Joined Jun 2007
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Norah Head
MotoGP's Future
- Thread starter Mental Anarchist
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I was clearly referring to production bike racing series. Regardless, have you seen the homologation papers for anything in MotoGP? The fuel system papers? The fuel tank papers? The Moto3 engines? The FIM drop a rev limit on the public, and you imagine that we know everything we need to know.
If you want to understand the volume of homologation papers for racing, read Appendix J for FIA competition. Actually, I know you won't, so I'll provide the links so you can understand what homologation papers are like. FIA Appendix J is for roll cages, and the FIA make it public (along with other safety documents) b/c they (or their insurance underwriters) believe it is more important to save lives than develop proprietary safety information. Appendix J has 25 articles for 2012, and each article is roughly 5-10 pages. In addition to the articles, there are 31 seperate technical drawings to supplement Appendix J.
All of that JUST FOR ROLL CAGES.......which are only a small subset of the total safety appendices/standards published by the FIA.........who are just one sanctioning body. That doesn't even begin to address the actual racing machinery. How many volumes of information do you suppose they have for the hundreds/thousands of FIA homologated production cars that have raced over the years and the dozens of groups and classes they've raced under?!
Motorcycle racing is much simpler, and the FIM is less sophisticated, but somewhere in the FIM headquarters is a miniature warehouse of rules, certificates, and licenses that motorcycle fans never get to see. Given the preponderance of circumstantial evidence, including a verbatim reference to a homologated rev limit in a series that uses FIM homologation procedures, it is more absurd to believe that SBK racing is not rev limited (or at least strictly horsepower regulated). We already know the Ducati 1198 is air restricted (the least powerful bike, in theory) so at least one bike has strict horsepower regulations. Why are Ducati's air restrictors in the rulebook? B/c Ducati would never homologate the production bike with the air restrictors attached so they had to be added in the rulebook, along with the performance index.
Anyway, bringing this post back to the main point, rev limiting is not the end of MotoGP. While rev limiting isn't preferrable to unlimited racing, it is far more compelling than the current fuel-limit, which is an elaborate ruse to give the appearance of technological advancement (kind of like the moving rev limit in WSBK) while allowing the major MSMA factories to dominate MotoGP by introducing price-prohibited technologies. I don't believe that was the original intent, but the MSMA created something they couldn't control without constant rules changes and bigger budgets.
If fuel limits are out of the question, something the auto world learned 30 years ago during Group C, then what? The answer is obvious, and Dorna bring it up on a weekly basis--rev limiting, THE performance control standard for 4-stroke motorcycle racing. SBK shows it works, and without the complexities of the production market, rev limits should bring lots of manufacturers into the fray, which will hopefully rejevunate the sportbike industry, instead of allowing it to be dominated by a manufacturing cartel. If the Japanese are as good as they appear, they will continue winning, but their brand identity will be even stronger b/c they will actually have manufacturers to beat, instead of destroying their own industry.
Exchanging information is never a waste of time. Besides, I'm more interested in finding out why Povol wants the things he wants. If I cared about convincing people, I would have left 4 years ago.
Joined Oct 2006
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Your Mom's House
Joined Feb 2007
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Tennessee
So your answer is no, you do not have any proof whatsoever, except some secret papers, in a secret vault that you theorize exists and would vindicate your 4 year rant about HP limits and rev limits.
I've said that on numerous occasions. It is not remarkable that companies can keep their intellectual property away from the prying eyes of the general public. It is remarkable that I would tell you that DMG performance index DSB and use rev limits to control power (same as Daytona Prototype), but you, the hater of all things NASBIKE, would proclaim that DMG use real racing.
This is an interesting reversal of circumstance. I suppose you will be riding to the Big Kahunas at Road Atlanta this season.
Joined Feb 2007
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Tennessee
Why would i need you to tell me that DMG uses performance indexing, that is clearly stated in the tech regs. Whats not stated is that DMG has a hard limit on revs and Hp. When the uproar over the big block Buell was raging, they took the top 600's and the Buell and dynoed them.According to witness's the 600's ranged from from 117 to 125 hp at varying rpm's. You would think that if there was a rev and hp limit, the top teams would be damn near identical in performance, but that wasnt the case.DMG is basically using .... fuel and .... tires to slow down their series, not hard rev and hp limits.
My 2 cents
Pls Dorna stop removing every freakin' motoGP vid on youtube. MotoGP as a sport isn't as accessible as Nascar, F1, NBA, Tennis, Soccer and even GOLF. Do yourself a favor and do more promotions on the web please. Rossi, Lorenzo, and Pedrosa are marketable enough; still doesn't cut it though. Especially here in Asia. That or just too bad for me I'm not in England or something. And please also stop with your pay to view .... on your main website. BOXING has pay per view, but thats it. After that, nadda'. I can understand charging for ongoing current races but I can't freakin' stand it that I can't watch old "OOOOOOOOOOOLD" motoGP vids. Sheesh.
Pls Dorna stop removing every freakin' motoGP vid on youtube. MotoGP as a sport isn't as accessible as Nascar, F1, NBA, Tennis, Soccer and even GOLF. Do yourself a favor and do more promotions on the web please. Rossi, Lorenzo, and Pedrosa are marketable enough; still doesn't cut it though. Especially here in Asia. That or just too bad for me I'm not in England or something. And please also stop with your pay to view .... on your main website. BOXING has pay per view, but thats it. After that, nadda'. I can understand charging for ongoing current races but I can't freakin' stand it that I can't watch old "OOOOOOOOOOOLD" motoGP vids. Sheesh.
If they are using tires and fuel, why do they need a dyno?
Production bikes only make equal horsepower if liberal tuning rules are adopted (e.g. FIM SBK or FIM Supersport (AMA SBK)). DSB doesn't allow cams or port/polish so the bikes are not naturally equal with a single rev limit. DMG must gather data to get the BoP right. Balancing the 600s is child's play b/c the engines are basically spec anyway. Balancing the twins has not gone well. The 848 was too fast, then too slow last year. The 1125R was never right. The 1198R was not well balanced in SBK, either.
You've got to learn to decode the vagaries in their rhetoric b/c everything they talk about is under non-disclosure. When Ray Blank says he doesn't want "car racing" rules, he's talking about BoP. Unlike the FIM and ACO, DMG use rev limits, not air-restrictors, to control horsepower. Why do you think they like SBK so much. It's already rev limited, and the competitors all use roughly the same engine (compared to car racing).
According to Krop. BBC made them kill the youtube fan videos. I think there is a degree of truth to it, but I doubt BBC forced Dorna to kill of footage of classic races or fan videos. When Dorna were forced to pay for youtube's content matching service, they decide, on their own, imo, to ban everything including footage pertaining to the BBC contract.
Joined Feb 2008
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Joined Oct 2006
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Your Mom's House
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Great read, it deserves its own thread me thinks. Btw, Pov should feel a bit more at easy, since Luvio goes out of his way to stroke the uneasy feelings of those resistant to change.
Ah, good 'ole Dean. I rarely get bent over personalities, but the dynamic duo of Dean Adams and Ray Blank are enough to make my head hurt. Insisting through questions that HRC must be angry about CRT. Referring to the current uncertainty in the rules as a rolling rulebook. They guy can't help himself. If CRT is fake NASCRAP, he's going to believe it regardless of who contradicts him. He'll even accuse Suppo of hypocrisy b/c apparently it's not simultaneously possible to cut costs and grow revenues. As long as Deano parrots the words of Ray Blank, all is well.
Trepidation from patronizing SBKPlanet aside, I think everyone should take this interview with a grain of salt. I'm convinced Suppo is politicking for Ezpeleta's job (or similar), and I doubt he would dissent about the CRT concept. Not that there is much reason to dissent, but he went out of his way to speak as Livio Suppo, the MotoGP sage, not Livio Suppo, the HRC marketing director.
I think the interview gives even more depth as to how the GPC works. All of them have a relatively specific vision for what they want to create, and they continue tweaking the rules until their masterpiece is completed. While this is a preferable trait for business executives to develop products, it is not acceptable for governance. That is why Max Mosley refused to relinquish control of F1 to the commercial rights company or the manufacturers. He knew that governance is the work of lawyers and economists. Unfortunately, the FIM are too weak to have any serious bearing on MotoGP or SBK. Many people theorized that 4t would bring about the demise of MotoGP, but I think the lack of proper governance has done far more damage to the sport.
Joined Jan 2011
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The North!
Joined Feb 2007
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Tennessee
Im on record as saying if they feel they must put CRT bikes on a GP grid, they should have different championships. Without it, they stick out like the grid fillers they are. One downside to that would be if the economy ever came around and money started flowing, teams more than likely would defect back to prototypes, killing the CRT championship.That wouldnt bother me, but it might alienate some who are fans of CRT. No doubt there would be plenty of teams willing to fill the CRT void, but do we want 30-35 bikes on a GP grid.
