Nakamoto: Spec ECU? HRC will defect to WSBK!

michaelm said:

I hope they have good technical advisers. It is not as if they have never stuffed up a tech reg before. No track position aware mapping/tc sounds like a very good start though.

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I agree. No amount of leveling or limits or control anything has fixed the issues plaguing Motogp.

Iike a great blues guitarist, Dorna should be more focused on what they can lose instead of adding more.



Starting with fuel limit, control rubber and engine reg. Most likely a lot of the nanny tech would disappear without these regs....

Talpa said:

I agree. No amount of leveling or limits or control anything has fixed the issues plaguing Motogp.

Iike a great blues guitarist, Dorna should be more focused on what they can lose instead of adding more.



Starting with fuel limit, control rubber and engine reg. Most likely a lot of the nanny tech would disappear without these regs....

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Exactly. The spec-ECU is a pain in Dorna's ... b/c they have to find a supplier, rigorously test the new system and its integrity (performance and code security). Then they have to figure out how to enforce the rules they have written. If the MSMA would agree to 24L and rev-limits, the spec-ECU would be dropped. The electronics would still differentiate the best factories from the also-rans, but the costs of competition would be drastically reduced. Competitors have a much better chance to build a 1000cc engine that revs to 15,000rpm and uses 24L of fuel. The MSMA would have more competitors to defeat.



From Honda's standpoint, they already compete in a series with 1000cc, 24L, and a rev limit. Why should they compete in MotoGP as well as WSBK? Why not return to the days of 500 unit homologations and badass, fully-titanium SBKs (RC45, R7 OW-O2)?



Honestly though, if Honda can't figure out why pure prototyping is important without institutionalized plutocracy (via the technical regulations), GP is already done for. Honda are essentially saying, "if Dorna can't guarantee that the rules will allow rich factories to win, we have no reason to participate". Like Povol, Honda seem to think that the size of their wallet pre-qualifies them for whatever accolades they desire.

mylexicon said:

Exactly. The spec-ECU is a pain in Dorna's ... b/c they have to find a supplier, rigorously test the new system and its integrity (performance and code security). Then they have to figure out how to enforce the rules they have written. If the MSMA would agree to 24L and rev-limits, the spec-ECU would be dropped. The electronics would still differentiate the best factories from the also-rans, but the costs of competition would be drastically reduced. Competitors have a much better chance to build a 1000cc engine that revs to 15,000rpm and uses 24L of fuel. The MSMA would have more competitors to defeat.



From Honda's standpoint, they already compete in a series with 1000cc, 24L, and a rev limit. Why should they compete in MotoGP as well as WSBK? Why not return to the days of 500 unit homologations and badass, fully-titanium SBKs (RC45, R7 OW-O2)?



Honestly though, if Honda can't figure out why pure prototyping is important without institutionalized plutocracy (via the technical regulations), GP is already done for. Honda are essentially saying, "if Dorna can't guarantee that the rules will allow rich factories to win, we have no reason to participate". Like Povol, Honda seem to think that the size of their wallet pre-qualifies them for whatever accolades they desire.

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Oh 'my'

mylexicon said:

Exactly. The spec-ECU is a pain in Dorna's ... b/c they have to find a supplier, rigorously test the new system and its integrity (performance and code security). Then they have to figure out how to enforce the rules they have written. If the MSMA would agree to 24L and rev-limits, the spec-ECU would be dropped. The electronics would still differentiate the best factories from the also-rans, but the costs of competition would be drastically reduced. Competitors have a much better chance to build a 1000cc engine that revs to 15,000rpm and uses 24L of fuel. The MSMA would have more competitors to defeat.



From Honda's standpoint, they already compete in a series with 1000cc, 24L, and a rev limit. Why should they compete in MotoGP as well as WSBK? Why not return to the days of 500 unit homologations and badass, fully-titanium SBKs (RC45, R7 OW-O2)?



Honestly though, if Honda can't figure out why pure prototyping is important without institutionalized plutocracy (via the technical regulations), GP is already done for. Honda are essentially saying, "if Dorna can't guarantee that the rules will allow rich factories to win, we have no reason to participate". Like Povol, Honda seem to think that the size of their wallet pre-qualifies them for whatever accolades they desire.

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The spec ECU will also come with more fuel, probably 24 liters for all. The idea is to run the same system as is currently in Moto3, with the spec ECU management farmed out to the manufacturer. Only maps will be swappable, nothing more.

Kropotkin said:

The spec ECU will also come with more fuel, probably 24 liters for all. The idea is to run the same system as is currently in Moto3, with the spec ECU management farmed out to the manufacturer. Only maps will be swappable, nothing more.

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I was thinking about this during fp1 today. Isn't this just going to end up with the factories having to produce a bike that works on very specific tires and now a very specific ECU? Frames will all have to be designed around this. Why not drop the Engine rule, give them 25L, choices with tires, and restrict them to 1000cc. Keep the material "no no" list the same and just let them race . Hell, just for good measure take the TC away completely. Let the riders ride again.



The whole point being going back to the theory that it isn't a HP race everybody has ample, it's a matter of it being made tractable via tuning, sans (or mostly) electronics.



I mean the irony of the justification for TC development is that it can be passed down on to street bikes. And because of risk compensation it's not going to do .... for safety anyway. So what's the point of having it at all on MotGP or the street?



As for the mileage argument, let the ....... scooter department figure that one out. My '73 CB500 will kick the .... out of most cars on the street short of a Ferrari. It's 40 year old Japanese technology and it gets 42mpg. you're telling me they need to ruin MotoGP with 22L to get a modern sport bike to get better mileage than that? Does that add up? No, they're (MSMA) trying to chase out anybody who doesn't want to outspend them.

Kropotkin said:

The spec ECU will also come with more fuel, probably 24 liters for all. The idea is to run the same system as is currently in Moto3, with the spec ECU management farmed out to the manufacturer. Only maps will be swappable, nothing more.

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Who is going to participate in that version of the sport? Moto2, Moto3, and WSBK work b/c restrictive rules basically keep all of the bikes equal. If the bikes are equal and exotic materials are banned, a one-make series can be averted (in theory) and the manufacturers are willing to produce equipment. If MotoGP is spec, who will build equipment and who will watch? MotoGP would be redundant and expensive. The manufacturers would simply hire away the best riders and put them in cost-effective WSBK.



Basic decision theory and game theory essentially preclude Dorna from making such a disruptive move. The benefits are nil. The possible losses are incredible.



It's only believable if the MSMA are already lost. If that is the case, Dorna would have to add fuel and create spec rules.

bluegreen said:

Why not drop the Engine rule, give them 25L, choices with tires, and restrict them to 1000cc. Keep the material "no no" list the same and just let them race . Hell, just for good measure take the TC away completely.

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b/c that was the original problem. The MSMA were opposed to 26L-990cc, and back then the electronics were basically as unsophisticated as you've mentioned. The MSMA killed that formula as quickly as they could, probably for good reason. Unfortunately for us, they replaced 26L-990cc with a terrible new formula that relies on fuel capacity and spec tires to police capacity.



A tire war is a possibility in the future, but not without enforceable regulations. I think they tried in 2008, but those regulations ultimately failed to suppress costs or performance. Michelin quit and Dorna enacted the control tire.

mylexicon said:

Who is going to participate in that version of the sport? Moto2, Moto3, and WSBK work b/c restrictive rules basically keep all of the bikes equal. If the bikes are equal and exotic materials are banned, a one-make series can be averted (in theory) and the manufacturers are willing to produce equipment. If MotoGP is spec, who will build equipment and who will watch? MotoGP would be redundant and expensive. The manufacturers would simply hire away the best riders and put them in cost-effective WSBK.



Basic decision theory and game theory essentially preclude Dorna from making such a disruptive move. The benefits are nil. The possible losses are incredible.



It's only believable if the MSMA are already lost. If that is the case, Dorna would have to add fuel and create spec rules.

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Why hasn't this already happened? Why aren't BS, Dovi, RDP, CS, Rossi, or Hayden on a WSBK? WSBK doesn't generate the money for that kind of pay. If that happened it would look like the AMA with two rich riders who dominate the field and no one watches or gives a care about. If Honda did that they would just turn WSBK into what it was for Ducati for a few years and I don't think WSBK wants that. The FIM isn't going to allow WSBK to be faster than MotoGP, it'll never happen and it's easily controlled with tires. If Honda does leaves it will only makes other factories more interested in joining because it takes away a main competitor and leaves an instant void that they would happily fill.

mylexicon said:

b/c that was the original problem. The MSMA were opposed to 26L-990cc, and back then the electronics were basically as unsophisticated as you've mentioned. The MSMA killed that formula as quickly as they could, probably for good reason. Unfortunately for us, they replaced 26L-990cc with a terrible new formula that relies on fuel capacity and spec tires to police capacity.



A tire war is a possibility in the future, but not without enforceable regulations. I think they tried in 2008, but those regulations ultimately failed to suppress costs or performance. Michelin quit and Dorna enacted the control tire.

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Rider safety?



So what happens in the future? Have they hit a wall safety wise? I mean, barring more electronics, if the riders can't handle faster machines what do you do? And how long till WSBK catches up to the theoretical "safety wall" of MGP and just sits there beside them?



Just some thoughts. Because I've gone back and watched the 990 era beginning to end, it was awesome, 2006 in particular, why can't we go back? Put the TC genie back in the bottle (for reasons explained in my last post) and let them go at it.

just as Rea is heading to MotoGP

HRC are heading the other way

bluegreen said:

Rider safety?



So what happens in the future? Have they hit a wall safety wise? I mean, barring more electronics, if the riders can't handle faster machines what do you do? And how long till WSBK catches up to the theoretical "safety wall" of MGP and just sits there beside them?



Just some thoughts. Because I've gone back and watched the 990 era beginning to end, it was awesome, 2006 in particular, why can't we go back? Put the TC genie back in the bottle (for reasons explained in my last post) and let them go at it.

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That is the question really isn't it? In theory, you could trot out the 2006 M1, Desmo, RC211V, even the Kwaka and suzuki, with 06 spec Michelin's and Bridgestones and IMO you would instantly have a far better series, fairer, safer and more entertaining, even just as fast at a lot of circuits! Why not?

tyre wars?i prefer outright horsepower and normal tracks to 90° lean angle and huge runoffs because the performance is just too much.



let them ride on bricks and ban tc, problem solved.

i really don't know why some on here insist on including another variable that complicates racing and increases the performance to a point that its getting far more dangerous....guess what will happen then....smaller engines but this time it will be 50cc 4 strokes or wtf ever...

ask people who know, the way to control lap times and hence safety is by regulating the tyres. can't be done in a tyre war.

mylexicon said:

The manufacturers would simply hire away the best riders and put them in cost-effective WSBK.

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WSBK is not cost effective. It has a tiny part of the reach of MotoGP, especially in core target markets like Indonesia. Honda can't afford to leave MotoGP, because they can't afford to take the hit in scooter sales in MotoGP.



The more I hear from people, the more I believe that the whole R&D justification for MotoGP is sheer ......... The factories don't need to do R&D in MotoGP, or even in WSBK. The new ZX6 has TC and ABS, and is a 636. Where did Kawasaki develop that?



Motorcycle racing is a marketing exercise. Pure and simple. Media coverage wins. If WSBK can boost the popularity of the series to match MotoGP, then there's a justification....

Kropotkin said:

The more I hear from people, the more I believe that the whole R&D justification for MotoGP is sheer .........

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surprised?

i always insisted it was ........, how come bmw and aprilia have the most sophisticated safety systems for the road in sports bikes...

where great systems are developed is the national championships, abs has gotten better and better since honda developed on that.

but partial throttle fuel efficiency and lean combustion over 10k rpm...haha.

Kropotkin said:

WSBK is not cost effective. It has a tiny part of the reach of MotoGP, especially in core target markets like Indonesia. Honda can't afford to leave MotoGP, because they can't afford to take the hit in scooter sales in MotoGP.



The more I hear from people, the more I believe that the whole R&D justification for MotoGP is sheer ......... The factories don't need to do R&D in MotoGP, or even in WSBK. The new ZX6 has TC and ABS, and is a 636. Where did Kawasaki develop that?



Motorcycle racing is a marketing exercise. Pure and simple. Media coverage wins. If WSBK can boost the popularity of the series to match MotoGP, then there's a justification....

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Of course the R&D argument is BS, but I'm not talking about R&D.



WSBK is 24L, restricted materials, and rev limits. If MotoGP moves to 24L, rev-limits, and additional materials restrictions, HRC can claim that the series are basically redundant. If MotoGP and WSBK are redundant, WSBK is much more cost-effective, and with proper MSMA promotion, it would generate revenues.



HRC are only willing to spend $100M per season in MotoGP if the rules package guarantees front-runner status. If Dorna creates a formula that makes things more competitive at the front, HRC might as well run WSBK exclusively.



I'm not saying I agree with their reasoning. I'm explaining their position so people can see that HRC is not a racing corporation but a ........ organization of marketers and board executives. Engineers and racers know damn well why prototyping is preferable to retrofitting production bikes with prototype parts. Corporate shills can't see the difference. HRC can't seem to see the difference either, which indicates who runs the show at HRC. [paraphrase] We spend $X dollars; therefore we are entitled to Y position in the championship [/paraphrase]. MotoGP is as sterile for HRC as a trip to the local Walmart.

mylexicon said:

Of course the R&D argument is BS, but I'm not talking about R&D.



WSBK is 24L, restricted materials, and rev limits. If MotoGP moves to 24L, rev-limits, and additional materials restrictions, HRC can claim that the series are basically redundant. If MotoGP and WSBK are redundant, WSBK is much more cost-effective, and with proper MSMA promotion, it would generate revenues.



HRC are only willing to spend $100M per season in MotoGP if the rules package guarantees front-runner status. If Dorna creates a formula that makes things more competitive at the front, HRC might as well run WSBK exclusively.



I'm not saying I agree with their reasoning. I'm explaining their position so people can see that HRC is not a racing corporation but a ........ organization of marketers and board executives. Engineers and racers know damn well why prototyping is preferable to retrofitting production bikes with prototype parts. Corporate shills can't see the difference. HRC can't seem to see the difference either, which indicates who runs the show at HRC. [paraphrase] We spend $X dollars; therefore we are entitled to Y position in the championship [/paraphrase]. MotoGP is as sterile for HRC as a trip to the local Walmart.

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I don't think honda's motives are all that noble, but I don't think they are very simple either. I agree r and d has had little to do with it, now or previously, but is I believe what they use to justify the racing programme to the aforementioned corporate marketers and bean counters.

cliché guevara said:

I always insisted it was ........, how come bmw and aprilia have the most sophisticated safety systems for the road in sports bikes...

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I own a 4-cyl BMW and an Aprilia 1000... I wish my Aprilia felt like it has a sophisticated safety system... if feels like it has a sophisticated system for extracting my license from my wallet

Kropotkin said:

WSBK is not cost effective. It has a tiny part of the reach of MotoGP, especially in core target markets like Indonesia. Honda can't afford to leave MotoGP, because they can't afford to take the hit in scooter sales in MotoGP.



The more I hear from people, the more I believe that the whole R&D justification for MotoGP is sheer ......... The factories don't need to do R&D in MotoGP, or even in WSBK. The new ZX6 has TC and ABS, and is a 636. Where did Kawasaki develop that?



Motorcycle racing is a marketing exercise. Pure and simple. Media coverage wins. If WSBK can boost the popularity of the series to match MotoGP, then there's a justification....

Click to expand...

Interesting