Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
MotoGP's Future
- Thread starter Mental Anarchist
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Barry's right. You think Speedmaster can pay Rossi's wages?
The factories want a showcase for their technological prowess and to expose their brand. They don't get that in WSBK, so they're not going there. They want to stay in MotoGP, and Ezpeleta wants to have the cachet of factories racing in his series. So they've got to find a way of limiting cost while still allowing technology R&D. A spec ECU, or some other limit on electronics, will definitely happen, but it will be informed by the MSMA, and be based on their input. But the days of factories (Honda) using cost (expensive rules) to push out other competitors are gone.
Thank you, Krop. Please explain why Dorna have no vested interest in kicking out the manufacturers and their piles of money. As if Dorna's negotiations to ensure continued manufacturer participation, though the MSMA no longer control the rulebook, is not proof enough that Dorna want/need the manufacturers to hang around.
For those of you who may not follow the business aspect of MotoGP (or autosport) with as much passion as I do, Jarvis' remarks give some incite into the negotiations between Dorna and the MSMA. As we all know, Dorna are dedicated to cutting costs, and the horsepower limits they want to impose would essentially turn MotoGP into a market-building exercise, rather than the brand-building exercise it is now. Market building will increase exposure and grow revenues. This can only be construed as a good thing b/c the brand-building exercise that Honda sponsors has not helped motorcycle racing and has caused severe contraction of the motorcycle racing industry, including the near-demise of AMA SBK--a series long dependent upon Honda's lackey, Ray Blank. For the record, Ray Blank is about the only person on this planet towards whom I harbor personal animosity for his complete lack of pragmatism, so take my remarks with a grain of salt.
Anywho, if MotoGP is to be converted from a brand-building exercise (cubic dollars always wins) into a market-development exercise, the manufacturers will naturally need to penetrate the Asian and South American markets. Imo, Jarvis' remarks are reason for optimism b/c it suggests that the manufacturers may be willing to remain in MotoGP if the fuel-limits are replaced by strict horsepower limits.
Also, to anyone who makes a hobby of tracing my location, I'm in Denver working on a land deal. Hopefully, I will be in Oregon to negotiate a farm deal for my brother at the end of this month. Didn't want to go missing.
Joined Feb 2008
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Thought I'd post this here.
http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/201201275925/Sacchi-vs-Aprilia-brain-drain.html
http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/201201275925/Sacchi-vs-Aprilia-brain-drain.html
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
How does someone go about showcasing their technical prowess, with spec ecu's and rev limits.
Joined Feb 2008
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I'm not on the inside of the racing world, so thankfully I can harvest some hope from Krop's optimism. However, looking in from the outside I can't help but think: how much is stopping companies like Honda and Yamaha from pulling out all together? Is it possible that Ezy overestimates his leverage? Is SBK as really that much of a no-go for them? And even if it is, will they care enough if they can't race on the world stage?
I hope Ezy knows what he is doing, but I have my doubts.
I hope Ezy knows what he is doing, but I have my doubts.
How did they do it with fuel limitations? In F1 they had spec-ECU, capacity limits, spec V-angle, spec firing order, cylinder count limits, valve count limits, bore limits, AND rev limits. The manufacturers weren't terribly happy, but they knew good engine builders would still pull away from the also rans. It wasn't until engines were equalized and contractual issues caused the withdrawal of major competitors. Dorna is only proposing a spec-ECU and a rev limit.
Spec ECU doesn't really mean anything. They could order a spec ECU that is even more advanced than the MM unit they use now. Besides cost containment and the desire to ban a few technologies that couldn't be regulated without spec equipment, F1 went to spec ECU in order to ban a specific type of traction control that made an ugly noise when the engine cut spark.
I don't want a spec ECU, but it doesn't have to be a dumbed down piece of kit. Also, we already saw the impotence of the electronics restrictions during the launch control and electronically-controlled-clutch debacle of 2008 (or was it 2009?).
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
I
If anything EVER showcased their technical prowess, it was building 220 mph machines while overcoming fuel limitations. I never liked limited fuel, but ......., the technology that was born because of it was pretty damn impressive dont you think.. As far as F1, for the countless time, tech regs that work in car racing do not work in bike racing,the majority of the fans are totally different animals, not to mention minute in numbers comparably speaking. Everyone can relate to cars, very few relate to bikes.
If anything EVER showcased their technical prowess, it was building 220 mph machines while overcoming fuel limitations. I never liked limited fuel, but ......., the technology that was born because of it was pretty damn impressive dont you think.. As far as F1, for the countless time, tech regs that work in car racing do not work in bike racing,the majority of the fans are totally different animals, not to mention minute in numbers comparably speaking. Everyone can relate to cars, very few relate to bikes.
Well, don't that beat all. A rule that was clearly designed to slow down the bikes and marginalize their prototype status actually created a bunch of awesome technology.
Honestly, I don't know where to begin. Should I inform you that a majority of the cool technology used in MotoGP has been used in other motorsports applications for quite some time so it wasn't created by fuel rules? Should I remind you that they actually started banning technology to keep it away after the 21L rule was adopted? Should I point out the inconsistencies in believing fuel-limitations create technology while rev limits and electronics limits destroy technology?
I don't think its worth it b/c you see the manufacturers as the end, not the means to an end. No one with common sense approaches the sport that way, hence, all of your favorite motorsports past times have been ruined, .....-fied, dumbed-down, and disgraced by communist TV executives. You did make one canny observation, if it works in cars it doesn't work for motorcycles. Horsepower limits have ruined car racing, horsepower limits tend to make motorcycle racing more interesting.
Joined Jul 2006
11K Posts | 291+
Texas
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Technically, all series are limited because of displacement. The only meaningful series i know of that has a flat hp limit is Moto 2, unless you want to count CSB., Moto 1 is obviously what Lex dreams of as the pinnacle of bike racing. Spec tires, spec ecu,bore limit , hp limits,, sound an awful lot like a spec series.
I've written novelas about technical formulas that could be used in MotoGP or any prototype racing series. None of them could be construed as spec. None of my ideas for production bike racing could be construed as spec either. If you knew how I wished racing would work, in general, you'd realize how far away from spec I want the sport to be.
At this point, you know damn well what is horsepower limited and what isn't. Moto2 is openly horsepower limited. BSB is now openly horsepower limited. DMG own AMA SBK, and since DMG would never allow "real racing", I think it's safe to count AMA as horsepower limited--DSB for certain b/c they dyno the bikes and adjust the rules. WSBK is strictly horsepower limited, but if we need to pretend otherwise, I'll play along.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
What are the numbers they are limited too. I know Moto 2 is limited to 125 hp, but i must have missed the other series published numbers. DSB does not dyno bikes like CSB after every race. They did dyno the top 600's and the big block Buell to see if the HP and torque disparity was as big as fans and competitors said it was, and i it was, so they made a weight adjustment. That by no means says DSB has a hard HP limit, it just the silly DMG performance indexing at work.
How do you think DMG adjust horsepower? Rev limits. DMG assign rev limits to each competitor to equalize horsepower. They seize the bikes after the races to make sure mechanical components can't be changed, and they check the dyno figures against the black boxes (Moto2 uses black boxes as well) to make sure no one is sandbagging the dyno with electronics. Rev limits are assigned to the bikes to equalize hp/weight, and they have weight/torque adjustments as well. BoP isn't necessary in SS and SBK b/c the tuning standards allow the bikes to be equal with a single rev limit for all competitors of a common capacity. Honda and Kawasaki focused mainly on 600s b/c that's what sells in the US. Now you know why Ray Blank is thoroughly pissed with the DSB rules, yet people like me wonder why the manufacturers are too clumbsy to cut a deal for "real racing".
Production racing series don't publish the information b/c it is proprietary intellectual property. The FIM affiliated series (the AMA is one of them) share information with one another, but they don't want it made public. BSB is the most public with "homologated rev limit + 750rpm", formerly "homologated rev limit + 500rpm" during the original BSB Evo. That's about as good as the info is going to get, unless one of us manages to bug a meeting or steal the homologation papers.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Again, show me in the rule books where any of what you just said outside of the BSB info is actually factual, or is it just your opinion .
You do realize Moto 2 is an FIM affiliated series, their information is public, and their motors are as production as you can get.
You ask so what abbout motogp??? And so what is going to happen to motogp??? What is going to happen is the same as it’s happened in the past years we have had this in the past in this great sport. In the future e are going to have development innovation and a bunch of great riders that will put their life on the line to achieve greatness, nobility, famousness etc etcc etc, which is the pinnacle of participating in the greatest and most DANGEROUS and SKILLFULL SPORT IN THE WORLD!!! Forget about F! that is a ..... SPORT motogp is greatest sport in the world...F! drivers dont have BALLS like the great riders of our sport F! drivers dont take the risk that our herous do and this is what makes the great goal towardsbeing a motogp rider…and the future is ‘RIGHR OUT THERE’ no one knows, I have been following this great, wonderful sport and I have been riding motorcyces for over 40 years and I have followed this sport and seen it develop into a SUPER sport as F1. But??? In saying this I consider motogp as a 1000%>>>and greater excitement than F1! And I consider comparing motogp to F1 a ‘SACRALIGE’!!! 'LONG LIVE MOLTOGP' AND RIP MARCO YOU ARR A TRUE CHAMPION!!!
Joined Apr 2011
900 Posts | 4+
somewhere else
Joined Apr 2011
900 Posts | 4+
somewhere else
