MotoGP: 2016 Round 06 - Gran Premio d'Italia TIM (SPOILERS)

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JPSLotus said:
Fine, let's just say Lorenzo was better on the brakes into San Donato since he wasn't running wide into the turn. Either way the point still remains, Lorenzo was better on the brakes than Rossi when it mattered. Find something else to whine about.
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Rossi went wide because he got the wrong gear (you are free not to believe him, and that's a mistake anyway; but that's it, and anyway the simple fact that Rossi immediately recovered from that mistake and caught up with Lorenzo's wheel in just half a lap, gives the lie to your entire argument of a supposed Lorenzo's superiority yesterday.

For the record, again: resisting someone on the brakes does not mean braking better than him -- it means braking equal. Try some other word trick, this one doesn't work. Or be honest for a change, and say like Michaelm: Lorenzo rode an excellent race and won, and the rest doesn't matter. I'd agree with that. :D
 
J4rn0 said:
You say Lorenzo was "outbraking" Rossi, and that says a lot about your own delusion. You outbrake someone when you pass him on the brakes; if you resist an attempted pass on the brakes, as Lorenzo did, you are braking as well as you opponent -- not "outbraking" him.

About Lorenzo I can say he has nerves of steel, but we knew that. He is difficult to beat. His race was impeccable. This said, his pace in the race arounf the 48 was good but not impressive, proof is that he had to fight Marquez in the end. I remain with my impression that Rossi had a concrete chance of beating both of them, and I don't say this of Rossi every time.
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Of course he had a chance, what people object to is "Rossi would have won". In this case, he would have had 1 in 3 chance, but he wasnt showing anything that suggested he was any more than a 1 in 3 contender. Rossi knows he cant play the old hang out behind Biaggi and Gibernau till 4-5 laps to go game. These guys are to good and Rossi will try everything he can to make a break as soon as he can like all the other riders who are beating him. He wasnt able to make that break because he wasnt able to get past Lorenzo
 
povol said:
Of course he had a chance, what people object to is "Rossi would have won". In this case, he would have had 1 in 3 chance, but he wasnt showing anything that suggested he was any more than a 1 in 3 contender. Rossi knows he cant play the old hang out behind Biaggi and Gibernau till 4-5 laps to go game. These guys are to good and Rossi will try everything he can to make a break as soon as he can like all the other riders who are beating him. He wasnt able to make that break because he wasnt able to get past Lorenzo
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Bingo.

In the old days he could afford to play games and wait till later in the race to pass.

Yesterday was not the old days where he could do that. It was in his best interest to try and make a pass early on to get into the lead and to try to get away.

He was getting next to Lorenzo before the San Donato braking zones, but Lorenzo was far better on the brakes, and was not losing any corner speed. Tough proposition to get past a guy like Lorenzo who's bike seems to get very wide under pressure.
 
moto vudu said:
I didn't forget that the changes during a race apply to all riders. However, Rossi is often quicker on worn tires than Lorenzo.

Lorenzo is on the same bike, but has different strengths and weaknesses compared to Rossi. I'll have to look at the data, but I'm guessing Rossi was faster in the first 3 sectors. When he lost time trying to overtake @ turn 1, he recovered the gap to Lorenzo quickly. Like I said earlier, Rossi mentioned yesterday that overtaking wasn't going to be easy and which is why he was happy to be on pole.
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Yes..... but none of that equals "inevitable". Words mean something. To say that it was inevitable is merely wishful thinking, as opposed to critical reasoning. Moreover given the number of races that Lorenzo has won where Rossi was multiple bike lengths back by the end of the race over the course of Rossi's return to Yamaha, the odds were not in his favor, making his chances of winning this one even less promising.
 
J4rn0 said:
Wow, that is a good definition of wishful thinking. Lorenzo was braking well, but the dance was just at the beginning. Rossi would have tried somewhere else if he couldn't pass there. Asserting that Rossi could never have passed Lorenzo is a bopper statement.
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Where did i say that.
 
Keshav said:
Yes..... but none of that equals "inevitable". Words mean something. To say that it was inevitable is merely wishful thinking, as opposed to critical reasoning. Moreover given the number of races that Lorenzo has won where Rossi was multiple bike lengths back by the end of the race over the course of Rossi's return to Yamaha, the odds were not in his favor, making his chances of winning this one even less promising.
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Rossi showed he had a very strong race pace when he was easily able to catch up to Lorenzo after going wide in turn 1. If Lorenzo could have put a gap on Rossi, he would have done so. There was still 15 laps to go when Rossi's engine failed, I believe he had a very good chance pass Lorenzo and maybe even build a small gap. This race was nothing like previous races where Lorenzo took off and built up a 2+ second lead.
 
J4rn0 said:
Wow, that is a good definition of wishful thinking. Lorenzo was braking well, but the dance was just at the beginning. Rossi would have tried somewhere else if he couldn't pass there. Asserting that Rossi could never have passed Lorenzo is a bopper statement.
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See, all the "woulda shoulda coulda" cobblers again J4rno. Why can't you admit it? Povol made a factually correct statement that for the 9 laps they were racing together on track, Lorenzo was beating Rossi something fierce on the brakes. That is inquestionably the case, so why can't you admit that?

Rossi MAY have passed him later in the race, but the fact is that for those 9 laps at least, Lorenzo had Rossi covered under brakes. You'd get some credibility back if you at least admitted that without spinning it into how Rossi was going to show Lorenzo his .... The fact is he didn't.
 
JPSLotus said:
Bingo.

In the old days he could afford to play games and wait till later in the race to pass.

Yesterday was not the old days where he could do that. It was in his best interest to try and make a pass early on to get into the lead and to try to get away.

He was getting next to Lorenzo before the San Donato braking zones, but Lorenzo was far better on the brakes, and was not losing any corner speed. Tough proposition to get past a guy like Lorenzo who's bike seems to get very wide under pressure.
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, Yep,The only time Rossi was able to show Lorenzo a wheel was because of the nature of the track. He was making his lap times on the front straight draft. Not once did he show Lorenzo a wheel anywhere on the track except for the end of the front straight
 
povol said:
They are the fastest options available at this time. While both are really good riders, they are not in the same airspace as Lorenzo and Marquez
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Add Rossi and to a lesser extent Pedrosa to that group, I can't leave Dani out even though his season is not his best by far. If he had a bit more weight he could get a better drive from the rcv imo. I agree with your take on Vinales and Iannone, and there's not much to look forward to coming up from Moto 2 , Alex Marquez will probably get a decent ride but won't do much. Same with Luthi Zarco Rins , they just don't have that extra edge. You could see that in Vale , Jorge, Dani and Marc right through their careers and there's no special one out there right now I don't think.
 
J4rn0 said:
Testing is a normal tactics used in racing, not only by Rossi. You also can use it to make your opponent believe you are going to try mainly at that corner, then will actually try more seriously somewhere else. If you think that Rossi could never pass Lorenzo, that's your own delusion... you surely have the right to have one. ;)
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No-one said he could never pass Lorenzo. This is straw man nonsense.

For you to claim Rossi was just testing is to imply that you know what was going on in Rossi's head and what he was capable of at the moment - and that is not critical reasoning. Just wishful thinking.

I doubt there's anyone on this forum who didn't anticipate, nay hope, that there would be some paint swapping between those two. Nobody here discounted the possibility. But only the Boppers seem to think that it was inevitable or that Rossi was merely proceeding according to some tactical masterplan.
 
povol said:
, Yep,The only time Rossi was able to show Lorenzo a wheel was because of the nature of the track. He was making his lap times on the front straight draft. Not once did he show Lorenzo a wheel anywhere on the track except for the end of the front straight
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Sounds like you need to watch the race again. If Rossi was only gaining time on Lorenzo on the straight, when he went wide in turn 1 he never would've closed the gap again. He was also testing lines in various corners and showed Lorenzo a wheel once or twice. He was setting up more overtaking attempts.
 
J4rn0 said:
The "might have been" are moot, agree. But Lorenzo's pace in the race was not irresisitible, and that is a fact that leaves more room for regret on Rossi's part. Other times I have been ready to say that Rossi would not have won against a really fast Lorenzo anyway, when for instance he started from 3rd row; but yesterday Lorenzo was not able to build any gap.
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michaelm said:
Iannone actually had the fastest lap of the race and was never going to win it after his start, and you can't know that Rossi wouldn't also have made an error at some stage as Povol says, he ran wide at least once before his engine blew.

JL on the other hand didn't make a single error in the race and was just as fast at the end of the race as he was at the start, and hence would seem to have had plenty of tyre left which is not always the case for him.

Bad luck for Rossi as even Jorge said, but JL himself could have done no more and deserves full credit. If MM had won he probably would have deserved even more credit, as he appeared to actually get more out of his bike than should really have been available for much of the race and lost through no error of his.
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To J4 I would say look at Mike's statement. Just because Lorenzo didn't run away at the beginning, doesn't mean he couldn't. It's perfectly possible that knowing how competitive Rossi appeared in FP and Quali - that Lorenzo made a conscious decision to run a different tactic by way of keeping Rossi at bay on the brakes and saving his tires for later in the race. Thing is, I don't assert this as being in any way self-evident. Just a theory.
 
moto vudu said:
Sounds like you need to watch the race again. If Rossi was only gaining time on Lorenzo on the straight, when he went wide in turn 1 he never would've closed the gap again. He was also testing lines in various corners and showed Lorenzo a wheel once or twice. He was setting up more overtaking attempts.
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MM caught up with JL and passed him and couldn't stay in front of him. If we are to play hypotheticals I don't think JL would have pipped Rossi on the line had Valentino been in MM's position, that was down to different bike characteristics imo, but whether he could have been in that position by making a pass stick where MM did is another question.

Of course VR had good pace and had a good chance of winning, but I agree with others that if he could have passed JL and made a break for it before his engine grenaded he would have cf the Jerez race, and any prolonged duel would likely have brought MM up to them earlier than occurred in regard to JL on his own with unpredictable consequences as has also been said. If he had already passed JL and was pulling away when the engine went then the case being argued for VR would obviously be stronger.
 
paparazzo said:
Finally, one good useful post after 66 useless ones in this thread...

Who Posted?

Total Posts: 514

User Name Posts
JPSLotus 67
Daniboy 59
Gaz 33
MdubSTYLIE 33
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As opposed to who, you who has never made a good useful post ever here?
 
Not much point in saying anything about Rossi but dnf on this occasion, we still had a fab race for first and third although I do wish the Repsol Honda's had won their respective bouts. Hope for a similar race in Catalunya without mechanical woes of course.
 
moto vudu said:
Rossi showed he had a very strong race pace when he was easily able to catch up to Lorenzo after going wide in turn 1. If Lorenzo could have put a gap on Rossi, he would have done so. There was still 15 laps to go when Rossi's engine failed, I believe he had a very good chance pass Lorenzo and maybe even build a small gap. This race was nothing like previous races where Lorenzo took off and built up a 2+ second lead.
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Fan myths have no basis in history.
 

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