps as martin brundle , with whom I seldom agree, said the drivers have had their minds opened to passing being at least possible in F1 now.

mylexicon said:

They have to learn how to use it properly. If Dorna replace Honda's PC with a Mac, Honda are going to have to develop the system. The system itself will not change, but their implementation of the system, and the software programming will evolve. New spending will be required.

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Or, at the very least, a re-direction of existing spending.

Even if Ezzy freezes the ECU spec for a long while, there will still be continual tweaking going on as the tires, chassis, and riders change.

what if the spec ecu prohibits any sort of tc/launch control?



or is that not even up for debate for the manufacturers?

mylexicon said:

They have to learn how to use it properly. If Dorna replace Honda's PC with a Mac, Honda are going to have to develop the system. The system itself will not change, but their implementation of the system, and the software programming will evolve. New spending will be required.

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If it is anything like the Microsoft/MacLaren ECU in F1, there's no 'programming' or 'developing' of the system - it is a packaged unit. But with thousands of parameters to tweak controlling all the discrete systems. So yes, they will need to learn how to integrate with their systems and how different parameters result in 'x' on the track. I am sure that is semantically what you meant (not a criticism or trying to be a pedant... electronic engineering of such systems is my bag )



Good article on the MES ECU here: http://www.f1technical.net/features/8055



I would hope Ezpeleta's vision is similar to how it has been stated by MES in the article: “It’s not about dumbing down to one level, it’s about elevating everyone up,” says Peter van Manen, managing director of MES. “A common electronics platform developed from a best-of-breed system has the potential to make a big difference for the whole grid.”



The big difference as reported by satellite teams is the amount of money needed to compete with the factories in the area of electronics. Aprilia has a good unit on their CRT, but it is worlds away from the sophistication of the HRC and Yamaha units. Even Ducati who acknowledge spending millions on electronic development are behind the state of play.



I can understand HRC not wanting stock ECU's - they have invested massively in the technology and it has given them a significant edge (witness their 'seamless' gearbox - all done with midgets and mirrors!). They would be loathe to mothball that technology.



As with F1, where they got the leading electronics-driven team on board by making them the supplier of the electronics package, Dorna could do worse than to enlist Honda's Electronics Division to be the provider.



Unless they end up with these as next years rookies

cliché guevara said:

what if the spec ecu prohibits any sort of tc/launch control?



or is that not even up for debate for the manufacturers?

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I don't think any trickery is out of the question, it's more about levelling the field. At the moment no-one can afford to compete with HRC and Yamaha. IIRC Honda said the majority of their spending on the RC213V was on the electronics - they have the mechanical engineering down pat - it's pretty much straight physics with a dollop of genius

Zootalaws said:

That will not be within the rules, unless the rule-makers are completely myopic muppets. Looking at the other technical rules relating to electronics made by the FIM, they aren't that naive.

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Where there's a will there's a way. Besides the definition of spec ecu in motogp is yet to be defined so imo too early for us to speculate on what will and will not be within the rules.