Moto Gp vs Superbikes

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Racejumkie @ Oct 16 2007, 08:30 PM) [snapback]95583[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
That depends what you mean by "better". Certainly the racing competitiveness was much "better" in WSBK. Certainly the parity between manufacturers was "better" in WSBK. Certainly the tire uniformity was "better" in WSBK.

Now if you mean “better” to refer to machine, well that is a very narrow “better” and getting narrower. If you mean “better” to refer to the rider “talent” well that is certainly debatable. I think the talent among the top five riders is equal in both series, though I know you would disagree. But it’s debatable, which means that the equivalence among the riders MotoGP vs WSBK is narrow enough to be negligible, and getting narrower.
So which is "better" depends on what you mean by "better". I enjoy watching MotoGP because I don't really have anybody that I have a fan's connection with in WSBK. However, the racing is much "better" in WSBK as a whole.


When you're not spewing out pro AMA ..... Jumkie, I love your SBK defending logic!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(roger-m @ Oct 16 2007, 12:37 PM) [snapback]95585[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
not so sure about that mate. jt is yet to be seen altho my fingers are crossed. haga,biaggi and bayliss have had a shot in motogp but didnt really set the world on fire as have many other "top "wsb riders. you may say they didn't get competitive rides and thats true but ask yourself why.

Yes buddy, that's why I say it’s debatable. Considering that Toesland just barely won, and only had one more win than Bayliss, and Haga down only by two points, and Biaggi (first year rookie in SBK) had some wins and was in the hunt for the championship the entire year, even up to the last event, well then I'd say Toesland's merit of moving into GP is reflective of that pretty good competition.

Both times that Toseland has won the championship, it hasn't been far and away, which again I think says something about the competition (I'm saying they are all very good). I agree that Toesland deserves a MotoGP ride, which is a reflection of who he has had to contend with. I really don't want to get into this debate because at the end of the day it just comes down to our personal opinion. Just like some people think the best drivers in the world are in F1 (which I disagree) conversely some think the best riders in the world are in MotoGP. I think it’s a different skill set.

We have seen a picture of SBK guys going to MotoGP, but not too many MotoGP or lower GP riders going to SBK, especially during their prime. But I contend that if you were to take the top five riders of MotoGP into WSBK or say AMA, that you wouldn't see them outright win the championship. So does this mean they are not the best? Well, of course this can only be debated in the realm of speculation.

As far as Biaggi. He was a very successful GP rider both lower class and premier (consider his many podium losses to only Rossi). Now consider his success so far in WSBK. I'd say he has had good success in both (but not dominant). So this idea that GP riders are better than SBK for me is not true. They are both good based on the skill sets that favor each series. This is why I think that talent is about equal for the top riders in either series.

when was the last time there was a WSB rider who came into moto gp/500's and was a championship contender right up until the last race in his first year?
you say WSB riders are of similar talent to moto gp but there is really only evidence to prove the contrary....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BigAl @ Oct 16 2007, 03:02 PM) [snapback]95597[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
when was the last time there was a WSB rider who came into moto gp/500's and was a championship contender right up until the last race in his first year?
you say WSB riders are of similar talent to moto gp but there is really only evidence to prove the contrary....


you could flip that question around and ask when the last time a GP rider went to SBK and was competitive. I'll give you Biaggi in 07, but is there anybody else?

in fact, we all remember val 06 where bayliss beat them all.

bottom line is that you can't really compare SBK against GPs because it's apples to oranges. some guys do better at one or the other and a very few do well at both.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drumfu @ Oct 16 2007, 11:18 PM) [snapback]95599[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
you could flip that question around and ask when the last time a GP rider went to SBK and was competitive. I'll give you Biaggi in 07, but is there anybody else?

in fact, we all remember val 06 where bayliss beat them all.

bottom line is that you can't really compare SBK against GPs because it's apples to oranges. some guys do better at one or the other and a very few do well at both.

but the motogp riders with the exception of biaggi that switched to wsb were hardly considered competitive in motogp. where as the wsb riders that switched to motogp were at the top of there game, well most.
as for bayliss, as impresive as 06 valencia was ,it was just one race and capi was right there with him.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BigAl @ Oct 16 2007, 03:02 PM) [snapback]95597[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
when was the last time there was a WSB rider who came into moto gp/500's and was a championship contender right up until the last race in his first year?
you say WSB riders are of similar talent to moto gp but there is really only evidence to prove the contrary....

I'm assuming you are referring to Biaggi's success this year. A similar line of reasoning could be made for Bayliss' very successful return to MotoGP for Valencia last year, who this year managed to win 7 races (to the champion's 8 races) which has now been deemed deserving of a MotoGP ride.

Evidence to the contrary? That is my point don't you see? My point is that the overwhelming evidence is one sided because we have a situation where the top SBK talent is regularly "promoted" to MotoGP, but we don't have the converse situation because the top GP talent is not "promoted" to SBK. Do you understand the relevance to the argument?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drumfu @ Oct 16 2007, 03:18 PM) [snapback]95599[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
you could flip that question around and ask when the last time a GP rider went to SBK and was competitive. I'll give you Biaggi in 07, but is there anybody else?

in fact, we all remember val 06 where bayliss beat them all.

bottom line is that you can't really compare SBK against GPs because it's apples to oranges. some guys do better at one or the other and a very few do well at both.

Absolutely! This is the logical conclusion.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(roger-m @ Oct 16 2007, 03:24 PM) [snapback]95600[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
but the motogp riders with the exception of biaggi that switched to wsb were hardly considered competitive in motogp. where as the wsb riders that switched to motogp were at the top of there game, well most.
as for bayliss, as impresive as 06 valencia was ,it was just one race and capi was right there with him.

Yes my friend, I agree. Now ask yourself, when has a top MotoGP guy at the top of his game gone to SBK anywhere (WSBK, AMA, BSB)? Zero, so it’s hard to compare evidence to the contrary, because, frankly, there isn't any. That's my point.

And to further make my point. Biaggi was considered competitive in MotoGP, about as competitive as he has been in WSBK, so far. Always the bridesmaid.

well acording to yamaha specs, the 800cc yamaha started its life with 200bhp im not sure what it is now (probably 201 bhp lol )but here are the specs, sorry about the weird looking text but i had to get it translated.


2007 Yamaha YZR-M1 specifications Table:

engine - 4-stroke water-cooled engine forms tied 4-cylinder DOHC 16 valve
bore x stroke --
壓縮比 － Compression ratio --
總排氣量 800cc The total discharge capacity 800cc
最高馬力 約200匹(bhp) 200 maximum horsepower (bhp)
極速 320kmh以上
燃油供應 電子燃油噴注系統
點火 Magneti Marelli可調記載式- NGK火嘴
油缸容量 21L Ultimate 320kmh above
fuel supply electronic fuel injection system
Ignition Magneti Marelli adjustable-documented - NGK fire mouth
fuel tank capacity 21L

i read somewhere that the 990cc was about 230-240 bhp

990 m1

engine capacity 176kw
displacement 990ccm
speed 345kph
bhp 230-240bhp

come on guys any specs you read from the manufactuers about max hp are not gonna be the real numbers! They keep them to themselfs! I see 240hp as a realistic number for some of 800s

Have you ever heard a motogp bike roar?

Once you hear one you will understand to never compare the two again.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Racejumkie @ Oct 16 2007, 11:34 PM) [snapback]95601[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>

Yes my friend, I agree. Now ask yourself, when has a top MotoGP guy at the top of his game gone to SBK anywhere (WSBK, AMA, BSB)? Zero, so it’s hard to compare evidence to the contrary, because, frankly, there isn't any. That's my point.

And to further make my point. Biaggi was considered competitive in MotoGP, about as competitive as he has been in WSBK, so far. Always the bridesmaid.

well as a fan i can only say it as i see it. what i see is top wsb riders including world champions land .... rides in motogp, and midpack motogp riders land good wsb rides and its because of this motogp riders appear to be worth more.
your right tho ,there is no "Evidence" to support that either is better than the other. motogp and wsb bikes are 2 different animals to ride so unless you have raced in both series it would be imposable to truly compare riders worth.
the other thing that makes motogp look like the top series with the top riders is, we say wsb is a retirement home for failed motogp riders and a top wsb rider deserve's a motogp seat, this indicates the pecking order to me.

i don't think the 800's are putting up as much peak HP as the 990's were (240-250hp as published by most manufacturers).

the new engines would have to rev higher to match the same peak hp as the liters were (and they could), but given the reduced fuel capacity, most manufacturers won't be going for that.

their main concern would be managing that narrower power band provided by the 800's, so electronic 'interference' (i.e. engine management) is the name of the game

Australian Motorcycle News tested the Desmosedici GP6 without the screamer configuration(so it was less powerful) and they explained that it was 195kw. This is around 270HP.


It's logical that the GP7 800 with the screamer firing format has at least 240BHP.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RCV600RR @ Oct 17 2007, 10:21 AM) [snapback]95635[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Australian Motorcycle News tested the Desmosedici GP6 without the screamer configuration(so it was less powerful) and they explained that it was 195kw. This is around 270HP.
It's logical that the GP7 800 with the screamer firing format has at least 240BHP.

261.49926243797773 or 265.12619735069586 ps to be exact

World superbikes has been running for 20 years and it has been clear from the start, through to now that riders who have not been good enough for GP can win races and championships. The opposite is not true because the best riders are all attracted to the biggest challange and the best bikes, that is motpgp.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Racejumkie @ Oct 16 2007, 09:59 PM) [snapback]95596[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Considering that Hayden just barely won, and only had only two wins, less than Rossi, and Melandri, Caprossi down only by five points, and Pedrosa (first year rookie in Moto GP) had equal wins and was in the hunt for the championship the entire year, even up to the Penultimate event.


Fixed to apply to another scenario.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RCV600RR @ Oct 17 2007, 06:21 AM) [snapback]95635[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Australian Motorcycle News tested the Desmosedici GP6 without the screamer configuration(so it was less powerful) and they explained that it was 195kw. This is around 270HP.
It's logical that the GP7 800 with the screamer firing format has at least 240BHP.


Wow

Do you have a link or something else ?

I'm really interested on it.

More and more I see this "gossip" is, actually, more real than we think.

Hmm....

I wonder if 309 would be the maximum of that engine, but in race the team cut down the power a lot, to smooth the power delivery.

They used twin pulse firing order to reduce the power proposiltally.

MotoGP is the pinnacle of the sport and the best series. Ask any racer where they want to compete and it's the top level at motoGP. It doesn't always translate to the best racing but it's still the top series.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gui22a @ Oct 18 2007, 10:16 AM) [snapback]95742[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Wow

Do you have a link or something else ?

I'm really interested on it.

More and more I see this "gossip" is, actually, more real than we think.

Hmm....

I wonder if 309 would be the maximum of that engine, but in race the team cut down the power a lot, to smooth the power delivery.

They used twin pulse firing order to reduce the power proposiltally.

AMCN is a printed publication(In other words, it's a magazine).

I can look for the article and scan it for you if you wish. FYI, I think they had the RCV211V quoted at around 190kW.

Certainly, the fuel capacity restrictions meant that the power needed to be sacrificed in order to ensure the fuel supply was adequate for te duration of a race. Additionally, too much over 270 HP would have a detrimental effect on tyre wear. The aim of the engineers was to sacrifice a few kW for smoother power delivery and improved tractability.