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MotoGP vs. WSBK

Joined Mar 2007
8K Posts | 2K+
Texas
<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%What if the 2012 surprise is not the return of 990cc GP bikes, but the introduction of 800cc SBKs?

Everyone knows I like to gather bits of information and try to assemble them into a big picture. The economic crises within MotoGP has brought a lot of information to light and it has lead to major changes to both WSBK and MotoGP, but I'm having trouble figuring out what the next big change will be.

MotoGP seems to have worked itself into a bit of a catch 22. As anyone in GP will tell you, MotoGP MUST be faster than WSBK, a big part of GP's identity is wrapped up in featuring the fastest bikes on the planet. Over the last few seasons GP's performance advantage has become less obvious. If the governing body continues cut costs and control the tires and slow GP bikes down, WSBK will gain rapidly, but if GP speeds the bikes up (990s) they will have safety problems. Also, the IRTA chief Herve Poncharal has expressed recently his frustration that GP and WSBK are not properly differentiated. He claims he frequently must explain to sponsors which series he is trying to obtain sponsorship money.

I was thinking about 2012 and the possible return of the 990s, but I began to realize that 990s will not really solve the performance differential between GP and WSBK because GP has already said they don't want the sport to be faster. Furthermore, the manufacturers do not appear to be making arrangements to return to the 990s. Instead, they are testing new ideas to expand 800cc operations by producing more engines and leasing them to chassis builders. It made me ask the question, what if GP slows down WSBK instead? What if the big surprise for 2012 is not the reemergence of the 990 beasts we love, but the introduction of 800cc SBKs? Or worse, maybe the 2012 surprise is that the big 4 are pulling out of WSBK all together in an attempt to differentiate between the two series?

I know it seems inconceivable that the manufacturers would pull out of WSBK, but if you remember the very high profile meeting that Dorna had with the MSMA and the FIM, you may remember that one of the biggest objectives of the MSMA was to use motogp to start driving sales.

What if the manufacturers are planning to turn SBKs into 800cc MotoGP clones instead of independent 1000cc racebikes, and then use MotoGP race activities to sell bikes instead of WSBK racing activities? 1000s don't really sell very well in relation to 600s mainly because of the cost and the excessive unusable performance characteristics. I wonder if the manufacturers think 800s might do much better in the global market place?

If you look at historical events under the assumption that the MSMA is going to change WSBK or even withdraw from WSBK, it gives new meaning to the events of the past. What if WSBK allowed Ducati 200cc displacement and it rushed Aprilia and BMW into WSBK b/c they were worried that the Japanese manufacturers would be able to drop SBK or change the SBK premier class to rules more similar to the 750 formula?

Yamaha's WSS withdrawal announcement has come amidst widespread rumors that the 2010 or 2011 R6 will be a close relative of Valentino Rossi's MotoGP bike----sharing almost identical fairings and a cross plane crank with the M1. Yamaha's move looks like a trend setter---turn production bikes into a MotoGP clones and stop using WSBK to drive sales. Furthermore, Yamaha are rumored to be dropping most of its support for the WSBK outfit if Spies wins the title and makes the jump to MotoGP. Are Yamaha really going to lay off a world class racing outfit like Yamaha Italia? or are they going to transition them into GP to run satellite bikes and test parts that can't be tested under the current rules?

Anyway, I'm wondering what the future holds, and if the GP manufacturers are moving SBK assets under the shroud of darkness (the economic recession) to GP. There have been widespread reports/rumors of drastic reductions to SBK budgets and factory support, and there have been widespread reports that manufacturers are actually trying to increase support in the GP class. Don't forget Honda have already started to transition WSBK assets to GP by putting Ten Kate on Moto2 engine prep duty.

I have a very strange feeling that a cold war of sorts is brewing behind the scenes, and I think the Japanese are preparing to turn GP into a fortress that has no little or no access to outsiders regardless of what the rules say (the engine leasing rules are part of the entrenchment process). Not even Commodore Perry will succeed in reopening GP to the general public.

Kawasaki are walking the ridgepole of the roof. Which way will they fall? Try to conquer 1000cc SBKs against Ducati, Aprilia, and BMW? or ante up and return to GP with their compatriots? I think it's obvious that the OEMs are getting tired of running 2 circuses.

What does this mean for the national series?

I really think something big is about to go down and motorcycling as we know it will be changed for the foreseeable future.
 
Definitely an interesting theory. I'm excited to see what happens in the next couple of years, and to see the rumored 2011 R6 if it really is similar to the M1. Although, if the Japanese merely drop out of Superbike racing altogether for the sake of 800cc replicas, they won't really be slowing down WSBK will they? They will still have to contend with Ducati, Aprilia and BMW progressing in the series and keeping lap times close to GP speeds. That is, of course, assuming WSBK survives without the Japanese. To me, it would make more sense for those involved to lower SBK capacity and raise MotoGP. Just my thought though. Very interesting, Lexy.
 
Poncharal claimed that potential sponsors are having difficulty telling the difference between Moto GP and WSBK; is this due to a reduced performance gap or to the aesthetic similarity that motorcycles have? If the latter is true, how would 800cc SBKs help with this?
 
something else to think about is way do Susuki still run a GSXR 750 and are the only manufactureer to do so? could we see 750s back. I know thats a shot in the dark but you never know. which in turn could be other manufacturers could be years behind and Suzuki win the titles haha 600 are to revy and 1000 are to close to GP and almost unuseable on the road. I would love it if they bought back a new 750 ninja like the 7R.

GP needs to lower costs for sure, but higher displacment should solve this problem. as less electronic tecnogadgitry is needed to control traction in corner as corner speed is slower with bigger bikes.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Sep 21 2009, 12:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Poncharal claimed that potential sponsors are having difficulty telling the difference between Moto GP and WSBK; is this due to a reduced performance gap or to the aesthetic similarity that motorcycles have? If the latter is true, how would 800cc SBKs help with this?

Sorry, that argument was not well developed. I think the MSMA are taking a strategy that will allow them to differentiate or that will give them a guaranteed performance advantage.

Scenario 1: The Japanese produce 800cc SBKs and WSBK try to change the rules.

The MSMA would probably go to straight to FIM sport-court and claim that 800cc is MotoGP's displacement property (like WSBK claimed about 1000cc when GP went to 4-strokes). Even if InFront won and adopted a new formula, the Japanese bikes would probably not be raced b/c they would have no factory support.

Herve gets to go to his sponsors and Dorna get to go to their sponsors and say they race in GP--the series with Honda, Yamaha, and Suzuki that is 5 seconds faster than WSBK.

Scenario 2: The Japanese produce 800cc SBKs and WSBK decides not to change the rules.

MotoGP is clearly differentiated and WSBK would probably not be able to change the formula in order to increase the speed of WSBK equipment in order to put GPs performance advantage at risk. Furthermore, WSBK would be left with 3 small manufacturers who cannot drastically increase their commitment to the sport and who cannot afford to run a more technically sophisticated formula. The fans might get angry, but no one buys 1000s anyway so chances are it won't significantly hurt sales.

Herve and Dorna get to go to their sponsors and say they race in GP---the series with Honda, Yamaha, and Suzuki that is faster than WSBK.

Don't forget the revenue sharing agreements either. I'm assuming that Honda, Yamaha, and Suzuki would all get a bigger piece of the pie for consolidating their racing activities under the GP tent. The MSMA teams will receive more sponsorship and a much bigger share of the commercial rights.

Herve also said that it was a shame that MotoGP can pull viewership figures that compete with F1, but the teams can't even come close to F1's total budget.

I think that was a very guarded shot at Dorna who divide the sports revenues amongst its various projects.
 
I'll be pissed if the manufacturers basically make a shady deal and WSBK goes away or is basically ruined.

At the moment its possibly my favourite series to watch, the bikes just seem more... fun, both to ride and watch). Whilst I wont deny gp has the best riders (well the best 4 at least), WSBK certainly has its own characters and place in the market.
 
Also, in World Superbike you see a lot more of this...

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...which is nice
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ninja10 @ Sep 21 2009, 09:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>something else to think about is way do Susuki still run a GSXR 750 and are the only manufactureer to do so? could we see 750s back.

suzuki run a 750 for the same reasons that ducati only run v-twin engines in their road bikes...history.
the first gsx-r that suzuki made was a 750 and they have said that although there are no major racing series that it can run in, they will continue to make it as long as demand is there. the 750 is a nice balance, drawing from the 600s flickability and some of the 1000s power. i would love to see the zx-7rs and r7s back, they were awesome bikes and would be even moreso with all the new tech floating around now.

[/nostalgia-mode]

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Sep 21 2009, 08:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>then there would be TWO motorbike race series running ... bikes.

sorry for always commenting on your posts, but i think im falling in love here somehow!
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i dont know:

here in germany U have a bigger market for the 1000 cc bikes than for the 600 cc (streetrace)bikes. and the costs are not that bad.

the factorys build what the customer wants...

the characteristic of a modern 1000 cc bike is a bike that lets U throw it into the corners like a 250cc with the torque of a 800 cc...the charactersistic the customer wants is NOT torque from the bottom of RPM, even if its a 1000 cc!!! they want RPM...racestyle. its defenitely true! i own a zx10r and the first gear e.g. is transmitted REALLY loooooong . other racebikes same game. an 800 cc bike wouldnt be any more worth of buying than an actual 1000cc and like i said: they build what customer wants!

if I buy a 800cc => there are already good 750 cc bikes....so why develop 800 cc engines?

i dont believe in it.

1000 cc will stay. here and there! my opinion...
 
Its possible lex. But the Jap manufactures would have alot of retooling to make 800cc. I don't think they would do this for the sake of racing. The market is there for 600 & 1000s. If they came out with 800 (like they all use to back when they all made 750, then one displacement would have to be scrapped, and I don't see them scrapping either 600 or 1000s.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PASSI @ Sep 21 2009, 11:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>sorry for always commenting on your posts, but i think im falling in love here somehow!
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i dont know:

here in germany U have a bigger market for the 1000 cc bikes than for the 600 cc (streetrace)bikes. and the costs are not that bad.

the factorys build what the customer wants...

the characteristic of a modern 1000 cc bike is a bike that lets U throw it into the corners like a 250cc with the torque of a 800 cc...the charactersistic the customer wants is NOT torque from the bottom of RPM, even if its a 1000 cc!!! they want RPM...racestyle. its defenitely true! i own a zx10r and the first gear e.g. is transmitted REALLY loooooong . other racebikes same game. an 800 cc bike wouldnt be any more worth of buying than an actual 1000cc and like i said: they build what customer wants!

if I buy a 800cc => there are already good 750 cc bikes....so why develop 800 cc engines?

i dont believe in it.

1000 cc will stay. here and there! my opinion...

IF they develop 800cc superbikes, they will use MotoGP to drive sales. I think they might abandon the 1000cc SBK concept altogether and move back towards a displacement that the Japanese always thought was more appropriate for SBK road use (750cc).

The Japanese have a history of being sensitive to the performance of road going vehicles. They decided to limit their supercars to 276hp in 1989 b/c they thought that was an appropriate amount of power for a road going sportscar.

They don't have a strong enough hold over the luxury and supercar markets to impose their will, but they definitely have a strong enough hold over the global sportbike market to do almost whatever they want. BMW, Ducati, and Aprilia combined don't even have the same global market share as lowly Kawasaki.

It will be interesting to see what happens. Personally, I think the Japanese are tired of playing with literbikes at any level whether it's GP, WSBK, the test track, or the factory floor. I don't really think they wanted to race literbikes in the first place.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Sep 22 2009, 06:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Personally, I think the Japanese are tired of playing with literbikes at any level whether it's GP, WSBK, the test track, or the factory floor. I don't really think they wanted to race literbikes in the first place.

garde A retardation right there
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Sep 23 2009, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>garde A retardation right there
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Just think about what you know.

When WSBK switched to 1000cc SBKs the manufacturers built a bike to compete, but they didn't show up to race it.

If you remember Burgess said about the initial 990 proposal, the manufacturers were shocked because they knew they could make bikes with 250hp without much development. Kato died and the manufacturers almost immediately used the tragedy to reduce capacity to 800cc.

They raced prototype liter bikes for a little over 1 season, before they decided they were too dangerous.

They were heavily invested in racing literbikes for 1 year. That's it. They built them because the racing series told them they had to if they wanted to continue racing.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Sep 23 2009, 01:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>IF they develop 800cc superbikes, they will use MotoGP to drive sales. I think they might abandon the 1000cc SBK concept altogether and move back towards a displacement that the Japanese always thought was more appropriate for SBK road use (750cc).

The Japanese have a history of being sensitive to the performance of road going vehicles. They decided to limit their supercars to 276hp in 1989 b/c they thought that was an appropriate amount of power for a road going sportscar.

They don't have a strong enough hold over the luxury and supercar markets to impose their will, but they definitely have a strong enough hold over the global sportbike market to do almost whatever they want. BMW, Ducati, and Aprilia combined don't even have the same global market share as lowly Kawasaki.

It will be interesting to see what happens. Personally, I think the Japanese are tired of playing with literbikes at any level whether it's GP, WSBK, the test track, or the factory floor. I don't really think they wanted to race literbikes in the first place.

In lex's parallel bizarro world we live in a communistic plan economy where the powers decide what we want and need and send the production orders to the manufacturers.

In the real world where all the manufacturers are facing red numbers they would just LOVE if we bought a few extra high tech, high priced 1000cc sports bikes.

Btw. The japanese has been cheating that hp limit for ever.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Sep 23 2009, 04:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just think about what you know.

When WSBK switched to 1000cc SBKs the manufacturers built a bike to compete, but they didn't show up to race it.

If you remember Burgess said about the initial 990 proposal, the manufacturers were shocked because they knew they could make bikes with 250hp without much development. Kato died and the manufacturers almost immediately used the tragedy to reduce capacity to 800cc.

They raced prototype liter bikes for a little over 1 season, before they decided they were too dangerous.

They were heavily invested in racing literbikes for 1 year. That's it. They built them because the racing series told them they had to if they wanted to continue racing.


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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Sep 24 2009, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>8273:ging_retard.jpg]


how the .... do u find these pics? do these people do this .... to them selves to get famous?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Sep 24 2009, 06:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>8273:ging_retard.jpg]
Aaaahaha. Have you seen my baseball?

That pic sums this topic up well, no offense lex. I think passi summed it up well with " the people want 1000cc bikes." We the consumer will not take to the 800cc bike, especially here in america where no one really watches motogp or wsbk. They would .... themselves when they go to the dealership to find 800cc bikes. People take engine displacement like skill level here in the midwest, 600's for beginners and 1000's plus are for advance riders. People want more horsepower and more top speed they not going to downgrade, they will just buy used. Who am I kidding, as long as you can extend the swing arm the midwest will buy it. ....... ridiculous y'all should see the amount of morons that extend their swings around here. Why just yesterday I saw a stock cbr f3 with an extended swing arm. I almost ran that ...... off the road just to put his poor bike out of misery.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Sep 24 2009, 10:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Aaaahaha. Have you seen my baseball?

That pic sums this topic up well, no offense lex. I think passi summed it up well with " the people want 1000cc bikes." We the consumer will not take to the 800cc bike, especially here in america where no one really watches motogp or wsbk. They would .... themselves when they go to the dealership to find 800cc bikes. People take engine displacement like skill level here in the midwest, 600's for beginners and 1000's plus are for advance riders. People want more horsepower and more top speed they not going to downgrade, they will just buy used. Who am I kidding, as long as you can extend the swing arm the midwest will buy it. ....... ridiculous y'all should see the amount of morons that extend their swings around here. Why just yesterday I saw a stock cbr f3 with an extended swing arm. I almost ran that ...... off the road just to put his poor bike out of misery.
I'm not sure if this is common in Europe or other areas of the world, but extended swing arms are just the way they sound, maybe Mdub can find a pic of one and post it. Anyways, they are for drag racing to help keep the front of the bike down during acceleration. Really ..... up the looks and handling of a sport bike and makes it very one dimensional, and like Mdub said most people that set their bikes up this way are idiots and don't know how to ride.
 
You're right.. MotoGP is not going back to the 990's. They're planning to make it an even 1,000 this time around.
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