MotoGP New rules 2013. One bike + 5 engines max & Less mechanics

Jumkie · Mar 26, 2012

povol said:
Unfortunately, its insurance that has squashed sport bike sales, ...

Well, we agree on something.

povol said:
For today that is true, but the proposed changes for 2013 and beyond are without a doubt geared at slowing down factory Moto GP bikes. More weight,less revs, steel brakes, less engines etc etc etc.

Perhaps, but here is a bit of food for thought. What if they lift the fuel limit? (Which 'if' they were really serious about cost savings, that's what they would eliminate). Ceramic breaks are very expensive, but the Wsbk steel breaks stop bikes that are heavier and almost as fast (if we are to believe the speed trap speed recently published, even fast). And what if to compensate, Dorna gives the ok for Bridgestone to develop a tire that will allow for higher performance (which today is the real limiting factor to lap time).

Mental Anarchist · Mar 26, 2012

Jumkie said:
The only thing you have "consistently championed" is to blame every possible thing on Rossi and claimed its all been detrimental to Stoner. You have blamed the financial woes on GP and have laid it at the feet of Valentino. I don't think there is anything you have not blamed on Rossi while in the same breath shown how this somehow has repressed Stoner, your spots are always on display. I see through you. Dogs balls, remember?

Btw, how is your Stoner tire conspiracy going these days? Is Dorna/Bridgestone still sabotaging him?

Boring...

mylexicon · Mar 26, 2012

Beef Supreme said:
But is that their primary market for high-end sportbikes? In the U.S., the 1% has been doing very, very well despite downturns, and happily snaps up halo models like S1000RRs and RSV4s. If Honda re-introduces a V4 superbike, the waiting list will be months-long by the end of the first day.

I agree that for us in coach, paying more than $10K for a two-wheeled toy is painful (especially now without easy credit), and that the technology curve will have to flatten in order to make sportbikes more affordable, but I think the market for over-the-top homologation specials is quite healthy.

Both markets exist so why would they choose to recognize only one? If you were to pick a series to market high-end production bikes to wealthy clients, what series would you pick? If you had to use a series to sell affordable, efficiently-produced performance to the middle class, what series would you use? If the series are combined, they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of marketing those concepts to two completely different markets.

Performance and efficiency are mutually exclusive, and attempts to marry them are unwise, imo. People say that efficiency and performance are practically the same b/c maximizing power means maximizing the efficiency of the charge and maximizing straightline speed means minimizing drag. It's like a man saying that he knows the secrets of womanhood b/c his body produces a trace amount of estrogen--a grain of truth with very limited application.

For all intents and purposes, the efficiency of production vehicles (manufacturing, fuel-economy, distribution, etc) are not compatible with performance (brand, status, lap times, horsepower, etc). Honda CR-Z. What? 21L MotoGP. Why? All-CRT MotoGP formula. Huh? Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid. Are you serious? For vintage racing enthusiasts, FIA Group 5 & 6 rules after the changes between 1968 and 1970. Was someone drunk? Combining WSBK and GP into a single formula. Has the world gone mad?

Production efficiency and outright raw performance don't go. Oil and water. If you shake them hard enough with economic uncertainty and global credit crises, it looks like a delicious salad dressing. Give it an hour and they will return to oil and water. The FIM and the MSMA have lost the concept of production and prototype bikes. They have different cost drivers. The component sophistication and manufacturing techniques drives costs in the production market. In GP, the cost driver is the fuel restriction and a perverse system of diminishing marginal returns that allows cubic dollars to always win.

beefsupreme · Mar 26, 2012

mylexicon said:
Oil and water. If you shake them hard enough with economic uncertainty and global credit crises, it looks like a delicious salad dressing. Give it an hour and they will return to oil and water.

Hey, don't type with your mouth full.

An irony that occurs to me reading your post is that while Honda is willing to keep MotoGP expensive, it wants to keep the costs of street bikes down.

mylexicon · Mar 26, 2012

povol said:
200 hp, fully adjustable suspensions, world class braking systems, unheard of reliability for 14k. The bikes are a steal at those prices.

Don't let the sales numbers and macroeconomic forces derail your fantasy world.

Furthermore, insurance is not the problem. Most insurance companies do not offer collision anymore so insurance costs about $200 a year. Lack of collision coverage has made credit impossible, but that is a matter of purchasing power not cost overrun. The problems can be solved in many ways, like stricter licensing, more efficient manufacturing and design, streamlined ownership costs, and improved standard crash protection (possibly even privately administered crash standards?).

A value-oriented sales pitch does not make the list of possible solutions. Sportbikes aren't a value-oriented purchase so I am bewildered that you would play that card in the first place. You'd only use a value pitch on someone who'd already committed to a 5 digit splurge. Tiny demographic, and judging by the economic incompetence of governments in developed countries, splurging is likely to happen at severely depressed price points.

There is no reason for the sportbike lineup to carry the exorbitant costs it carries. Manufacturing inefficiency and economic exposure are the reason. Unacceptable.

Talpa · Mar 26, 2012

cliché guevara said:
, classic talpa

So you agree with Mental that Motogp was contrived throughout the 990 era, just a wicked game controlled by the puppet master one Valentino Rossi............

My issue is with absolutely ridiculous comments on the series and the reasons for the problems that are associated with it, which are usually made with a underlining derogatory rant against the sports most successful and popular rider, and the persecution of his competition, or lack of. Inept point of views on what happened on track throughout the 990 era, I would like to see the evidence of Rossi just cruising around at 8/10s, except for the last few laps during all of those victories? Please show us, please also show us the evidence of how the caliber of rider has increased so majorly recently, and how the competition with so many world champions present was so inferior back then. Please demonstrate how the riders of today require so much more skill to pilot these electronically aided machines on tyres that do not go off during a race.........explain to me how that skill is so superior to a rider dealing with a 500 or a 990......and then go on to explain to me how and why, as we have such a golden age of racing with the most talented groups of riders providing the best show, the fans and their money are switching off and walking away?

And as for expanding revenues in a world where the current financial situation continues to be critical, maybe you and Mental should go and help the Factory Yamaha marketing team? Surely the factory Yamaha team who have two very popular world champions in their garage and the best record of the modern era should have no problem finding a major sponsor, they clearly do not know what they are doing and you guys need to go and help them

Dorna? Yes once you two are finished with Yamaha you need to then go and help Dorna sports, their marketing team also clearly do not know what they are doing, they need to take their current 'TT' style of racing into Asia and expand their revenues, how long do you guys thing that Asian market would tune into the Casey's Stoner/Jorge Lorenzo style laser gyro guided metronomic lap show? Given the expense of trying to establish a market in these regions, what are your predicted outcomes for expanded revenues for teams with the current 'product' that Dorna has to offer? How and why will the results differ from their already established market in Europe? How would you plan on overcoming popular action packed sports with cultural roots in these regions like 'Kickboxing' and established giants which can be played in the streets like Football, Cricket (sub-Continent) and Basketball etc? Maybe just focus on China perhaps? Oh wait, already been there and no one showed up..........

I'll be happy to give you guys a reference when you apply for the job

Everyone knows, including Dorna finally, that they have an inferior product at present which has been created by the MSMA-taking such an inferior product into difficult markets in these already tight times would be borderline insane and could potentially ruin any chance of establishing a 'real' fan-base in these regions in the future. The bikes are ridiculously 'over engineered' and the riders do not have enough control, the racing is processional and the result can be predicted after FP1, it doesn't take a genius to work this out and the fans that they have retained will not be around for too much longer if they do not radically alter things, let alone searching for new frontiers while you are pedaling 'Robot Wars'. The blame is with management and rule makers in this case, it is not the fault of Valentino Rossi, Max Biaggi, Sete Gibernau, Casey Stoner, Dani Pedroas or Jorge Lorenzo

Having said this I think most of these proposed new regs are just trying to circumvent their big three major issues of which they can't seem to fix at present - Control tyre - Engine limit - Fuel limit. Limiting teams to resources could potentially jumble things up a bit with crashes during the race weekend, but surely less-restriction with a ban on a lot of electronics must be cheaper, more attractive and fairer in the long run..........

mylexicon · Mar 26, 2012

Beef Supreme said:
Hey, don't type with your mouth full. An irony that occurs to me reading your post is that while Honda is willing to keep MotoGP expensive, it wants to keep the costs of street bikes down.

I know. It pains me. The company that best understands motorcycling believes that they are the only people worthy of profiting from motorcycling. When people are that good and that bad, you can only be repulsed by them; yet you never lose hope that they will get their act together. Honda have been obstinately defiant for decades. It has given them everything they have, and it has cost them a great deal. The reliable I4 built their company (car and bike). Their refusal to embrace turbocharging, V8s, and hybridization is jeopardizing the existence of their company. From visionaries to deadwood. As Valentino once said, Ducati are very much the same. He is feeling the effects, but what if he had never tried it?

BTW, nice observation. If people don't realize that I share Honda's vision for the motorcycle marketplace, no one can understand why I am so repulsed by their constant failure to make it happen.

cliche guevara · Mar 26, 2012

Talpa said:
So you agree with Mental that Motogp was contrived throughout the 990 era, just a wicked game controlled by the puppet master one Valentino Rossi............

not contrived, but except for the occasional good race the championship battle has been quite boring for a couple of years back then. certainly not solely because rossi had the best material but mainly because the other riders of that era were well below his level.who were the great guys back then?biaggi,gibernau,capirossi,barros.if youwatch races like assen 2002 just to name one example you will see exactly what people mean when they talk about rossi being able to hold back.

did not read the rest, way too long man.

michaelm · Mar 26, 2012

Talpa said:
So you agree with Mental that Motogp was contrived throughout the 990 era, just a wicked game controlled by the puppet master one Valentino Rossi............

My issue is with absolutely ridiculous comments on the series and the reasons for the problems that are associated with it, which are usually made with a underlining derogatory rant against the sports most successful and popular rider, and the persecution of his competition, or lack of. Inept point of views on what happened on track throughout the 990 era, I would like to see the evidence of Rossi just cruising around at 8/10s, except for the last few laps during all of those victories? Please show us, please also show us the evidence of how the caliber of rider has increased so majorly recently, and how the competition with so many world champions present was so inferior back then. Please demonstrate how the riders of today require so much more skill to pilot these electronically aided machines on tyres that do not go off during a race.........explain to me how that skill is so superior to a rider dealing with a 500 or a 990......and then go on to explain to me how and why, as we have such a golden age of racing with the most talented groups of riders providing the best show, the fans and their money are switching off and walking away?

And as for expanding revenues in a world where the current financial situation continues to be critical, maybe you and Mental should go and help the Factory Yamaha marketing team? Surely the factory Yamaha team who have two very popular world champions in their garage and the best record of the modern era should have no problem finding a major sponsor, they clearly do not know what they are doing and you guys need to go and help them

Dorna? Yes once you two are finished with Yamaha you need to then go and help Dorna sports, their marketing team also clearly do not know what they are doing, they need to take their current 'TT' style of racing into Asia and expand their revenues, how long do you guys thing that Asian market would tune into the Casey's Stoner/Jorge Lorenzo style laser gyro guided metronomic lap show? Given the expense of trying to establish a market in these regions, what are your predicted outcomes for expanded revenues for teams with the current 'product' that Dorna has to offer? How and why will the results differ from their already established market in Europe? How would you plan on overcoming popular action packed sports with cultural roots in these regions like 'Kickboxing' and established giants which can be played in the streets like Football, Cricket (sub-Continent) and Basketball etc? Maybe just focus on China perhaps? Oh wait, already been there and no one showed up..........

I'll be happy to give you guys a reference when you apply for the job

Everyone knows, including Dorna finally, that they have an inferior product at present which has been created by the MSMA-taking such an inferior product into difficult markets in these already tight times would be borderline insane and could potentially ruin any chance of establishing a 'real' fan-base in these regions in the future. The bikes are ridiculously 'over engineered' and the riders do not have enough control, the racing is processional and the result can be predicted after FP1, it doesn't take a genius to work this out and the fans that they have retained will not be around for too much longer if they do not radically alter things, let alone searching for new frontiers while you are pedaling 'Robot Wars'. The blame is with management and rule makers in this case, it is not the fault of Valentino Rossi, Max Biaggi, Sete Gibernau, Casey Stoner, Dani Pedroas or Jorge Lorenzo

Having said this I think most of these proposed new regs are just trying to circumvent their big three major issues of which they can't seem to fix at present - Control tyre - Engine limit - Fuel limit. Limiting teams to resources could potentially jumble things up a bit with crashes during the race weekend, but surely less-restriction with a ban on a lot of electronics must be cheaper, more attractive and fairer in the long run..........

First off, good to see you posting, even I don't want to see nothing but paeans of praise to casey stoner.

I don't absolve dorna as you and others seem wont to do at present though. They and not the msma are specifically responsible for at least the control tyre rule, a major factor in the decline of ducati and the demise of suzuki and kawasaki. They are accountants, and I can tell you from knowing people involved in major enterprises that you can't let accountants decide strategy, or they will cost-cut a business to nothing. As someone has said on another site, can you recall any promotional initiatives by dorna to grow the sport at all? They are good at extracting sanctioning fees ( "new markets" seem to depend on the availability of these from often non-democratic governments), and at getting you tube videos which probably do promote the sport for free withdrawn rapidly. The latter annoys me and I am always a motogp.com subscriber; perhaps they could focus their cost cutting on their internet surveillance team, which must involve a large number of staff.

I don't agree with quite a lot of mental's rossi stuff, but I do think he has a point about both dorna and the manufacturers riding the rossi gravy train and leaving the promotion of the sport to him, and also assuming that the increased revenues substantially due to his appeal beyond the traditional limited audience of the sport were permanent, which is far from a criticism of rossi.

I think very few would consider the 800 formula to be superior to the 990 formula either. The fact remains though that it involved one year of spectacularly close racing and 4 years of dominance similar to stoner's in 2011, and the preference of some for that formula would seem likely to involve the "right" rider winning, just as defenders of the 800 formula are often stoner fans. You would seem to be belittling stoner's and lorenzo's achievements in the 800 formula while simultaneously complaining about the belittling of rossi's achievements in the 990 formula, btw.

Stoner has his faults, but a propensity for boring metronomic laps is not among them (see corinthian's post about his wife's reaction on the jerez test thread), and his success in the 800 formula would seem substantially related to his ability to "cheat"/transcend the electronics.

Mental Anarchist · Mar 26, 2012

Talpa said:
it is not the fault of Valentino Rossi, Max Biaggi, Sete Gibernau, Casey Stoner, Dani Pedroas or Jorge Lorenzo

Absolutely correct.

The rest of your rant was without a point.

I will break it down to a basic level for you.

Europe is ....... MotoGP has been Euro centric for way to long. Europe has no money for MotoGP.

You can not make new markets overnight. Whilst riding the Euro wave through the 2000's Dorna failed to put in the effort to begin and grow new markets because it was easy to stay Euro. Now Euro economies are ...... they have no revenues to expand and good teams can't get sponsorship so Dorna's only answer is to cut costs and this is ruining the sport.

Lin Jarvis, Factory Yamaha Team, is out there trying to generate sponsorship and he is seeing first hand the result of Dorna being asleep at the bars for over a decade. He is saying that if they want to generate revenue growth they need to expand to economies that are in double digit growth rather than continue to focus on those that are bankrupt.

I hope this is not too intellectual for your pea brain.

BarryMachine · Mar 26, 2012

There were a few years back then when MGP appeared t be just a Euro Championship.

WSBK with Edwards and Bayliss reigned supreme for many.

What did MGP do? They facilitated the purchase of Bayliss and Edwards.

GP around the Biaggi, Rossi, Gibbernau, Capi era was lame ........

It was the biggest scam to watch 990's running around with 500's and call it a World Gp seris as well. Especially the first year of 990's.

It was crap.

Mental Anarchist · Mar 26, 2012

michaelm said:
I don't agree with quite a lot of mental's rossi stuff, but I do think he has a point about both dorna and the manufacturers riding the rossi gravy train and leaving the promotion of the sport to him, and also assuming that the increased revenues substantially due to his appeal beyond the traditional limited audience of the sport were permanent, which is far from a criticism of rossi.

This is right. It has never been Rossi's responsibility to build the MotoGP Brand. Rossi's responsibility has been to build HIS Brand. He has done this unbelievably successfully. It has allowed him to get rich, get top equipment and win MANY WC's. I applaud him and his abilities and he is to be held up as the best case study for athlete's who want to mimic his success.

The problem is with DORNA. I say again, the problem is with DORNA. They FAILED to build their Brand in conjunction. They FAILED to use the revenues to expand the series. They FAILED to look down the road to when Rossi would not bring in the viewers/fans and sponsors that he had been.

Dorna's governance of MotoGP is a text book case study in how to completely fail to run a long term business strategy.

povol · Mar 26, 2012

mylexicon said:
Don't let the sales numbers and macroeconomic forces derail your fantasy world.

Furthermore, insurance is not the problem. Most insurance companies do not offer collision anymore so insurance costs about $200 a year. Lack of collision coverage has made credit impossible, but that is a matter of purchasing power not cost overrun. The problems can be solved in many ways, like stricter licensing, more efficient manufacturing and design, streamlined ownership costs, and improved standard crash protection (possibly even privately administered crash standards?).

A value-oriented sales pitch does not make the list of possible solutions. Sportbikes aren't a value-oriented purchase so I am bewildered that you would play that card in the first place. You'd only use a value pitch on someone who'd already committed to a 5 digit splurge. Tiny demographic, and judging by the economic incompetence of governments in developed countries, splurging is likely to happen at severely depressed price points.

There is no reason for the sportbike lineup to carry the exorbitant costs it carries. Manufacturing inefficiency and economic exposure are the reason. Unacceptable.

Do you even bother to read what you write. I jokingly called you Sybill a while back because you seem to be 2 different people working both sides of the fence.

You say insurance isnt a problem, yet before you could take a breath, you deduce that lack of insurance options has made credit impossible. That is a problem wouldnt you say when it comes to getting Johnny Squid to buy a new sport bike. I have State Farm, and they offer me full coverage, but its my understanding that i was grandfathered in, that they are not taking on new policies for sportbikes.I cant say that i blame them. If you find a company that will write full coverage and your under 30 yearls old the premiums are astronomical, more than the bike payment itself. So yes, insurance is a problem

beefsupreme · Mar 26, 2012

mylexicon said:
If people don't realize that I share Honda's vision for the motorcycle marketplace, no one can understand why I am so repulsed by their constant failure to make it happen.

Partial to the Big H myself, and was really disappointed about their underhanded maneuvers regarding the minimum weight vote.

mylexicon · Mar 26, 2012

povol said:
Do you even bother to read what you write. I jokingly called you Sybill a while back because you seem to be 2 different people working both sides of the fence.

You say insurance isnt a problem, yet before you could take a breath, you deduce that lack of insurance options has made credit impossible. That is a problem wouldnt you say when it comes to getting Johnny Squid to buy a new sport bike. I have State Farm, and they offer me full coverage, but its my understanding that i was grandfathered in, that they are not taking on new policies for sportbikes.I cant say that i blame them. If you find a company that will write full coverage and your under 30 yearls old the premiums are astronomical, more than the bike payment itself. So yes, insurance is a problem

We have been discussing cost of production, distribution, and ownership since we got off on the cost tangent. Insurance no longer affects most riders b/c collision insurance is basically unavailable. I threw you a bone by reminding you that lack of collision insurance drives down the availability of credit, thus, purchasing power (a tangential point). You respond by criticizing me for constructing counterpoint for you. I suppose I could always flame you

Talpa · Mar 26, 2012

michaelm said:
First off, good to see you posting, even I don't want to see nothing but paeans of praise to casey stoner.

I don't absolve dorna as you and others seem wont to do at present though. They and not the msma are specifically responsible for at least the control tyre rule, a major factor in the decline of ducati and the demise of suzuki and kawasaki. They are accountants, and I can tell you from knowing people involved in major enterprises that you can't let accountants decide strategy, or they will cost-cut a business to nothing. As someone has said on another site, can you recall any promotional initiatives by dorna to grow the sport at all? They are good at extracting sanctioning fees ( "new markets" seem to depend on the availability of these from often non-democratic governments), and at getting you tube videos which probably do promote the sport for free withdrawn rapidly. The latter annoys me and I am always a motogp.com subscriber; perhaps they could focus their cost cutting on their internet surveillance team, which must involve a large number of staff.

I don't agree with quite a lot of mental's rossi stuff, but I do think he has a point about both dorna and the manufacturers riding the rossi gravy train and leaving the promotion of the sport to him, and also assuming that the increased revenues substantially due to his appeal beyond the traditional limited audience of the sport were permanent, which is far from a criticism of rossi.

I think very few would consider the 800 formula to be superior to the 990 formula either. The fact remains though that it involved one year of spectacularly close racing and 4 years of dominance similar to stoner's in 2011, and the preference of some for that formula would seem likely to involve the "right" rider winning, just as defenders of the 800 formula are often stoner fans. You would seem to be belittling stoner's and lorenzo's achievements in the 800 formula while simultaneously complaining about the belittling of rossi's achievements in the 990 formula, btw.

Stoner has his faults, but a propensity for boring metronomic laps is not among them (see corinthian's post about his wife's reaction on the jerez test thread), and his success in the 800 formula would seem substantially related to his ability to "cheat"/transcend the electronics.

Yes certainly, I'm not saying that Dorna has not ridden the Rossi train, they would have been mad not too, he brought immense interest in the series which in turn brought many more dollars, particularly during and after 2004 and he is the reason why the current riders are as rich as they are. This does not mean that his results were contrived and that in the 990 era he rode around at 8/10s against inferior competition than exists today. My point is that the series and the machines and rubber that are/is currently being used is so far removed from the 990 era its crazy to make such assumptions-which are mostly done to discredit Rossi and hype Stoner.

With the current evidence we have on the state of Yamaha's new electronics package, how can one accurately assume that these current riders are head and shoulders above those who proceeded them?

I can't comment on Dorna's current promotional strategies, and the costs involved, however I'm sure the money being spent is still large and I'm also sure they are not kidding themselves in that they know that a good percentage of the viewers and race day fans at present are there just seeing how Rossi goes with the Duck. But moving forward into new markets whilst the series is still trying to establish a technical base and the racing is not close, jaw dropping or entertaining, is suicide. Europe may be in trouble, but is there really that much greener grass elsewhere? The cost and risk involved with searching is pointless until the regs are fairly adjusted, and there is some transparency in what is being sold.

Every punter knows that the bikes are over-regulated and have way too many rider aids, the common phrase is 'its just like F1 was a few years back', Berni has managed to pull F1 a fair way out of the ....-at least F1 had more than two prominent manufacturers participating and in with a shot of winning, time for Ezy to go a chat with him-No Matter the cost!

Gaz · Mar 27, 2012

Mental Anarchist said:
This is right. It has never been Rossi's responsibility to build the MotoGP Brand. Rossi's responsibility has been to build HIS Brand. He has done this unbelievably successfully. It has allowed him to get rich, get top equipment and win MANY WC's. I applaud him and his abilities and he is to be held up as the best case study for athlete's who want to mimic his success.

The problem is with DORNA. I say again, the problem is with DORNA. They FAILED to build their Brand in conjunction. They FAILED to use the revenues to expand the series. They FAILED to look down the road to when Rossi would not bring in the viewers/fans and sponsors that he had been.

Dorna's governance of MotoGP is a text book case study in how to completely fail to run a long term business strategy.

Gotta agree Mental and if that means I become a NeoBopper or whatever the latest term is than so be it, but your post here is pretty much the crux of it as I see it.

Shortsighted management bought about by the blindness caused by the Rossi gravy train (and to the Rossi fans, that is no criticism at all) on which DORNA have been pinning themselves. To me, DORNA failed to look beyond Rossi and have failed miserably to plan for the 'post-Rossi' era in any way, shape or form be that financially plan or future growth plan.

Certainly as Talpa mentions the GFC has made things extremely difficult, as have the disasters of the earthquakes in Japan that have manifested an additional drain on the world financially, but to not look at Asia as a market is bordering on business suicide. All businesses today are focussing on Asia as a logical place to grow as the region is the world's largest growing economy and as such the push to Asia needs to start and fast so that MGP can hopefully gain a foothold before some other business.

But sadly I feel we are stuck for the time being with a push to reduce costs alone with no forward thought given to growing the financial pool. Given (to me at least) that this was an area where Rossi excelled in introducing new supporters to the sport (we are talking business supporters) it goes to reason that the market does indeed exist for growth, just the manner needs to be determined.

Personally to me, Rossi shares no blame in any way and should instead be recognised (and this is without coloured glasses) as a pioneer in terms of growth potential (as he has shown many positives) and it would be negligent of DORNA to to both use what Rossi has done and grow on it.

Now, that said, as to the proposed rule changes it is yet more grasping at straws by DORNA who continue to try to stamp authority on what appears at times to be a rabble.

Yes, we all agree that costs must reduce in order to bring more participation into the sport, that is a given but do we all believe that the costs will stay low?

CRT (as the current example) will in years ahead continue to grow in terms of technology that is applied to making the machines competitive and as such the costs will continue to rise accordingly until we are back where we started (as after all, it is cyclical), and no Jums that is not anti-CRT but simply saying that with development comes cost.

Times are interesting and it will be consuming many hours and brain cells as we all wonder about the what if's of the situations but I do genuinely hope that throughout the year we see positive growth and not further or ongoing negativity about the sport.

Gaz

Mr Squiggle · Mar 27, 2012

Mental Anarchist said:
This is right. It has never been Rossi's responsibility to build the MotoGP Brand. Rossi's responsibility has been to build HIS Brand. He has done this unbelievably successfully. It has allowed him to get rich, get top equipment and win MANY WC's. I applaud him and his abilities and he is to be held up as the best case study for athlete's who want to mimic his success.

The problem is with DORNA. I say again, the problem is with DORNA. They FAILED to build their Brand in conjunction. They FAILED to use the revenues to expand the series. They FAILED to look down the road to when Rossi would not bring in the viewers/fans and sponsors that he had been.

Dorna's governance of MotoGP is a text book case study in how to completely fail to run a long term business strategy.

Fucken A bro.....

michaelm · Mar 27, 2012

Talpa said:
Yes certainly, I'm not saying that Dorna has not ridden the Rossi train, they would have been mad not too, he brought immense interest in the series which in turn brought many more dollars, particularly during and after 2004 and he is the reason why the current riders are as rich as they are. This does not mean that his results were contrived and that in the 990 era he rode around at 8/10s against inferior competition than exists today. My point is that the series and the machines and rubber that are/is currently being used is so far removed from the 990 era its crazy to make such assumptions-which are mostly done to discredit Rossi and hype Stoner.

With the current evidence we have on the state of Yamaha's new electronics package, how can one accurately assume that these current riders are head and shoulders above those who proceeded them?

There was a great deal of discrediting of other people's championships, particularly hayden's 2006 championship and stoner's 2007 championship, before there was much discrediting of any of rossi's from my point of view, but I would not necessarily argue against the balance having now been redressed.

All championships should be credited as a starting point imo, and 7 by any criterion is better than 2, particularly given that 2 of the 7 were against most of the current opposition. All champions can only win against the opposition on the grid at the time, and on the equipment/under the formula then current, so while I don't think it is valid to detract from championships on the basis of the perceived quality of the opposition, nor is it imo to do so on the basis of the equipment being "less difficult"; apart from anything else if you do the latter the logical corollary would seem to be to discount vale's in comparison with when the 500s were cruder, or with the 50s and 60s guys on cookie cutter tyres with no brakes.

I still think dorna's vision has been short term. They should have tried in India or Indonesia or wherever when times were good and a couple of loss making venues could be supported if necessary for a time, rather than trying to maximise short term returns with so many Iberian rounds, rich sanctioning fees from oil sheiks in countries with no population, etc. The most successful motorsport in the world, arguably more so than F1, is nascar; whilst not my ideal as a motorsport, it is more or less a family business where longterm branding has occurred.

I was rather hopeful from the bike racing point of view that ducati would be bought by Mahindra; whilst they might not have have offered as much from the technical view point in the short term, they have already demonstrated an interest in bike racing which VW/Porsche may not have, and offered an immense opportunity for expanding the market/appeal of the sport imo.

mylexicon · Mar 27, 2012

Mental Anarchist said:
This is right. It has never been Rossi's responsibility to build the MotoGP Brand. Rossi's responsibility has been to build HIS Brand. He has done this unbelievably successfully. It has allowed him to get rich, get top equipment and win MANY WC's. I applaud him and his abilities and he is to be held up as the best case study for athlete's who want to mimic his success.

The problem is with DORNA. I say again, the problem is with DORNA. They FAILED to build their Brand in conjunction. They FAILED to use the revenues to expand the series. They FAILED to look down the road to when Rossi would not bring in the viewers/fans and sponsors that he had been.

Dorna's governance of MotoGP is a text book case study in how to completely fail to run a long term business strategy.

Compare what Dorna have done since MotoGP with what the MSMA have done.

Dorna has taken MotoGP to new markets, or they scheduled MotoGP to get into new markets. New TV deals have been done, including a deal with BBC. First night GP ever. They did lose China, but so has every other series that ever tried to sell racing to the Chinese market.

The MSMA have lost half their members (Aprilia, Suzuki, Kawasaki). They have enraged the fans with their bad formulas. Lease costs have quadrupled, and the MSMA never made good on their promise to run 4 bikes a piece. The races are perceived to be (rightly or wrongly, doesn't really matter) less entertaining than some of the belters at the end of the 500cc era or 990cc era.

Dorna could do a better job, but they are fighting an uphill battle against the manufacturers and EU regulators who forced the sale of their commercial rights. As far as their brand is concerned, Dorna want 24L 1000cc spec-ECU, which isn't exactly unpopular with the fans compared to the 21L formula. Should the brand be separate from the product? Probably, but they don't have that capability. Since they paid the fee to buy the rights from the FIM, I'm not sure they can be criticized for obsessing over the product at the expense of the brand. It is their entertainment product.

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